Corona Virus: It's a Marathon, Not a Sprint

[Paingod]

It sounds very much like I actually should just give up and wear my woodworking mask with better filters attached to it. I already know I can wear it for hours at a time without issue... and I'm not keen on the idea of constantly disposing of mask after mask after mask while trying to also keep them tied tightly to my face.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Good news, stessier: the first cases of the South African variant have been found in South Carolina!

[Paingod]

I'm looking forward to the Texas variant. The defining trait will be a thick drawl of snot, but the virus itself is so big it can't get through even normal cotton masks.

[Blackhawk]

I have these, but the price has jumped significantly in the last ~3 weeks. I'm only using them when I'm forced into an indoor environment - like picking up takeout food. If I'm outdoors (picking up curbside groceries), I just use a layered fabric mask and maintain my aura of "stay back".

So, here's one of those questions where the 'correct' answer is black and white, but I'm asking for reasonable input. I typically go out twice a week, once to a Super Wal-Mart for about 90 minutes, once to a regular Wal-Mart for maybe 10 minutes. The 'correct' answer (invariably given by people with big bank accounts who live in places with grocery delivery) is that any time you gaze directly at a disposable mask, you toss it. But what's reasonable? If my son and I stop for ten minutes after school for some jugs of water for tea, I can't afford to wear an expensive mask. Those good masks are $2 a shot, which means using something like that would cost us $4 for 10 minutes. Once or twice a week. On our budget, that adds up quick.

Assuming it's stored in a bag, and that we're not rubbing it in our eyes, how many hours can one reasonably get out of a mask before it's too contaminated to use? All the research I found was based around a medical setting where exposure was essentially guaranteed, not a huge grocery store where it was a mere possibility. Even if we made an extra quick stop during the week, that would be less than two hours total wear time.

I'm rambling. Let me get to the point. Is it reasonable to through one mask each per week (start a mask after shopping day, which means one or two ten-minute wears, then shopping day (90 minutes), then tossing the mask right after we get out of the store with a grand total of less than two hours wear. Or would two weeks (~3.5 hours total wear) be reasonable? If so, one of those boxes of masks could last us 25 (or 50) weeks, which becomes expensive, but worth it enough to be possible. The alternative being cheap cloth over discount masks that I can afford to toss by the handful.

And yes, I understand that asking Smoove this is probably like asking him if I should clean by kitchen by rubbing it with raw chicken.

[wonderpug]

It sounds very much like I actually should just give up and wear my woodworking mask with better filters attached to it. I already know I can wear it for hours at a time without issue... and I'm not keen on the idea of constantly disposing of mask after mask after mask while trying to also keep them tied tightly to my face.

The downside to that mask is that it has exhale valves. With that kind of mask you would be protecting yourself but not protecting the people around you.

[Blackhawk]

The kids school has been on hybrid since last fall (the student body is divided in half, with each half attending alternating days) with the line-in-the sand being that if we went to red status, it would be all remote. Three or four weeks ago we went to red status (Indiana has green-yellow-orange-red per county based on severity and spread, updated weekly.) The school decided that, gosh, hybrid was good enough after all. By last week, they didn't have enough teachers who weren't sick to conduct in-person classes at all, so they were forced to go fully remote. This week they had a couple of teachers back, so they went back to hybrid, still in red status.

The status update yesterday took us out of red and back into orange, the second most severe. The school responded by announcing that they were going to fully reopen the schools, all grades, all in-person, starting Monday. Masks are still required, but there is no extra ventilation, and there is no possibility of distancing with the full student body in the classrooms.

And there is absolutely *zero* that can be done about it, as the county is packed full of halfwit rednecks who are cheering the superintendent on for not listening to the lib propaganda.

And holy fuck-nuggets, my son just told me that the teachers don't require the kids to wear masks as long as they're in their seats.

[ImLawBoy]

I have these, but the price has jumped significantly in the last ~3 weeks. I'm only using them when I'm forced into an indoor environment - like picking up takeout food. If I'm outdoors (picking up curbside groceries), I just use a layered fabric mask and maintain my aura of "stay back".

So, here's one of those questions where the 'correct' answer is black and white, but I'm asking for reasonable input. I typically go out twice a week, once to a Super Wal-Mart for about 90 minutes, once to a regular Wal-Mart for maybe 10 minutes. The 'correct' answer (invariably given by people with big bank accounts who live in places with grocery delivery) is that any time you gaze directly at a disposable mask, you toss it. But what's reasonable? If my son and I stop for ten minutes after school for some jugs of water for tea, I can't afford to wear an expensive mask. Those good masks are $2 a shot, which means using something like that would cost us $4 for 10 minutes. Once or twice a week. On our budget, that adds up quick.

Assuming it's stored in a bag, and that we're not rubbing it in our eyes, how many hours can one reasonably get out of a mask before it's too contaminated to use? All the research I found was based around a medical setting where exposure was essentially guaranteed, not a huge grocery store where it was a mere possibility. Even if we made an extra quick stop during the week, that would be less than two hours total wear time.

I'm rambling. Let me get to the point. Is it reasonable to through one mask each per week (start a mask after shopping day, which means one or two ten-minute wears, then shopping day (90 minutes), then tossing the mask right after we get out of the store with a grand total of less than two hours wear. Or would two weeks (~3.5 hours total wear) be reasonable? If so, one of those boxes of masks could last us 25 (or 50) weeks, which becomes expensive, but worth it enough to be possible. The alternative being cheap cloth over discount masks that I can afford to toss by the handful.

And yes, I understand that asking Smoove this is probably like asking him if I should clean by kitchen by rubbing it with raw chicken.

Do you have cloth masks? If so, double-layer with the disposable on top. That way you can keep the disposable for the week.

[Paingod]

I'm absolutely not an official voice of reason on this, but I'll state for the record that I've re-used "disposable" masks extensively at work.

I wear them for a day and set them aside for a few days, then use them again. As long as it's not turning brown or smelling funny, I don't hesitate to re-use it after a "cooldown" period that would normally allow any COVID to die naturally. I expect that folks in economic situations where masks aren't actually disposable, even if they're made of tissue paper, may find similar solutions.

If you tell me that a disposable mask stops filtering air after a single use, I'll stop doing this.

My kids wear cloth masks to school, and those get cleaned regularly. Two days ago I picked one up and thought one of them must have been dying of lung cancer, coughing up blood in spatters. Nope. They had spaghetti for lunch at school and why bother cleaning your face when you wear a napkin?

[Smoove_B]

And yes, I understand that asking Smoove this is probably like asking him if I should clean by kitchen by rubbing it with raw chicken.

This is something being heavily debated (and I think studied), but the answer isn't easily determined. These masks were all designed to be single use and discarded. Prior to March of 2020 they were treated as such - fully disposable, mainly because they were readily available and cheap. Funny how that works....

I can tell you that I don't treat them that way at all and would say I look to wear them for about ~8 hours. The reason I use 8 hours is because that's a general standard for OSHA/NIOSH measurements and PPE requirements. From a practical standpoint then, I'm wearing them for 10-15 minutes at a clip, which means I can keep the same one in use for weeks. I am also covering mine with a cloth mask to minimize the risk of external contamination.

There's some that suggest once breathing becomes 'extra difficult" while wearing an N95 (or equivalent), that's the time to toss them. I am not sure I've ever experienced enough time wearing one where I can discern levels of difficulty - or where it's become noticeably more difficult to breathe while wearing a mask I've been re-using. Maybe if I wore them for hours at a time every single day that would be one thing, but it's not something I can sense.

[Blackhawk]

So how would they be for seven hours of wear? I'm just talking comfort this time, not contamination. Now that the school's gone insane, I'm wondering if these would be good for my son (17) to wear in class.

[The Meal]

From Smoove's double-mask link:

The basic consensus among expert double mask fans I spoke to was: put a surgical mask on first, with a cloth mask over top. Surgical masks filter well but do not fit well. A cloth mask on top of a surgical mask—especially, a cloth mask that ties around the back of your head, not one with ear loops—can pin the surgical mask down, making the whole thing fit more snuggly. “The oopmh of double masking is improving your fit,” says Leininger.

The other thing that experts say works well is to have a cloth mask with a layer of filter material in the middle.

[Blackhawk]

Smoove's other link (the one I'm asking about) isn't surgical masks. It's KN95 masks.

[The Meal]

Blackhawk, I doubt you're going to get studies that address your question. I think you'll probably have to live with "reusing is more dangerous than not" and "time of potential exposure is a key factor". You'll likely have to form your own opinion for how much (risky) reuse is sufficient.

Personally, my reuse of disposables nearly exactly matches Paingod's. If I'm making a grocery pick-up run, I'll leave my mask in the glovebox of my car to be reused in the next 7-28 days the next time I drive back to the store to pick up more groceries. I also have a general I'm-leaving-the-house disposable mask sitting on top of the fridge in the garage, that gets reused roughly once a month. Both are surgical paper masks. I've also got cloth masks in the pockets of my winter coats and stashed in my glovebox "just in case".

I know there are risks with reusing. If you're using them more often than I (very likely) then mask-borne contamination would seem the bigger concern than loss-of-efficacy.

[Daehawk]

I have a cloth mask I keep in the car to use. I only go someplace twice a month....every now and then Ill toss in a third visit. Its usually 2 weeks between mask use and at minimum 1 week. So I dont bother washing it but every month or two. Any virus would be dead before next use and breath is usually going out the top around my nose and not through it. I keep a medical disposable as back up if I forget to wash it or I feel I need to put it away to wash.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk, I doubt you're going to get studies that address your question. I think you'll probably have to live with "reusing is more dangerous than not" and "time of potential exposure is a key factor". You'll likely have to form your own opinion for how much (risky) reuse is sufficient.

Peace and love! I don't disagree with you at all. I specifically said that I couldn't find any actual data or studies that weren't built around a medical environment. That's what my post was about: Picking other people's brains for 'reasonable' wisdom rather than the hard data that I know doesn't exist. I have all these friends here who are smarter and better educated than I am. When I need to form my own opinion on something with as much potential impact as this, you can go all-in that I'll be asking those smart people their opinions first!

And I got them. Smoove's '8 hours total' combined with the idea of cycling masks means that I can make one mask last a month (or rather two last two months), which makes the expensive masks reasonable for a family of four. I'll give everybody two, wear one for a week's errands, switch to the other for the next week's, then back. It's not the level of precaution I'd take if I had all the resources in the world, but it seems like the best option I have with what I've got to work with.

[Blackhawk]

And as far as the reusable cloth masks go, I bought enough to assign one to each pair of pants. They stay with those pants, in the pocket. I never have to worry about having to grab a mask, and when I do laundry, the mask is still in the pocket and gets washed right along with the pants.

[noxiousdog]

I'm absolutely not an official voice of reason on this, but I'll state for the record that I've re-used "disposable" masks extensively at work.

I wear them for a day and set them aside for a few days, then use them again. As long as it's not turning brown or smelling funny, I don't hesitate to re-use it after a "cooldown" period that would normally allow any COVID to die naturally. I expect that folks in economic situations where masks aren't actually disposable, even if they're made of tissue paper, may find similar solutions.

If you tell me that a disposable mask stops filtering air after a single use, I'll stop doing this.

My kids wear cloth masks to school, and those get cleaned regularly. Two days ago I picked one up and thought one of them must have been dying of lung cancer, coughing up blood in spatters. Nope. They had spaghetti for lunch at school and why bother cleaning your face when you wear a napkin?

Per Steve Novella (Skeptics guide to teh Universe.. working neurologist in a hospital setting) they can be used until they get wet/damp. That would dis-configure the fibers which are protecting you.

[Smoove_B]

So how would they be for seven hours of wear? I'm just talking comfort this time, not contamination. Now that the school's gone insane, I'm wondering if these would be good for my son (17) to wear in class.

So yeah, to try and jump in, it's likely going to come down to personal experience, i.e. how he feels. The N95 (or equivalent) is a noticeable difference when trying to breathe under normal circumstances. If they have him walking to different classes, even more so. Not a "gasping for breath" scenario, but if it's fitted correctly you can definitely feel the reduction in airflow. Just sitting in a chair and wearing one isn't usually problematic.

Regarding reuse (and to back up the The Meal is saying), the CDC has really only issued guidelines for the medical profession, and so much of it is focused on their jobs and acknowledgement of the risky environments they are in.

In short, assuming they're not in an area where aerosols are being generated (like intubating someone), the initial recommendation is to follow the manufacturer's use guidelines. In practice, this likely means to not wear it more than five times:

To reduce the chances of decreased protection caused by a loss of respirator functionality, respiratory protection program managers should consult with the respirator manufacturer regarding the maximum number of donnings or uses they recommend for the N95 respirator model(s) used in that facility. If no manufacturer guidance is available, preliminary data(19, 20) suggests limiting the number of reuses to no more than five uses per device to ensure an adequate safety margin. ]

Again, that's a hospital/medical setting where there's increased risk overall. I don't think it wold be unreasonable to wear an N95 in school for 10+ days, assuming it's not being hit with contaminants in the school. Based on what you've posted, putting a disposable mask over the N95 would help to mitigate that, disposing of that daily and/or using a cloth mask over the N95 and washing it daily.

[Smoove_B]

And then we hear people who somehow jumped the line. People who are sitting at home while my wife goes into a fucking factory nearly everyday. I'm beyond aggravated.

Corruption? In NJ? You might want to sit down:

A hospital system gave COVID vaccine shots to about two dozen wealthy donors, trustees and people who were related to its executives, including young adults, at a time when only health care workers and nursing home residents were eligible, according to a published report.

...

The report, based on a vaccine registry document provided to the news organization by a whistleblower, indicated that the young-adult children of hospital executives and supervisors were also able to get the shot at a time when only front-line healthcare workers and long-term care residents were eligible for vaccines.

The hospital said some of the people received shots because there were extra doses left over at the end of the day.

This is why I said from Day ZERO the state should be in charge and everyone should be getting vaccinated by state-run vaccinations centers. The second you hand off vaccines to a 3rd party and hope they're going to do the right thing, this is exactly what you can expect. I have no doubts there are dozens of similar stories from all over the U.S. involving near-identical details.

[Isgrimnur]

Fetch my pearls and fainting couch.

[Defiant]

Corruption? In NJ? You might want to sit down:

This is why I said from Day ZERO the state should be in charge and everyone should be getting vaccinated by state-run vaccinations centers. The second you hand off vaccines to a 3rd party and hope they're going to do the right thing, this is exactly what you can expect.

Given NJ, I would expect there might be some traffic problems if it were state-run, too.

[stessier]

Good news, stessier: the first cases of the South African variant have been found in South Carolina!

Our positivity rate is down to 25%, though, so I'm sure it will be easily contained!

[malchior]

And then we hear people who somehow jumped the line. People who are sitting at home while my wife goes into a fucking factory nearly everyday. I'm beyond aggravated.

Corruption? In NJ? You might want to sit down:

A hospital system gave COVID vaccine shots to about two dozen wealthy donors, trustees and people who were related to its executives, including young adults, at a time when only health care workers and nursing home residents were eligible, according to a published report.

...

The report, based on a vaccine registry document provided to the news organization by a whistleblower, indicated that the young-adult children of hospital executives and supervisors were also able to get the shot at a time when only front-line healthcare workers and long-term care residents were eligible for vaccines.

The hospital said some of the people received shots because there were extra doses left over at the end of the day.

This is why I said from Day ZERO the state should be in charge and everyone should be getting vaccinated by state-run vaccinations centers. The second you hand off vaccines to a 3rd party and hope they're going to do the right thing, this is exactly what you can expect. I have no doubts there are dozens of similar stories from all over the U.S. involving near-identical details.

Yup. I'm in a rage at this point. We basically told her boss she isn't going in unless it is an emergency. They won't even enforce masks and they have positive cases *every week* and people are just reckless there. On top, every single one of her bosses miraculously got it through their drug deals. I don't think the state running it would have been better to be honest. It isn't like they are pure driven snow either.

I was in the middle of typing this and my wife just found out that one of the lines had 6 cases today. Her QA people all got exposed but production must go on.

[Isgrimnur]

Time for a union.

[malchior]

Time for a union.

Those people ain't here legally.

[Smoove_B]

I don't think the state running it would have been better to be honest. It isn't like they are pure driven snow either.

There would still be problems, but the corruption would have been centralized and easy to identify. Now that the vaccine is being distributed to hospitals, private pharmacies and other "qualified agencies", all bets are off.

Perfect example. My MIL is a resident of OH. She traveled to IN and was vaccinated at a nursing/retirement home for nuns because she has connections there. I know of people in NJ that have homes in CO and FL that are trying (and have been successful) in obtaining vaccination appointments in their vacation states. Total. Chaos.

[Isgrimnur]

Time for a union.

Those people ain't here legally.

[malchior]

I don't think the state running it would have been better to be honest. It isn't like they are pure driven snow either.

There would have still be problems, but the corruption would have been centralized and easy to identify. Now that the vaccine is being distributed to hospitals, private pharmacies and other "qualified agencies", all bets are off.

Perfect example. My MIL is a resident of OH. She traveled to IN and was vaccinated at a nursing/retirement home for nuns because she has connections there. I know of people in NJ that have homes in CO and FL that are trying (and have been successful) in obtaining vaccination appointments in their vacation states. Total. Chaos.

Having grown up seeing the corruption at a very real level, I feel like the state is essentially an unaccountable black hole as well. Still I get your point. Either way, the way this is all happening is just...sad.

[malchior]

Time for a union.

Those people ain't here legally.

I'm trying not to laugh but yeah the whole thing is the worst. They aren't going to be vaccinated. Everyone knows it yet they still are like - it's 'just temps' aka undocumented labor. It is pretty gross. The more I get to know the 'wealth class' the more I see that we truly are very much in this place because we are ruled by monsters.

[RMC]

Here is a feel good story about the doses:

Feel Good story on Covid and stuck in Snow

[Alefroth]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... -guidance/

man, i do not want to have to start purchasing and using single-use disposables. won't layering two cloth ones be 'good enough'?

How does one even sort the profiteering junk from the quality masks? Amazon lists 7,000 options.

Rollingstone had a good article about N95 and KN95 masks with some links to suppliers. I ordered directly from one of the suppliers.

https://www.rollingstone.com/product-re ... e-1095998/
https://www.rollingstone.com/product-re ... s-1044184/

[$iljanus]

Oh yea, all coronavirus variants welcome here!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... -carolina/

"... the patients’ lack of travel or a connection to one another suggests that the variant is spreading in the community following an undetected introduction."

This fills me with all sorts of foreboding.

[hitbyambulance]

Oh yea, all coronavirus variants welcome here!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... -carolina/

"... the patients’ lack of travel or a connection to one another suggests that the variant is spreading in the community following an undetected introduction."

This fills me with all sorts of foreboding.

given the lackadaisical state of tracking in the US and the indifference of international travelers, this was pretty much a foregone occurrence anyways.

[malchior]

What the heck has gone wrong with Nate Silver. This isn't helpful right now.

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/statu ... 5801551875

[Smoove_B]

Nate Silver, never missing a chance to inject himself in a hot topic that he knows nothing about. Looking forward to seeing him dragged; I suppose that's something.

[El Guapo]

What is the current thinking with regards to additional boosters? I have seen other people make similar speculation, that we may need to do additional boosters to deal with variants as they arrive. Is that likely? What's the main thinking on that?

I'm also not clear on the difference (if any) between "boosters" to deal with variants, and separate vaccines to address variants.

[Smoove_B]

Right, there's a number of issues going on and the data for the J&J vaccine is now complicating the issue even more. For example, I had to listen to my mother (a recent vaccine expert, apparently) get angry over the results - wondering how or why a vaccine with "such a low success rate" could be approved for use.

Many of our existing routine vaccines require boosters - people are mostly familiar with Tetanus or DPT, the P (Pertussis, or "whooping cough") in particular. Here, the initial shot's benefit fades over time (for various reasons) and your immune system might not mount an appropriate protective response if you have a wild exposure. Maybe it lasts 5 years. Maybe 10. Without conducting a test, we have no idea if someone is immune, so depending on the event (you scrape your knee while hiking) or risk (you're around kids) the doctor is going to offer a booster to 'kickstart" a reminder to your immune system.

For SARS-CoV-2, we have no idea as to how the vaccine will promote long-term immunity. ignoring all the variants, the vaccine might only provide a 3 year reliable immune response. Or maybe it's 2...or 10 - no idea. Here a booster would work like one we provide for Tetanus - offered at some point in the future (based on risk or maybe a resurgence) to kickstart the immune system because it's (1) cheaper and (2) easier than a test.

On the other hand, we now have the variants for SARS-CoV-2 and there's some concern over whether or not the existing vaccinations will offer protection. Here the booster is more like a "patch" that tries to address physiological changes to the virus and then teach your immune system a new way to recognize and respond to this variant.

We might need both. We might only need one; it's too early to tell but it's being monitored. Speculating about it now and undermining the efficacy of the existing vaccinations is the wrong take here in all cases.

[El Guapo]

That's helpful. Is there any additional planning that would be needed to apply "patch" shots for variants, or would that just be a matter of leaving the vaccine distribution network more or less in place to apply those shots as well?

[Smoove_B]

That's helpful. Is there any additional planning that would be needed to apply "patch" shots for variants, or would that just be a matter of leaving the vaccine distribution network more or less in place to apply those shots as well?

Here we'd be relying on the administrative network that is (ideally) able to quickly and easily identify the people that need to get this variant booster. My assumption is that at some point the vaccination process will include the variant elements as part of the original vaccination process (in the same way that the current influenza vaccinations protect against multiple strains) and so then after a certain date, people vaccinated will be protected against numerous strains. Assuming that's true, we need to be able to identify and coordinate contacting all the people that have been vaccinated before that date to get them that booster.

Depending on when that rolls out and what the general pandemic looks like, it could be something that's happening at larger vaccination centers -or- coordinated through smaller pharmacies or vaccination sites. It might not even be something that's widely recommended either - so much depends (I think) on how much virus is circulating. The experiment is changing and it's probably too early to say exactly what's in store until mass vaccinations continue and we can see how it impacts the pandemic (nationwide, regionally, in each state, around the world).

In short, there's noting new we'd need to create, no. Ideally, all of these networks and delivery methods would still be up and running in some fashion.

I know I've been saying it for almost a year now, but so much of the problem is the insane level of virus circulating here in the U.S. and worldwide. It's a numbers game and we (humans) are losing. If we could just get circulating virus levels down to manageable levels, it would change everything. Until then?

[Isgrimnur]