Why isn't anyone here talking about virtual reality?

[JetFred]

So, some interesting side effects of VR that I've noticed...

That was the most fascinating blurb I've read about VR.

[Blackhawk]

Oh, I forgot - I also had an interesting effect where reading a page on a PC screen made it look like the letters had depth, almost as if they were floating. Sort of the way a field of polka dots gets if you look at them slightly cross-eyed and misfocus.

[Blackhawk]

Played Beat Saber today. Good lord. Four songs and I felt like I'd just gotten off of my stationary bike.

[coopasonic]

Played Beat Saber today. Good lord. Four songs and I felt like I'd just gotten off of my stationary bike.

It is a pretty nice workout and will kick your ass pretty well. I need to get back to it just from a physical activity perspective.

Also if you think THAT is a workout, you should check out Thrill of the Fight (I assume it's on Rift too). It's a boxing game. I have to stop playing that after a match because sweat is blurring my vision.

[Blackhawk]

I got up, did my morning stretches and floor exercises, got on the exercise bike, then played Beat Saber, then played Asgard's Wrath (a game with a lot of movement and sword fighting.) I'm beat! Gaming is making me work for it!

[Montag]

Beatsaber can wear you out and is great for cardio.

Beastsaber https://bsaber.com/ is great for getting custom songs. My favorites: Take on Me, Blue by Eiffel 65, Koto by Clozee, Gangnam Style. Tons more.

Get ModAssistant and read up at https://bsmg.wiki/pc-modding.html

Updates break the mods all the time, but they are normally fixed within a few days.

[Blackhawk]

Beatsaber can wear you out and is great for cardio.

Beastsaber https://bsaber.com/ is great for getting custom songs. My favorites: Take on Me, Blue by Eiffel 65, Koto by Clozee, Gangnam Style. Tons more.

Get ModAssistant and read up at https://bsmg.wiki/pc-modding.html

Updates break the mods all the time, but they are normally fixed within a few days.

Ooh, thanks! Quick question - are the songs included in the maps, or do you have to get the songs elsewhere yourself?

[Blackhawk]

I am considering getting a set of the official Oculus prescription lens inserts. Has anyone tried these?

[coopasonic]

I am considering getting a set of the official Oculus prescription lens inserts. Has anyone tried these?

I considered it but since I share the headset with my kids it would get annoying changing them out. Wearing my glasses why playing doesn't really bother me, not half as much as the unbalanced weight of the headset -- the rift may be better in that respect as it doesn't have the big internal battery the Quest does.

[Blackhawk]

I am considering getting a set of the official Oculus prescription lens inserts. Has anyone tried these?

I considered it but since I share the headset with my kids it would get annoying changing them out. Wearing my glasses why playing doesn't really bother me, not half as much as the unbalanced weight of the headset -- the rift may be better in that respect as it doesn't have the big internal battery the Quest does.

The Rift-S is not glasses compatible. There are workarounds and third-party spacers that are supposed to help, but if it doesn't work perfectly, the headset rubs your glasses and both the glasses and headset are shot. It's not worth taking the risk for me, not when I can get officially recognized prescription lenses for it for 1/5 of the price of the headset. Besides, the prescription lenses would act as a shield for the headset lenses. In case of an accident, it would be the RX, not the headset that would need replaced.

[TheMix]

If it doesn't support glasses, then definitely. I've tried my headset a few times without my glasses. I don't like it. Everything is blurry. And then there is the eye strain.

[Blackhawk]

A Steam sale started today. That was good timing. Or bad.

[Blackhawk]

Yes, I know. I've taken over the thread. I'm just having so gosh darned much fun. Thank you again to the OOer who provided me with this.

The Steam sale hit and several of the titles I had on my wish list went on sale (still nothing for Alyx yet, but that's likely going to be a while.) I picked up Pistol Whip. Wow, that's fun, but it made Beat Saber seem mild as far as physical exercise goes. Two maps and I was done. Now I want to get in better shape just to be able to game better.

[Blackhawk]

After a couple of weeks, I thought I'd mention a few things that have really helped me that are of the "Wish I'd Known" variety. Some I read about, others I had to figure out on my own.

1. Get an anti-fatigue mat. Put it on the floor. These are the super-thick soft foam mats made for people like cashiers who stand in one place for hours. It serves a dual purpose: it pads your surface when you're standing, and it gives you a 'home' location so that you always know where you are. They make fancy version for VR that have special textures for the 'forward' directions, but any old mat will do (I am actually using two half yoga mats left over from making board game covers.)
2. Put a fan on the floor or a table. This keeps you cool while jackassing around and helps prevent fogging, but it also serves another purpose: It gives you back some situational awareness by blowing from one direction. When the wind is in your face, you're facing the front.
3. For my Rift-S, I started by squeezing my gaming headphones over it for sound. It worked... ok, but it didn't fit well, and it was a pain in the ass to put on and take off. Finally I was able to buy a cheap ($30) set of earbuds that were really well rated. I plugged them into the rift, wound the cord and zip-tied it, then ran the ear buds around the sides of the headset and used another zip tie to attach them right over the ears with about six inches of slack. It's not noticeable when looking at it, it doesn't flop around while playing, and basically hangs the earbuds right next to my ears with just enough slack to put them in. It's so much easier!

Those three things alone made life a lot simpler and more fun.

[Blackhawk]

One more tip, and an important one, mostly for those of us who have a cable on our VR set (you wireless jockeys can use this elsewhere, though):

I had one hell of a time when I first got the set. I'd wind the cable carefully, never twist it, and I'd always straighten it out before I started playing. But as soon as I'd hook things up, the cable would twisted - it would coil into loops despite starting straight, even if I hadn't moved or rotated an inch. It shortened the effective cable length, and I found out later (by reading, not catastrophe), also shortens the lifespan of the cable. The problem is that it builds up tension over time while being wound, regardless of how loosely you wind it. The solution is simple: learn the over/under cable wrapping method, which I understand was developed by musicians and A/V pros to preserve hugely expensive cables. It takes a few practice tries, but afterwards is just as fast as regular coiling. It alternates the twist, and through the magic of geomephysics it keeps the pressure even while it's wrapped, preventing twisting. After doing this for a week or so my cables were laying perfectly flat and stayed that way.



(Hint: when it doesn't work at first, the mistake is probably that you're not rotating your hand/the cable far enough on the alternating wraps.)

[Blackhawk]

Crossposted to the Skyrim thread.

One of the biggest mods for Skyrim was Enderal. It was, essentially, a total conversion. All it has in common with Skyrim is that it uses it's engine. The mechanics and balance are all different. And a lot of people say that Enderal is a much better game than Skyrim was. I never quite finished it, but my impression was that it's a justified claim. It's worth a play, given that it's free (if you own Skyrim.) And it has been made made playable in VR.

[Blackhawk]

Played Beat Saber today. Good lord. Four songs and I felt like I'd just gotten off of my stationary bike.

It is a pretty nice workout and will kick your ass pretty well. I need to get back to it just from a physical activity perspective.

Also if you think THAT is a workout, you should check out Thrill of the Fight (I assume it's on Rift too). It's a boxing game. I have to stop playing that after a match because sweat is blurring my vision.

I tried it. My space just meets the minimums they say, "minimum supported play area size of 2m by 1.5m (6.5ft by 5ft)." Where they came up with that number I have no idea, but that's not nearly enough. My son only barely warned me when a punch came about an inch from the new TV we got for Christmas. The real minimum should be 6.5ft by 5ft, plus an additional two feet in every direction to act as a buffer between your boundary and solid objects.

It shall be my first Steam refund.

[Blackhawk]

So, yesterday was my birthday. Package arrived today from my sister in Oregon - Oculus Quest 2 with a handful of accessories!

My kids are excited, as 'hogging the VR' won't be as much of a thing now that there are two.

I'm excited, as it is an upgrade, and a lot of what's been done over the past year in VR has been targeted specifically to the Quest line rather than the Rift line due to the significantly higher sales (driven in part by the fact that it doesn't require a gaming PC.)

Now I just need to figure out SideQuest.

[Chraolic]

So, yesterday was my birthday. Package arrived today from my sister in Oregon - Oculus Quest 2 with a handful of accessories!

My kids are excited, as 'hogging the VR' won't be as much of a thing now that there are two.

I'm excited, as it is an upgrade, and a lot of what's been done over the past year in VR has been targeted specifically to the Quest line rather than the Rift line due to the significantly higher sales (driven in part by the fact that it doesn't require a gaming PC.)

Now I just need to figure out SideQuest.

Nice. And a belated happy birthday. Sidequest isn't too complicated, the only thing is that you can't use the charging cable to connect to a PC, as I discovered while troubleshooting online. Pretty much any other cable should work though, it doesn't have to be USB3 or anything, but that does help if you're playing PC VR games. USB2 transfer rates seem to be locked to 72 Hz or thereabouts.

[Blackhawk]

My motherboard has a native USB-C port, and one of the accessories was a long USB-C cable with an in-line repeater. It's long enough to use my cable management pulleys already, and it is one that's well reviewed as a third-party Link cable. Given the accessories (alternate headband, halo protectors, the USB cable, etc.), I'm guessing she has someone who's into VR that she was able to ask for advice.

[Chraolic]

My motherboard has a native USB-C port, and one of the accessories was a long USB-C cable with an in-line repeater. It's long enough to use my cable management pulleys already, and it is one that's well reviewed as a third-party Link cable. Given the accessories (alternate headband, halo protectors, the USB cable, etc.), I'm guessing she has someone who's into VR that she was able to ask for advice.

Yeah, that sounds real good. I just thought it was worth mentioning, it was far from obvious that it wouldn't work with the cable included in the box.

[Blackhawk]

For those who use Virtual Desktop to stream to their Quest/Quest 2, I have a tip (and this should be valuable to anyone who games.) I'm sure that the IT guys will be rolling their eyes about how obvious this is, but it's something that civilians never deal with.

To get a good experience, you need to have your gaming PC connected to your modem/router (whatever provides your wifi signal) via a physical wire. That's common knowledge. It even warns you when you connect via Virtual Desktop if your PC-router connection isn't wired.

What I didn't know, and had never considered, was that not all network cables are the same. I have a big bag of network cables, and just grab one out of the bag when I need to connect something. It may be the wire that Comcast gave me a year ago with the router, or it may be a cable that's been banging around for 15 years. I have no idea - they all look pretty much the same, and I never gave it much thought. But the tech has improved over the years, and a modern cable is way different from an old one. I was running what was, I believe, some freebie early Cat 5 cable. I replaced it with a $9 Cat 7 cable that's shielded for interference and saw an immediate performance increase in Virtual Desktop streaming.

So check your cables.

[Blackhawk]

Against. It's an upcoming game that caught my eye. Pistol Whip Noir?

[TheMix]

Interesting. Seems to use a number of different movements/actions. Though I wonder if it would get too repetitive.

So far I haven't dipped my feet into any of the "active" games. Put a bunch of time in Skyrim. And finished Alyx. I have been playing Sariento. It's a bit more active. But mostly I've been plyaing Into the Radius. I'm a sucker for anything like STALKER.

[Blackhawk]

It would depend heavily on how different the levels are. As it is a pre-release, and this is the only level they've shown (there is no early access), it's hard to say. I did notice that it seems to repeat a section, but again - it's a But the theming is appealing. TogueVR (who does lots of mixed reality trailers for games) did do a MR run of it, although I like the first person trailer better:



It's definitely more of a mechanics/timing game than a music game, akin to Pistol Whip or Beat Saber. But the thing I like about this (and Pistol Whip) is that you're actually doing a real-world thing as opposed to something abstract, like Beat Saber (cutting up neon cubes) or Synth Riders (hitting neon balls.) The downside is that there's a lot less room for expression (which is why Synth Riders is still my favorite - you can play it all sorts of ways as long as your hands end up in the right spot.)

[Grifman]

We're a week away from the release of the Oculus Rift and the HTC Vive, and Playstation VR preorders sold out in 10 minutes on Amazon and are now just about sold out at every other major retailer even though it doesn't launch until October. People are about fly around in virtual spaceship cockpits and have holodecks in their rooms, have virtual computer desktops and other various other magical things straight out of our favorite sci-fi movies. Just about every tech website is covering this stuff now, as are youtube and twitter personalities who (I'm told) are extremely popular with huge audiences.

But people here are barely talking about VR! What's up with that? Are people here thinking of it as another fad? A modern day Kinect that'll seem neat for a year and then fizzle out? Or is it being seen as just too early, too expensive? Or is it just not being seen at all? It's just not yet on the radar for OO?

https://360rumors.com/vr-users-percenta ... vey-shows/

In the past year, the percentage of PC gamers who are using a VR headset has increased to 2.13%, which is 63% more than the percentage reported in January 2020, when the percentage of VR users was 1.31%. What is the significance of this increase?

Valve’s monthly hardware survey among Steam users includes a segment on VR headsets. In particular, the survey includes the percentage of Steam VR users who have used their VR headset in the past month. In January 2020, this percentage of Steam VR users who used a VR headset was 1.31%. That number has been growing. In January 2021, the percentage reached 2.13%, which represents a 62.5% year-over-year increase.

Woo, 2.13% active users!!! Five years after initial post, and I think the question has been answered. This is still a niche product, and I don't see that really changing anytime soon

[Blackhawk]

Woo, 2.13% active users!!! Five years after initial post, and I think the question has been answered. This is still a niche product, and I don't see that really changing anytime soon

Sort of. The success of the Quest lines (the Quest 2 sold more than all other Oculus sets combined) means that a large percentage of VR users don't hook their headsets to their PCs anymore. That brings in non-PC gamers who don't have the kind of expensive hardware that PCVR requires. The Rifts were fancy monitors. The Quests are fancy consoles (that can also, if you choose, be attached to a PC.) The Steam hardware survey also likely only counts those who have played games via SteamVR. It misses those who only play through Oculus. It also doesn't count PSVR (the Playstation VR system, which is pretty popular.) I'd also think that there are a lot of people would be playing PCVR, but have been held back by the video card nonsense.


It is still a niche product, and will be for some time, but those numbers are likely at least a few percentage points higher. It isn't quite mainstream, but it isn't early adopter stuff anymore, either.

[Chraolic]

I'm beginning to think the Quest 2 controllers are powered by magic. It occured to me the other day that I've used them for a bit over a month now and they are still on 100% charge. Why can't I get that technology in my Xbox controller?

[Chraolic]

Ads are coming to Oculus games, apparently. I suppose it was to be expected, but it remains to be seen how it will be implemented. I guess billboards inside modern-era games aren't necessarily so bad, but if the internet has taught us anything so far it's that nobody ever stops at "enough".

[Blackhawk]

I think Blaston is about to get review-bombed.

First thought: Oculus/Facebook owns Beat Saber.

Second thought: About 90% of the games I own are VR games through Steam. I question Facebook will be able to inject ads into Steam games.

Third though: I wonder how much incentive #2 will give them to make the Quest 3 Oculus-only without PCVR support.

[coopasonic]

Third though: I wonder how much incentive #2 will give them to make the Quest 3 Oculus-only without PCVR support.

They've made surprising changes this year to support PCVR on quest 2 and are also extending it to the original quest. I guarantee they can inject ads into the steam experience if they want. It might be interesting to see a fight between Facebook and Valve.

[Chraolic]

They've made surprising changes this year to support PCVR on quest 2 and are also extending it to the original quest. I guarantee they can inject ads into the steam experience if they want. It might be interesting to see a fight between Facebook and Valve.

I'm not sure why there'd be a fight, surely there have to be some ad-supported games among all the free-to-play tosh that's on Steam already. Don't some of the EA Sports titles have ads in them, even?

[coopasonic]

The fight would be about who gets the money from the ads in steam games that are presented through facebook's platform that they are making ad supported.

[Chraolic]

The fight would be about who gets the money from the ads in steam games that are presented through facebook's platform that they are making ad supported.

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying, it seems like there would have to be a precedent for that since ads themselves aren't a new idea. Here's an article on in-game ads in games like FIFA and Football Manager, which are already on Steam, so I can't see why it would be any different for Oculus.

[Blackhawk]

I think Blaston is about to get review-bombed.

Yep. The flagship game for this new addition got so hammered as a result that they have officially backed out of the deal.

The thing about niche audiences is that negative press travels fast. Oculus is going to have a harder time convincing other companies to be the next in the firing line.

[YellowKing]

After not really messing with my Quest for quite some time (in our household it remains an occasional diversion for the kids), I brought it back out to try the SUPERNATURAL workout app.

It's essentially just Beat Saber with coaches, but it's a lot of fun and definitely made me sweat. They use licensed songs, and there's a great variety of workouts ranging from classical to country to heavy metal to pop or 80s/90s. They also rank workouts in intensity levels, and even have stretch and meditation sessions.

It's a bit pricy at $18/month, but there's a 30-day free trial.

My only problem with it at the moment is that while it provides a decent cardio workout, you're essentially limited to swinging your arms around and squatting. Since I run 3x a week already, I'm already getting in cardio. While MORE cardio never hurts, I feel like I'd be better off taking that $18 and sticking it into a (probably much cheaper) app on the phone that provides strength training workouts.

Still, for the right person it could be a lot of fun and definitely worth giving the 30-day trial a whirl.

[Blackhawk]

Ha, as it happens I also just started the 30-day trial yesterday. I've tried quite a few fitness games and games that have fitness benefits, and was wanting to see what else there was. I was impressed. It is, as you said, a lot like Beat Saber. The big difference that I've seen is that the emphasis is on motion rather than score or challenge. Beat Saber is all about interesting note placement for challenging flow. This, on the other hand, pushes range of motion, long swings, and power. They place the notes so that you're having to constantly move from, for example, lower left in a lunge to upper right standing (so a full motion) rather than doing the high-speed rolls and muscle-memory jumps that define Beat Saber. The lunges and squats are designed as part of this rather than as a 'stay awake' gotcha in Beat Saber.

The one thing is that it requires player buy-in. By that I mean that (as I said in the other thread) you have to put an effort into pushing yourself. If you want to stand there and flick your wrists, you can. Hell, there is no 'fail' point - you just keep doing what you can.

They also have built-in warmups and cooldowns, although they're a little too short for what you're supposed to be doing. The coaches are designing the encouragement for each map. It isn't just someone shouting 'Great!' like in most games - the trainers are playing the game and recording the dialog themselves with full context, including encouragement, reminders, and advice for specific sections. That's a big plus.

The price is mostly because they're actively putting out new content all the time, and because they have a huge range of licensed music that they're always updating rather than just a custom set of generic EDM tracks. I saw pop, dance, rock, punk, country, and classic jazz (I did one with Nat King Cole and Louis Armstrong last night.) They're also putting out new content out daily with the trainers. That's enough to qualify as a service in my book. The price is a little high, though. If I stick with it, I'll likely trade in my Audible sub for it.

My only problem with it at the moment is that while it provides a decent cardio workout, you're essentially limited to swinging your arms around and squatting. Since I run 3x a week already, I'm already getting in cardio. While MORE cardio never hurts, I feel like I'd be better off taking that $18 and sticking it into a (probably much cheaper) app on the phone that provides strength training workouts.

So far, pretty much all of the fitness games I've played have been cardio, with some flexibility. Some body-weight exercises are frequent (especially squats), but I don't think VR is really suited to strength work beyond that, short of playing games while wearing a resistance suit. I certainly can't see doing push-ups in VR or manipulating heavy gear when I'm effectively blind to my environment. With that said, I absolutely have improved my strength and built some muscle while playing games like Beat Saber and would expect similar results from this (not so much from Synth Riders, as it doesn't require large, quick movements.) Arms don't weight nothing (most guys arms are around 10 lbs), so moving it quickly around, stopping it's motion, and then moving it again does take a fair amount of muscle. But the benefits in building muscle are going to be limited. You can't up the weight safely (do not wear wrist weight when doing VR unless you want to destroy your joints.)

On the other hand, once you hit that plateau, these sorts of games likely have significant benefits when it comes to arm and shoulder endurance. Think about it this way: The average Beat Saber song on hard has about five notes per second. A four second song will have ~1200 notes. That means 600 notes per arm. Even if only 1/4 of those notes involve full motions (one side to the other, or low note to high note, etc), that's 150 body-weight reps per arm per song.

But no, I don't think we're ever going to see significant muscle gains from VR, or strength/endurance gains outside of a few specific muscle groups. VR fitness is about 90% cardio and calorie burn.

I will say that I have heard some interesting things about REAKT, although I'm a little skeptical.

[Blackhawk]

Oh, one other element: flexibility. I have seen tai chi, yoga, and stretching programs for VR. I don't think they're of a great deal of use. Doing the kind of motions you need to being doing for flexibility/mobility is awkward in VR, and would require excellent balance to do (effectively) blindfolded, plus you can't see your body. Light stretching as a warm-up taught in VR? Sure. But as a primary source, no. That said, being able to watch somebody demonstrate moves in VR is absolutely worthwhile, as you can see depth and positioning so much better. But that's a job for a VR180 video on YouTube, not a game.

There are benefits, but I do think a full fitness routine is going to involve resistance and flexibility training done outside of VR, while VR is great for general cardio and motion. But that's OK by me, as cardio is the most tedious part of a workout to begin with.

[YellowKing]

Thanks for that feedback, Blackhawk. I'm definitely going to keep using it for the 30-day trial and may sub a month beyond that. I want to give it some consistent use to see if there are any gains. As I mentioned before, you can rarely go wrong with *more* cardio so if I see that it's helping my runs and/or weight loss, it may be something I continue using.

One thing I forgot to mention for those who haven't tried it yet is that there is a nice little companion app for your phone where you can see your workout history and scores, preview available workouts, etc. You can also pair a heartrate monitor to it.

[Blackhawk]

It paired to my Polar strap really quickly,with less hassle than is usually involved in pairing it.