Police Reform in America

[malchior]

Is there a good reason that a jury isn't given access to any transcripts? I know nothing about court proceedings, but allowing a jury to review a transcript of testimony seems far superior than forcing them to rely on their memory and any notes they bother to take.

At the time I was flabbergasted by it but many jurisdictions do this. I forget the justifications that a lawyer friend told me about why this was the case. I remember my reaction was that I thought it was stupid. Especially considering how our deliberations went. In my case 7 of us agreed we heard someone admit on the stand that they did 'the thing' at the heart of the case and several argued we got it wrong. We asked for transcripts or a playback or whatever and was told the same thing, "Use our notes and recollections." In the end all we could do was agree to disagree.

[Kurth]

Judge in Derek Chauvin trial says Rep. Maxine Waters' comments may be grounds for appeal

Waters really fucked up.

[hepcat]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Your outrage meter is in the red again. Can I get you a lounge chair and a diet Fresca?

I think you're the angriest person on OO. I worry about you, man.

Psst, fresca is already diet..... And delicious.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

I did not know that. Also, I didn’t know zucchini was a fruit until about 5 hours ago. I feel like I can leave this earth now as I really don’t think there’s much more to learn at this point.

[malchior]

Judge in Derek Chauvin trial says Rep. Maxine Waters' comments may be grounds for appeal

Waters really fucked up.

I think this was really iffy by the judge. I saw this in real time and thought he might be out of line. Moreso that article is written very...strangely to me. The article reads like the judge was responding to Nelson talking about Waters specifically. Instead, the judge brought up Waters independently. The defense motion for a mistrial referenced her comment's circumspectly. The judge dove in and decided to chastise Waters during his ruling.

In context, it's a bit interesting since the judge rejected sequestration and instead instructed the jury to not watch tv or read the news. Unless Nelson can prove a juror was influenced this seems to be a reach. Additionally, a bunch of the lawsplainer's I follow have said throughout that the judge has gently been putting his thumb on the scale in Chauvin's favor and this didn't mean much but indicates there is something there. For example, Cahill allowed Nelson to talk about Chauvin's state of mind during the incident though he chose not to put Chauvin on the stand.

Where Waters messed up IMO is she gives the right all sorts of ammo if Chauvin is found guilty.

[Skinypupy]

Judge in Derek Chauvin trial says Rep. Maxine Waters' comments may be grounds for appeal

Waters really fucked up.

At best, this is an entirely unforced error. It gives unnecessary ammo, regardless of the outcome.

At worst, it endangers the entire case, along with who knows what else come out of it as a result (I.e. large likelihood of violence if the case gets tossed)

While I may agree with some of Waters’ general sentiment (the fight for equal Justice must continue regardless of the outcome here), the way she went about it is all sorts of stupid.

[stimpy]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Your outrage meter is in the red again. Can I get you a lounge chair and a diet Fresca?

I think you're the angriest person on OO. I worry about you, man.

Psst, fresca is already diet..... And delicious.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

I did not know that. Also, I didn’t know zucchini was a fruit until about 5 hours ago. I feel like I can leave this earth now as I really don’t think there’s much more to learn at this point.

But this matter is okay to joke about, huh?

[stimpy]

So in the context of where and when Waters made her statement, what do you think she was referring to when she said "be more confrontational" to a bunch of peaceful protestors? Write letters? Angry tweets? Hold your breath and throw a tantrum?

What do YOU think she was referring to?

Apparently the same thing the judge in this case thinks.

[hepcat]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Your outrage meter is in the red again. Can I get you a lounge chair and a diet Fresca?

I think you're the angriest person on OO. I worry about you, man.

Psst, fresca is already diet..... And delicious.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

I did not know that. Also, I didn’t know zucchini was a fruit until about 5 hours ago. I feel like I can leave this earth now as I really don’t think there’s much more to learn at this point.

But this matter is okay to joke about, huh?

Yes. Your temper tantrums are always fair game.

[stimpy]

There is a difference between protesting “in the streets” and being “confrontational” and “storming the capital” to “hang Pence.”

Try this argument again if a Democrat calls for the officer to be lynched and the judge ousted.

Bullshit. It's semantics. Are you really that far up the Democrats asses? One politician calling for civil unrest is no different than any other politician calling for civil unrest. Unless, of course, you support Water's call for violence, which you seem to be.
Neither side should be engaging in it and both sides should be condemned when they do.

Your outrage meter is in the red again. Can I get you a lounge chair and a diet Fresca?

I think you're the angriest person on OO. I worry about you, man.

Psst, fresca is already diet..... And delicious.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

I did not know that. Also, I didn’t know zucchini was a fruit until about 5 hours ago. I feel like I can leave this earth now as I really don’t think there’s much more to learn at this point.

But this matter is okay to joke about, huh?

Yes. Your temper tantrums are always fair game.

Yeah....avoid the subject matter and laugh away......

[hepcat]

You’ll joke about children getting shot, but you throw yet another temper tantrum over a politician saying something stupid?

You have...interesting priorities.

[stimpy]

You’ll joke about children getting shot, but you throw yet another temper tantrum over a politician saying something stupid?

You have...interesting priorities.

You're fucking delusional if you equate my post with joking about children getting shot.
The joke is thinking we can reform the problem away......get it?

[hepcat]

Hmmmm...makes me wonder why you didn’t just write that then.

[Skinypupy]

Is there a good reason that a jury isn't given access to any transcripts? I know nothing about court proceedings, but allowing a jury to review a transcript of testimony seems far superior than forcing them to rely on their memory and any notes they bother to take.

At the time I was flabbergasted by it but many jurisdictions do this. I forget the justifications that a lawyer friend told me about why this was the case. I remember my reaction was that I thought it was stupid. Especially considering how our deliberations went. In my case 7 of us agreed we heard someone admit on the stand that they did 'the thing' at the heart of the case and several argued we got it wrong. We asked for transcripts or a playback or whatever and was told the same thing, "Use our notes and recollections." In the end all we could do was agree to disagree.

From Popehat.

[malchior]

This one slipped by me @WaPo

So let me get this straight. The guy racially profiled people to pin crimes on, admitted to misconduct, resigned, was provided a letter from the department speaking to his good conduct, and he still 'remains under investigation' over a year later? Seriously. This is bonkers. Look at that last bit below. We can't rely on this system to fix itself.

Fairfax County prosecutors are moving to throw out more than 400 criminal convictions based on the testimony or work of a former patrol officer who is accused of stealing drugs from the police property room, planting drugs on innocent people and stopping motorists without legal basis, court filings show. In a hearing Friday, a Fairfax judge said he was inclined to vacate felony drug and gun convictions against a former D.C. firefighter and order him released from prison next week after serving nearly two years because of the actions of former officer Jonathan A. Freitag.

Fairfax police said they began investigating Freitag after receiving a tip about him in July 2019. The police department took him off the streets. Freitag, now 25, resigned in May 2020 after the FBI had joined Fairfax County in a criminal investigation of him. But even after The Washington Post first reported the allegations against Freitag in June 2020, he was hired by the Brevard County Sheriff’s Office in Florida in August 2020. The Fairfax human resources department reported to Brevard that the former officer had never been “subject to disciplinary action” and “there are no disciplinary records in his file.”

Freitag was fired by the Brevard County sheriff on April 1 after The Post inquired about his status there. Brevard Sheriff Wayne Ivey then sent a scathing two-page letter to interim Fairfax police chief David M. Rohrer accusing Fairfax of providing “misleading representations to our legitimate efforts to investigate” Freitag. Ivey said it was “outrageous that an individual such as Mr. Freitag, with a history of alleged misconduct at the Fairfax County Police Department, had become a member of our agency and placed in a position that may have negatively impacted our citizens due to your agency’s misrepresentations.”

Fairfax County’s human resources department provided Freitag with a letter soon after his resignation which said, “You resigned from the position in good standing, your employment was entirely favorable and you are eligible for re-hire,” and Freitag in turn submitted that to Brevard County, documents released by Brevard show. Fairfax police said that letter led Brevard to query the human resources department instead of the police department. Brevard is now investigating the cases Freitag made during his seven months there, sheriff’s office spokesman Tod Goodyear said.

...

He was interviewed by internal affairs in September 2019 and “acknowledged [he] primarily conduct[ed] pretextual traffic stops and look for ‘narcotics, guns, any stolen property, and wanted people.’

...

Shapiro said Freitag was asked once by investigators about any racial component to his policing, denied it and wasn’t accused of it by the police.

“Multiple people accused the officer of planting drugs,” Descano and Manikas wrote. “In several cases handled by the officer, narcotics went missing from the property room, including cocaine and marijuana. The officer repeatedly edited police reports in cases where the narcotics went missing, sometimes over 100 times in a single case.” No evidence of this has been publicly released.


Freitag, the son of a retired Arlington police officer, started working for Fairfax as a 19-year-old police cadet in 2015, then became an officer in March 2017, soon after he turned 21. In September 2019, he was placed on administrative duty and later filed a grievance for the length of time he’d had to wait without pay.

In April 2020, Freitag’s commanders recommended his termination, the internal police report shows. Instead, Freitag’s lawyers negotiated a settlement agreement with Fairfax County’s attorneys, provided by Shapiro. Freitag agreed he would provide a two weeks notice of resignation, and Fairfax agreed that “All documents associated with the pending Internal Affairs investigation against Freitag will remain in the FCPD’s Internal Affairs administrative file and will not be included in Freitag’s personnel and/or Human Resources files.”

[Smoove_B]

Community policing in action - here we see officers asking locals to provide their licenses and registration paperwork for the guns they're open-carrying.

We can’t even ride bikes now... I’m not surprised. I’m just angry.

Oh wait, I mean bikes. They need licenses and registration for bikes. I know there are communities that have voluntary registrations for bikes to help with theft, but I've never seen something like this??

From Perth Amboy, NJ, fwiw.

[Kurth]

#justcomply

[LordMortis]

Were the bikes stolen and known to be stolen? Otherwise I just can't get to the context that gets them arrested. I'm lost.

"The seargant warned" them about their bikes and not having a license? It? Nothing...

[malchior]

This is a loophole in NJ's home rule system. Towns can require registration of bikes whereas cars are done by the state. The town does this to prevent bike theft but in practice it is ridiculous. Someone happening to pass through a town might get ganked for a random license violation?

[LawBeefaroni]

This is a loophole in NJ's home rule system. Towns can require registration of bikes whereas cars are done by the state. The town does this to prevent bike theft but in practice it is ridiculous. Someone happening to pass through a town might get ganked for a random license violation?

Cops enforcing stupid laws are doing their job as determined by those who make the stupid laws. Obviously this particular town wants this kind of bullshit.

[malchior]

This is a loophole in NJ's home rule system. Towns can require registration of bikes whereas cars are done by the state. The town does this to prevent bike theft but in practice it is ridiculous. Someone happening to pass through a town might get ganked for a random license violation?

Cops enforcing stupid laws are doing their job as determined by those who make the stupid laws. Obviously this particular town wants this kind of bullshit.

No doubt. I more meant to give people context about why this is even possible since it is so stupid. FWIW my wife's friend is an avid biker. He does centuries often and lives in Perth Amboy. He was just on the phone with her and I asked about it. He was unaware of it even though he rides through town pretty much every day and has for over a decade. Guess what color he is...

[Alefroth]

They're lucky to be alive.

[ImLawBoy]

This is a loophole in NJ's home rule system. Towns can require registration of bikes whereas cars are done by the state. The town does this to prevent bike theft but in practice it is ridiculous. Someone happening to pass through a town might get ganked for a random license violation?

Cops enforcing stupid laws are doing their job as determined by those who make the stupid laws. Obviously this particular town wants this kind of bullshit.

Cops selectively enforcing stupid laws aren't just doing their jobs. Of course, it's possible that they do this evenly to white cyclists, too, in which case it is just cops enforcing stupid laws.

[LawBeefaroni]

This is a loophole in NJ's home rule system. Towns can require registration of bikes whereas cars are done by the state. The town does this to prevent bike theft but in practice it is ridiculous. Someone happening to pass through a town might get ganked for a random license violation?

Cops enforcing stupid laws are doing their job as determined by those who make the stupid laws. Obviously this particular town wants this kind of bullshit.

Cops selectively enforcing stupid laws aren't just doing their jobs. Of course, it's possible that they do this evenly to white cyclists, too, in which case it is just cops enforcing stupid laws.

Do we know it's cops selectively enforcing or residents selectively calling? If they get a call for "suspicious looking men being disruptive on bikes" riding around, they kind of have to go check it out. The implied request is "get them out of here."

And this gets back to something I've talked about before. The institutional knowledge drained as older cops quit leads to this kind of enforcing the letter of the law and not the spirit. These new cops go looking for violations instead of solutions.

[malchior]

According to a follow up video one of officers was giving them a song and dance about protecting them. They apparently told them to ride on the sidewalk -- which is ... actually illegal there. And said they could give him a hard time since he didn't have a receipt for the bike. LIke I said above, my wife's co-worker happens to live in town and had no idea there was even a bike licensing law. I don't think its a stretch to wonder if skin color + age is a determining factor here. There are very few black people in Perth Amboy. It is majority Hispanic with the balance being mostly white people.

[Smoove_B]

Should be easy enough for any investigative reporter to get a decade's worth of data from the Perth Amboy police and see how this program has been working out.

[malchior]

Should be easy enough for any investigative reporter to get a decade's worth of data from the Perth Amboy police and see how this program has been working out.

Let's hope. It sure won't be anyone local. There aren't many reporters left to do it anymore since they've been mostly consolidated to NYC or PHL.

[noxiousdog]

There is more context. Though I don't agree with the reply poster's conclusions, I do know that if this pack of kids was running through my neighborhood's busy streets consistently, I wouldn't be happy.:

[malchior]

Interesting. The first contact was more than fair. The senior officer was like...guys...enough with these shenanigans. That seems reasonable because they were annoying to be sure even if it was hardly 'Escape from New York' level menace. Essentially, "I'm not chasing you out of town but be safer."


Edit: Oops. Revising my remarks. I missed the part where the older officer let's them go and officer hot head steps in and escalates the whole thing. We don't know why this happens though because they cut the video. Maybe something happened but these guys were clapping the fair response until someone felt their authoritah was being challenged. Time code - about 11 minutes or so. She basically swoops in and decides she is seizing the bike.

[Smoove_B]

Additionally, if you want to read the news article, here it is.

Regardless, the optics on this are terrible.

[Kurth]

Yeah, that full length video doesn't do a whole lot to change my mind. The senior guy seemed to have things under control, until the female officer rolled up and pretty much overruled him with an order to "take their bikes."

This actually highlights one of the issues I think we see all the time: That female officer was visibly and personally pissed at those kids. It seemed like she felt disrespected and that the kids were punking her. She is annoyed and out of patience.

I get that, but here's the thing: I don't care if she felt disrespected and punked and tired of dealing with those kids. It comes with the job. Her job is to serve and protect. My take from that video was that she was less about serving and protecting and more about punishing those kids and teaching them a lesson.

That's probably appropriate parenting. Maybe it's teaching. It's not policing.

[noxiousdog]

I want to know what happened during "a few inches later."

[malchior]

I want to know what happened during "a few inches later."

I doubt it's much of anything because the older officer starts by trying to talk her down. Once it's clear she's on a tear he backs off. Also, the mini army for a bunch of kids on bikes is ... pure NJ.

That happened to me and my friends once. An army of cops descended on us in the middle of the woods at a park because there were reports of kids with a crossbow. I swear to god. It was mayhem but nothing happened. It had to be 15 town cops for 3 kids kicking rocks.

[Z-Corn]

That kid filming is really good at wheelies.

[stimpy]

I started watching the video and was fully onboard with them out having fun riding with their group.
Until they started weaving in front of oncoming cars and touching them.
That's dangerous stuff and puts others at risk. You want to pop wheelies and jump off stairs? Fine. Only one that can get hurt is yourself.
Start acting like a tool in traffic? I agree with shutting that shit down.
The first cop had it. The second cop must have been a higher rank the way the first cop totally backed off.
Did she over react? Yeah, probably. But when she gives the little speech at the station, I kind of believed her that they werent trying to be assholes.

[malchior]

The first cop had it. The second cop must have been a higher rank the way the first cop totally backed off.

Probably not. He likely had seniority. My guess is at least a Lt if not a Captain. However, in front of a crowd of kids and the other officers he isn't going to pull rank on the street without all the facts. He did what anyone else in his position would do which is figure it out and possibly chew her out back at the shop.

Did she over react? Yeah, probably. But when she gives the little speech at the station, I kind of believed her that they werent trying to be assholes.

Well that's an interesting take. "Sorry we weren't trying to be assholes. We just seized your bikes, arrested one of you, and gave you a hard time about getting the bikes back...but totally did it not to be assholes.." I don't know. Doesn't really ring true to me.

[stimpy]

The first cop had it. The second cop must have been a higher rank the way the first cop totally backed off.

Probably not. He likely had seniority. My guess is at least a Lt if not a Captain. However, in front of a crowd of kids and the other officers he isn't going to pull rank on the street without all the facts. He did what anyone else in his position would do which is figure it out and possibly chew her out back at the shop.

Did she over react? Yeah, probably. But when she gives the little speech at the station, I kind of believed her that they werent trying to be assholes.

Well that's an interesting take. "Sorry we weren't trying to be assholes. We just seized your bikes, arrested one of you, and gave you a hard time about getting the bikes back...but totally did it not to be assholes.." I don't know. Doesn't really ring true to me.

All because it doesnt ring true to you doesnt make it so.
I said I kind of believe her. You dont.
There ya go.

[malchior]

Tucker Carlson had a totally normal night.



Edit: The Internet strikes back already

[Victoria Raverna]

Going back to Grifman from earlier. Following police instructions is irrelevant if you are black. Thats the core piece you are missing. Following instructions/following rules/complying only works if you are white. Years and years of experience has shown time and time again, if you are black you could get arrested or shot even if you do exactly what you are told. It literally doesn't matter. They say, get your registration, you reach for the glove box, they shoot you because they thought you were reaching for a gun. They say turn around and kneel down, you turn around, they shoot you because they thought you were going to run instead of kneel. They say put your hands up, your raise your hands up, they shoot you for making an aggressive gesture. The laws don't work the same for black people as they do for white people. They police don't act the same for black people as they do for white people. Grifman, your stance that they should have followed instructions, comes from a place of privilege. Only those with a chance of being treated fairly would consider that following instructions is a viable choice. The protests, the BLM movement, the cries against injustice, these are coming because black people have suffered for years. Repeated, consistent, deeply ingrained unjust acts from the hands of police.

For a white person a speeding ticket is an annoyance. For a black person, it is potentially life threatening. It is two separate systems of policing.
Enough is enough, this is America, justice should be for all, not just for the white.

I think it is still safer to follow police instructions if you are black than not following. Following the instruction, you still can get shoot but not following increase the chance of that.

[malchior]

I've never contemplated this - really makes you think.

[Skinypupy]

I'm afraid we can just go ahead and reset the clock. Today, police shot and killed a 16-year-old girl in Columbus who was holding a knife. The initial reports (via Twitter, so take with a truckload of salt) was that she was the one who called the cops, and had the knife because she was trying to fight off the people attacking her.

My fear is that while we got a small slice of justice today, things are going to get much, much worse as the cops get angrier.