Police Reform in America

[Zarathud]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

[LordMortis]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Growing up, I remember listening to "Cop Killer" and the all of the controversy it caused, even at a personal level. I'm not sure there is that much of a difference. Only one group really seems like victims and the other group makes themselves out to be victims. Again, it doesn't help the group I have no empathy for tried to take away my vote. That made it very personal and intensified both where my empathy lies and where it doesn't.

[stimpy]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

[Combustible Lemur]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Its not semantics. Its one of the fundamental premises of the civil rights movements. Jon Lewis's good trouble. No justice, no peace. Confrontation isn't violence. Protest isnt riot. The big lie is NOT the same as systemic police brutality. Losing an election is not the same as ongoing lack of accountability for dead black and brown people. Civil disobedience is a fundamental part of our nation. It also entails commiting illegal acts to confront law enforcment into displaying injustice.
It's not using lies to instigate a minority insurrection against a legitimate election.

Peoples' inability to identify the nuance between the two is a powerful weapon in the ongoing fight against accountability and to continue justice system inequality.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[stimpy]

So in the context of where and when Waters made her statement, what do you think she was referring to when she said "be more confrontational" to a bunch of peaceful protestors? Write letters? Angry tweets? Hold your breath and throw a tantrum?

[Zarathud]

One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest.

This is bullshit of the highest degree, and false equivalency. Protesting over a person’s death and lynching is very different from protesting over losing an election. Storming a government building is different than storming the public streets. Insurrection to overthrow the government is different than protests over police killings.

Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

I might believe you if you applied the same standards to police and Republicans that you do to President Biden and Democrats. Or didn’t parrot Fox News talking points for the day.

[stimpy]

I saw the video and was wondering who that was that was running right in front of the cop before the cop pushed him out of the way.
Makes sense.

On the COPA site they have the partner's bodycam. He goes down and she cuffs him without resistance. He knew the kid had the gun and was just trying to slow their pursuit.

Actually a smart move. Too bad it didnt end well for his homie. I hope he feels remorse.

And.....he's back on the streets.
Gotta love our judicial system......and this part "During a hearing in his case on gun charges on Monday, a Cook County judge said Roman posted his $15,000 bail with the help of the nonprofit Chicago Community Bond Fund." Nice job helping him get out.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/04/19 ... -shooting/

[hepcat]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Your outrage meter is in the red again. Can I get you a lounge chair and a diet Fresca?

I think you're the angriest person on OO. I worry about you, man.

[Unagi]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

I can’t recall you showing this much anger at Trump’s cry for the attempted insurrection.

In fact, you seem to have a really great ability to be vocally critical of Dems over Reps, and yet your whole point here is that -we- are hypocrites ??

[Combustible Lemur]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Your outrage meter is in the red again. Can I get you a lounge chair and a diet Fresca?

I think you're the angriest person on OO. I worry about you, man.

Psst, fresca is already diet..... And delicious.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[stimpy]

Someone has to be counterpoint to all the one-sidedness in this forum.

I've elected myself and there are no term limits.

[malchior]

I saw the video and was wondering who that was that was running right in front of the cop before the cop pushed him out of the way.
Makes sense.

On the COPA site they have the partner's bodycam. He goes down and she cuffs him without resistance. He knew the kid had the gun and was just trying to slow their pursuit.

Actually a smart move. Too bad it didnt end well for his homie. I hope he feels remorse.

And.....he's back on the streets.
Gotta love our judicial system......and this part "During a hearing in his case on gun charges on Monday, a Cook County judge said Roman posted his $15,000 bail with the help of the nonprofit Chicago Community Bond Fund." Nice job helping him get out.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/04/19 ... -shooting/

I mean due process is due process. He posted bond. Are you arguing the bond was too low? Should he have been ineligible for bail? If so, what's your basis for believing this?

[stimpy]

I can’t recall you showing this much anger at Trump’s cry for the attempted insurrection.

Exactly my point. I didnt need to show any anger at that. You guys had that well covered.
But when it comes to Democrats acting out......crickets from you all.
Waters comments being a case in point.

[LordMortis]

I might believe you if you applied the same standards to police and Republicans that you do to President Biden and Democrats. Or didn’t parrot Fox News talking points for the day.

I try to give the benefit of the doubt. It's not very easy. I've been subjected faux libertarian faux double standard indignation and the delusion that sophistry is irrefutable logic for far too long. They make it hard for me accept my own libertarian leanings. Trying to negate my vote may very well have been the thread pulled on the tapestry of my ability to do so. It's kinda the Popehat of listening to attacks on democratic party by those that both sides to prop up the GOP. I'm a single issue voter and my single issue is my ability to have my vote count.

[stimpy]

I saw the video and was wondering who that was that was running right in front of the cop before the cop pushed him out of the way.
Makes sense.

On the COPA site they have the partner's bodycam. He goes down and she cuffs him without resistance. He knew the kid had the gun and was just trying to slow their pursuit.

Actually a smart move. Too bad it didnt end well for his homie. I hope he feels remorse.

And.....he's back on the streets.
Gotta love our judicial system......and this part "During a hearing in his case on gun charges on Monday, a Cook County judge said Roman posted his $15,000 bail with the help of the nonprofit Chicago Community Bond Fund." Nice job helping him get out.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/04/19 ... -shooting/

I mean due process is due process. He posted bond. Are you arguing the bond was too low? Should he have been ineligible for bail? If so, what's your basis for believing this?

Did you read the article?
"Roman, 21, was arrested earlier this month in Maywood, in relation to a probation violation warrant. He is charged with felony reckless discharge of a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, and felony endangerment of a child.

"Roman has a prior felony record for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and at the time of the shooting was on probation out of Skokie. He failed to appear in court in Skokie earlier this month, prompting a warrant that led to his arrest at his mother’s house earlier this month, prosecutors said."

Model citizen......

[UsulofDoom]

"Roman, 21, was arrested earlier this month in Maywood, in relation to a probation violation warrant. He is charged with felony reckless discharge of a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, and felony endangerment of a child.
During a hearing in his case on gun charges on Monday, a Cook County judge said Roman posted his $15,000 bail with the help of the nonprofit Chicago Community Bond Fund. Roman also posted $25,000 bail in an earlier but separate gun case. It was not immediately clear how soon Roman could be released from custody."

Why do we have laws? He broke probation and was out on the street. Then they set bail at 15K so he can be out again. What a joke.

[Unagi]

I can’t recall you showing this much anger at Trump’s cry for the attempted insurrection.

Exactly my point. I didnt need to show any anger at that. You guys had that well covered.
But when it comes to Democrats acting out......crickets from you all.
Waters comments being a case in point.

Bull. You don’t let us ‘cover your anger’.
It’s more like you just don’t actually give a shit.

[stimpy]

I can’t recall you showing this much anger at Trump’s cry for the attempted insurrection.

Exactly my point. I didnt need to show any anger at that. You guys had that well covered.
But when it comes to Democrats acting out......crickets from you all.
Waters comments being a case in point.

Bull. You don’t let us ‘cover your anger’.
It’s more like you just don’t actually give a shit.

Believe what ever makes you able to lay your little head down on Mommy's lap at night.
Makes no difference to me who does or doesnt believe me. I speak what I feel and if you cant or wont understand it, so be it.
I was never one to jump on a dogpile.

[malchior]

Did you read the article?
"Roman, 21, was arrested earlier this month in Maywood, in relation to a probation violation warrant. He is charged with felony reckless discharge of a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, and felony endangerment of a child.

"Roman has a prior felony record for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and at the time of the shooting was on probation out of Skokie. He failed to appear in court in Skokie earlier this month, prompting a warrant that led to his arrest at his mother’s house earlier this month, prosecutors said."

Model citizen......

I did read it. Again what is your basis for opposing it other than you' think it is wrong. Perhaps the level of bail was too low considering the previous charges but I don't know. I'm not going to get outraged over a judge who does this everyday doing a routine task. Show me some evidence that low bail leads to more crime, that this judge is more lenient than others, or something tangible and I'm on board. Otherwise, it just comes across as outrage for the sake of it.

Edit: I'll leave this here for what it is because the interceding posts show this is pointless.

[Little Raven]

Compliance Will Not Save Me

The latest from Ibram Kendi. It's...not a very optimistic take.

Then again, the racist fear of the dangerous dark body governs—as it has since the days of slavery. As divided as many conservatives, moderates, and liberals are on other matters, they remain largely united by their fear of roaming dark bodies, and vulnerable to fearmongering by police officials, or by former President Donald Trump when he says, “Without police, there is chaos.”

The American people can’t see all the chaos that police cause: the police violence, the nonviolent and violent demonstrations against police violence, the police violence at the police-violence demonstrations. This is what the historian Elizabeth Hinton deftly documents and calls “the cycle” in her forthcoming book, America on Fire.

Centrists, liberals, and many progressives decried the building of Trump’s border wall to keep out the “animals,” “criminals,” and “rapists” from “shithole” countries. But then, in their hypocrisy, many decried calls to remove the wall of American policing that they believe protects them from the animals and super-predators and rapists of color. Within their cloud of fear, they have come to believe that armed forces, powerful prosecutors, and prison cells somehow prevent and control violent crime better than providing jobs, resources, and opportunities to people who have been deprived of them. Within their cloud of fear, they have come to believe that police violence is caused by a lack of compliance, rather than seeing it as the violent son of American slavery.

When will the American people realize what cellphone videos keep showing them, what body cameras keep recording, what the graveyards of history keep reporting? Black and brown people’s defiance is not the problem. Our compliance is not the solution.

Police defiance of our humanity is the problem. American defiance of our right to live is the problem. Political compliance—to abolish American policing as we know it—is the solution.

There may be some nuance between "abolish American policing as we know it" and "abolish the police," but Kendi declines to elaborate, and I suspect that's intentional.

[Unagi]

I can’t recall you showing this much anger at Trump’s cry for the attempted insurrection.

Exactly my point. I didnt need to show any anger at that. You guys had that well covered.
But when it comes to Democrats acting out......crickets from you all.
Waters comments being a case in point.

Bull. You don’t let us ‘cover your anger’.
It’s more like you just don’t actually give a shit.

Believe what ever makes you able to lay your little head down on Mommy's lap at night.
Makes no difference to me who does or doesnt believe me. I speak what I feel and if you cant or wont understand it, so be it.
I was never one to jump on a dogpile.

You’ve never been very genuine.

[stimpy]

I can’t recall you showing this much anger at Trump’s cry for the attempted insurrection.

Exactly my point. I didnt need to show any anger at that. You guys had that well covered.
But when it comes to Democrats acting out......crickets from you all.
Waters comments being a case in point.

Bull. You don’t let us ‘cover your anger’.
It’s more like you just don’t actually give a shit.

Believe what ever makes you able to lay your little head down on Mommy's lap at night.
Makes no difference to me who does or doesnt believe me. I speak what I feel and if you cant or wont understand it, so be it.
I was never one to jump on a dogpile.

You’ve never been very genuine.

In your opinion, which again......

[Jaymann]

Waters' comments were ill advised. I understand her frustration over this never ending police brutality nightmare, but it could have been phrased with more nuance.

[malchior]

Compliance Will Not Save Me

The latest from Ibram Kendi. It's...not a very optimistic take.

... snip ...

There may be some nuance between "abolish American policing as we know it" and "abolish the police," but Kendi declines to elaborate, and I suspect that's intentional.

This is starting to become a tricky area to navigate. I get the point of provocation that telling people to imagine a world without police looks like. It perhaps gets the reader to focus on what the function should be or explain that no police is better than the constant waves of oppression or terror they face every day are. In other words, it should be a foil for describing the bounds of reform. When they talk about it as a real policy they lose me quickly.

[Combustible Lemur]

So in the context of where and when Waters made her statement, what do you think she was referring to when she said "be more confrontational" to a bunch of peaceful protestors? Write letters? Angry tweets? Hold your breath and throw a tantrum?

Your flippant retort demonstrates ignorance. So i will presume you dont understand civil disobediencd and the tradition of civil unrest in the civil right movement.

Whether they are peaceful or not I've seen no indication she was promoting violence. That being said, non-violence is not passive. Breaking curfew and confronting police lines is illegal. Thats the point. It is designed to instigate the police to display injustice. By provoking law enforcement to put their methods and tactics on the news the national attention gets rapt for a moment, and people pay attention. The double standards are put on display. To be arrested is the point.

Inversely when talking about Jan 6 the incitement was not meant as a provocation to display injust practices, it was a seige intended to take hostages and extort an illegal outcome. They "weren't supposed to be arrested".

On the ground,
leadership of one group is promoting active non violence and organizing confrontational engagements that are being exacerbated by unorganized individuals lashing out in violent and un endorsed behaviors (looting/rioting)

Leadership of the other is using a fundamental and intentional lie to create a disorganized violent insurrection that provided cover for unaffiliated but organized militias instigated to raiding the US capitol.

Maybe Maxine Waters shouldn't have said what she said. But the false equivalency is innacurate.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[stimpy]

Did you read the article?
"Roman, 21, was arrested earlier this month in Maywood, in relation to a probation violation warrant. He is charged with felony reckless discharge of a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, and felony endangerment of a child.

"Roman has a prior felony record for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and at the time of the shooting was on probation out of Skokie. He failed to appear in court in Skokie earlier this month, prompting a warrant that led to his arrest at his mother’s house earlier this month, prosecutors said."

Model citizen......

I did read it. Again what is your basis for opposing it other than you' think it is wrong. Perhaps the level of bail was too low considering the previous charges but I don't know. I'm not going to get outraged over a judge who does this everyday doing a routine task. Show me some evidence that low bail leads to more crime, that this judge is more lenient than others, or something tangible and I'm on board. Otherwise, it just comes across as outrage for the sake of it.

Edit: I'll leave this here for what it is because the interceding posts show this is pointless.

Does he bear no responsibility for handing the gun to a minor and the subsequent killing of that minor because he had possession of that gun?
I though that if a crime is committed that results in a death, all parties involved in the crime are held responsible for the death.
Why that isnt the case here, I have no idea. But if ever it should be, I would think this is it.

[Blackhawk]

Someone has to be counterpoint to all the one-sidedness in this forum.

I've elected myself and there are no term limits.

I agree, we do need a counterpoint. Too bad that's not what you're doing.

See, the counterpoint to rational arguments is rational arguments, not angry rants that ignore reality or distort facts.

[Isgrimnur]

[ImLawBoy]

Just here to point out that the point of bond is not to keep someone in jail. It's to provide some level of assurance that the person accused of a crime will report to court.

[Jaymon]

Going back to Grifman from earlier. Following police instructions is irrelevant if you are black. Thats the core piece you are missing. Following instructions/following rules/complying only works if you are white. Years and years of experience has shown time and time again, if you are black you could get arrested or shot even if you do exactly what you are told. It literally doesn't matter. They say, get your registration, you reach for the glove box, they shoot you because they thought you were reaching for a gun. They say turn around and kneel down, you turn around, they shoot you because they thought you were going to run instead of kneel. They say put your hands up, your raise your hands up, they shoot you for making an aggressive gesture. The laws don't work the same for black people as they do for white people. They police don't act the same for black people as they do for white people. Grifman, your stance that they should have followed instructions, comes from a place of privilege. Only those with a chance of being treated fairly would consider that following instructions is a viable choice. The protests, the BLM movement, the cries against injustice, these are coming because black people have suffered for years. Repeated, consistent, deeply ingrained unjust acts from the hands of police.

For a white person a speeding ticket is an annoyance. For a black person, it is potentially life threatening. It is two separate systems of policing.
Enough is enough, this is America, justice should be for all, not just for the white.

[stimpy]

Just here to point out that the point of bond is not to keep someone in jail. It's to provide some level of assurance that the person accused of a crime will report to court.

Which he already demonstrated his unwillingness to do.

[stimpy]

Someone has to be counterpoint to all the one-sidedness in this forum.

I've elected myself and there are no term limits.

I agree, we do need a counterpoint. Too bad that's not what you're doing.

See, the counterpoint to rational arguments is rational arguments, not angry rants that ignore reality or distort facts.

Cmon.....what did I post that ignores reality or distorts fact?

[LawBeefaroni]

Going back to Grifman from earlier. Following police instructions is irrelevant if you are black. Thats the core piece you are missing. Following instructions/following rules/complying only works if you are white. Years and years of experience has shown time and time again, if you are black you could get arrested or shot even if you do exactly what you are told. It literally doesn't matter. They say, get your registration, you reach for the glove box, they shoot you because they thought you were reaching for a gun. They say turn around and kneel down, you turn around, they shoot you because they thought you were going to run instead of kneel. They say put your hands up, your raise your hands up, they shoot you for making an aggressive gesture. The laws don't work the same for black people as they do for white people. They police don't act the same for black people as they do for white people. Grifman, your stance that they should have followed instructions, comes from a place of privilege. Only those with a chance of being treated fairly would consider that following instructions is a viable choice. The protests, the BLM movement, the cries against injustice, these are coming because black people have suffered for years. Repeated, consistent, deeply ingrained unjust acts from the hands of police.

For a white person a speeding ticket is an annoyance. For a black person, it is potentially life threatening. It is two separate systems of policing.
Enough is enough, this is America, justice should be for all, not just for the white.

There are most definitely inequities and profiling but this is hyperbole.

Following police instructions isn't irrelevant if you're black (or white or anything else). Ask any black person who complied and wasn't shot, abused, or detained. (I know, that's a low bar but hyperbole tends to set them low)

As someone who is extremely conscious of racial stereotyping and who has been held at gunpoint by police more than once in my life, I think that stating that compliance is meaningless is irresponsible. I have actually practiced being on the recieving end of a traffic stop several times. Can't say whether it has saved my life but has certainty made stops go smoothly.

[UsulofDoom]

Going back to Grifman from earlier. Following police instructions is irrelevant if you are black. Thats the core piece you are missing. Following instructions/following rules/complying only works if you are white. Years and years of experience has shown time and time again, if you are black you could get arrested or shot even if you do exactly what you are told. It literally doesn't matter. They say, get your registration, you reach for the glove box, they shoot you because they thought you were reaching for a gun. They say turn around and kneel down, you turn around, they shoot you because they thought you were going to run instead of kneel. They say put your hands up, your raise your hands up, they shoot you for making an aggressive gesture. The laws don't work the same for black people as they do for white people. They police don't act the same for black people as they do for white people. Grifman, your stance that they should have followed instructions, comes from a place of privilege. Only those with a chance of being treated fairly would consider that following instructions is a viable choice. The protests, the BLM movement, the cries against injustice, these are coming because black people have suffered for years. Repeated, consistent, deeply ingrained unjust acts from the hands of police.

For a white person a speeding ticket is an annoyance. For a black person, it is potentially life threatening. It is two separate systems of policing.
Enough is enough, this is America, justice should be for all, not just for the white.

More whites are killed by police then blacks and Hispanic combined. So it's not a free pass.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

[Isgrimnur]

More whites are killed by police then blacks and Hispanic combined. So it's not a free pass.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

There's also a lot more white people.

[Alefroth]

So in the context of where and when Waters made her statement, what do you think she was referring to when she said "be more confrontational" to a bunch of peaceful protestors? Write letters? Angry tweets? Hold your breath and throw a tantrum?

What do YOU think she was referring to?

[malchior]

More whites are killed by police then blacks and Hispanic combined. So it's not a free pass.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... -database/

There's also a lot more white people.

Exactly. If I remember it's twice the rate per capita black vs. white.

[Smoove_B]

Once again, Florida, as Governor DeSantis signs anti-riot bill into law:

“It is the strongest anti-rioting, pro-law enforcement piece of legislation in the country, and there’s just nothing even close,” DeSantis told reporters.

The governor said the new law does multiple things, including providing stiffer penalties for those arrested during riots and holding local governments accountable if they order police to stand down during protests that turn chaotic.

According to the governor, this will allow people to sue local governments for injuries or property damage sustained during these types of incidents.

DeSantis said the law also prevents local governments from defunding law enforcement agencies, and said the idea to do so is “insane.”

[malchior]

The Chauvin trial off to the jury who was instructed to review their notes because they don't have access to transcripts. I dealt with that in a 2-day trial and people got basic facts wrong. It'll be a fun deliberation after a couple weeks long murder trial with these kind of stakes.

[Max Peck]

Is there a good reason that a jury isn't given access to any transcripts? I know nothing about court proceedings, but allowing a jury to review a transcript of testimony seems far superior than forcing them to rely on their memory and any notes they bother to take.