The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

[Isgrimnur]

And again, as a reminder - the CDC isn't your state or local health authorities. The CDC is making their recommendations; follow your locals (who should be following the CDC).

If only. My local authorities declared the pandemic over a month ago.

[El Guapo]

I'm still planning on wearing my mask to large gathering indoor stuff (e.g., grocery stores and the like) for the time being. There is pretty universal mask culture in my neighborhood, and I'm expecting that's going to last for awhile, so even aside from the health risk I think there would be a very real culture risk at this point for not wearing a mask indoors. Plus I assume that stores will keep mandating masks for awhile (especially since I can't see an easy way for grocery stores to check vaccination status).

As for outdoors, people here still generally wear masks outdoors. There's been a slight drop off in outdoor mask wearing (maybe 70% instead of 90%+). In open outdoor areas (parks etc.) lots of people don't wear masks then slip them on when passing people going the other direction.

[YellowKing]

it was a decision that was made over the last day or so to try and really drive those that are hesitant to get vaccinated (because they can now see a measurable benefit).

I'm curious if they'll lift the mask mandate for businesses here now. In theory, you'd think it would make cases go back up because stores could now be full of unvaccinated, unmasked people milling around. I doubt people who are hesitant to get the vaccine are the same ones carefully masking up and protecting others.

[Zaxxon]

I'm less concerned with the going maskless part (at least indoors) as I am about the 'it's now safe to do all the things' part. That seems to me to imply that the CDC must believe the risk of transmission by vaccinated people, even to unvaccinated folks, is virtually nil. But I can't find anywhere explicitly addressing this

Either way, I also plan to wear a mask indoors around strangers for some time to come.

[Smoove_B]

I'm curious if they'll lift the mask mandate for businesses here now. In theory, you'd think it would make cases go back up because stores could now be full of unvaccinated, unmasked people milling around. I doubt people who are hesitant to get the vaccine are the same ones carefully masking up and protecting others.

Yes, I'm expecting cluster outbreaks in parts of the U.S. that remove the mask mandate (to follow new CDC guidance) and there's significant numbers of unvaccianted people coming into contact.

But apparently the CDC is confident in the data that vaccinated people are protected and overall circulating virus levels are dropping. Just need to make sure we keep kids safe.

[El Guapo]

I'm curious if they'll lift the mask mandate for businesses here now. In theory, you'd think it would make cases go back up because stores could now be full of unvaccinated, unmasked people milling around. I doubt people who are hesitant to get the vaccine are the same ones carefully masking up and protecting others.

Yes, I'm expecting cluster outbreaks in parts of the U.S. that remove the mask mandate (to follow new CDC guidance) and there's significant numbers of unvaccianted people coming into contact.

But apparently the CDC is confident in the data that vaccinated people are protected and overall circulating virus levels are dropping. Just need to make sure we keep kids safe.

In theory the CDC is not saying that stores should remove mask mandates, right? Logically stores should maintain mask mandates for exactly that reason, at least unless they have some workable way to verify customer vaccination status.

Though I do fully expect that a lot of stores will remove mask mandates and a lot of state and local governments will seize on this to remove mask mandates (and/or force stores to remove mask mandates). Though probably a lot of MAGA areas already did that months ago anyway.

[Blackhawk]

I'm wondering if they're playing the long game - guessing that the extra lives saved by the increased vaccinations will be meaningfully more than those lost by removing mask restrictions.

[Blackhawk]

Now we just have to figure out Fauci's OO user name . . . .

Probably one of Smoove's alts.

Have we ever seen Fauci and Smoove in the same room together?

[pr0ner]

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1392919562568433667

[Skinypupy]

I'm wondering if they're playing the long game - guessing that the extra lives saved by the increased vaccinations will be meaningfully more than those lost by removing mask restrictions.

I can't imagine that loosening of restrictions would have any practical effect on vaccination rates though.

Seems like everyone is pretty well set on one side or the other at this point.

[stessier]

And again, as a reminder - the CDC isn't your state or local health authorities. The CDC is making their recommendations; follow your locals (who should be following the CDC).

If only. My local authorities declared the pandemic over a month ago.

I feel your pain. I thought I'd get over it, but the "no masks in school" thing this week with less than 3 weeks left was a real gut punch though. Like it would have killed them to wait so those that care could get the vaccination first. Infuriating.

[Zaxxon]

And again, as a reminder - the CDC isn't your state or local health authorities. The CDC is making their recommendations; follow your locals (who should be following the CDC).

If only. My local authorities declared the pandemic over a month ago.

I feel your pain. I thought I'd get over it, but the "no masks in school" thing this week with less than 3 weeks left was a real gut punch though. Like it would have killed them to wait so those that care could get the vaccination first. Infuriating.

Thankfully our schools haven't done that yet, but I'm thinking they will come August. Really hoping the 5-11 group opens up by school resuming in the fall.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I feel your pain. I thought I'd get over it, but the "no masks in school" thing this week with less than 3 weeks left was a real gut punch though. Like it would have killed them to wait so those that care could get the vaccination first. Infuriating.

But our governor told us that wearing masks is harmful to children!

[Blackhawk]

Ours left it up to the teachers at some vague point during the winter, most of whom made it optional as long as kids were in their desk.

Of course, they never relayed this to the parents.

[Smoove_B]

In theory the CDC is not saying that stores should remove mask mandates, right? Logically stores should maintain mask mandates for exactly that reason, at least unless they have some workable way to verify customer vaccination status.

If they can say they're not making gay-cakes, they can say you need to wear a mask.

This is indeed where it gets interesting as I'm hoping work places (retail in particular) will now enforce employment vaccinations - to protect workers and customers from the unvaccinated masses moving through the store.

Though I do fully expect that a lot of stores will remove mask mandates and a lot of state and local governments will seize on this to remove mask mandates (and/or force stores to remove mask mandates). Though probably a lot of MAGA areas already did that months ago anyway.

Indeed. And I'm guessing we're going to find out exactly who is and who isn't vaccinated over the next 6 months.

[Smoove_B]

Either way, I also plan to wear a mask indoors around strangers for some time to come.

There's lot of people asking what we have been - I'm a little surprised no official guidance was communicated.

https://twitter.com/BoKnowsNews/status/ ... 1730677766

New: Do kids still need to wear face masks?
"Children are treated as unvaccinated unless they are 12 and up and have been fully vaccinated," CDC told @CBSNews
about their new guidance, meaning young kids who are not yet vaccine eligible should still wear masks.

I think as a sign of solidarity and to help a child feel more comfortable, I'd be wearing a mask with them in any situation that would require them to do so. Its hard enough being a kid normally and if they're anxious or feeling self conscious about being the only person unmasked it might help (even though it's not doing anything for you as the vaccinated adult).

Also, that Fauci pin.

I can only hope at some point he's randomly asked if he knows anything about Ookla the Mok.

[Kraken]

I'm still planning on wearing my mask to large gathering indoor stuff (e.g., grocery stores and the like) for the time being. There is pretty universal mask culture in my neighborhood, and I'm expecting that's going to last for awhile, so even aside from the health risk I think there would be a very real culture risk at this point for not wearing a mask indoors. Plus I assume that stores will keep mandating masks for awhile (especially since I can't see an easy way for grocery stores to check vaccination status).

As for outdoors, people here still generally wear masks outdoors. There's been a slight drop off in outdoor mask wearing (maybe 70% instead of 90%+). In open outdoor areas (parks etc.) lots of people don't wear masks then slip them on when passing people going the other direction.

I'd be a lot more comfortable with this if there was a way to identify fully vaccinated people vs. the daredevils and free riders. I still don't want to be near them without a mask, and will therefore continue to wear a mask in public indoor settings like grocery stores. Today there was a young lady shopping and schmoozing with her mask down below her chin; nobody said a word to her about it. People are also bringing their children with them again, which is something that stopped happening for a year.

Outdoors, very few people in my neck of the woods are masking, although we're still mostly keeping our distance. I no longer take a mask with me on my morning walk unless I'm planning to go into the square.

Fortunately, Massholes are pretty good about getting vaxxed, and compliance will likely be >70% by midsummer.

[Smoove_B]

Here you go - the numbers:

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/13 ... 9770271744

Why did it take @CDCgov til May 13 to recommend the vaccinated be liberated? Because it was unclear if vaccines protect against transmission—not just harboring the virus in your nose—but spreading it It's abundantly clear now, at least w/ mRNA vaccines, that transmission is rare. These are some recent studies of +PCR, infection, all <1%, mostly equivalent to nose harboring, carrier state, without symptoms. The rate of transmission is *much* lower

[Defiant]

I would have also figured that the percentage of vaccinated people might also played a part. If you're the only one vaccinated, that's a different situation then if you're vaccinated, and 40-50% of the people you come into contact are likely also vaccinated.

[stessier]

Here you go - the numbers:

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/13 ... 9770271744

Why did it take @CDCgov til May 13 to recommend the vaccinated be liberated? Because it was unclear if vaccines protect against transmission—not just harboring the virus in your nose—but spreading it It's abundantly clear now, at least w/ mRNA vaccines, that transmission is rare. These are some recent studies of +PCR, infection, all <1%, mostly equivalent to nose harboring, carrier state, without symptoms. The rate of transmission is *much* lower

Cool!

I wonder how J&J does given the Yankees current issues.

[Smoove_B]

I'm confident there were very smart people running numbers on this and looking at trends. I'm guessing that the data they have is telling them they've hit the vaccinated adult upper threshold and rather than get people spinning on why or how we're stuck, recommend the mask mandate is removed and get people excited about that.

As I said earlier, I'm confident we're going to find out real quick who among us is against being vaccinated.

We just need to keep protecting the kids and those that can't be vaccinated - and for now, that includes wearing masks.

[LawBeefaroni]

There it is:

CDC says fully vaccinated people don't need to wear face masks indoors or outdoors in most settings

Thanks, CNBC.

[Zaxxon]

There it is:

CDC says fully vaccinated people don't need to wear face masks indoors or outdoors in most settings

Thanks, CNBC.

Welcome to the thread; stay awhile.

[Jeff V]

We just need to keep protecting the kids and those that can't be vaccinated - and for now, that includes wearing masks.

And today's news means we can't bring the kids into public spaces assuming everyone is wearing masks and they will be reasonably safe. It's back to severe lock-down.

[malchior]

Overheard at Lowes. (Paraphrasing) 'See! As soon as Biden is in office they get rid of this mask bullshit'. Sigh. I feel like just walking in a random direction into the woods.

[LawBeefaroni]

There it is:

CDC says fully vaccinated people don't need to wear face masks indoors or outdoors in most settings

Thanks, CNBC.

Welcome to the thread; stay awhile.

I've been following the thread.

Making that point that the headlines are kind of irresponsible.

I had a meeting with a bar owner in the neighborhood tonight and walking around, everyone was unmasked. 2 days ago, everyone was masked. That's all well and good but the bars, restaurants, and stores are still following city and state guidelines which mean masks, distancing, and capacity limits. And I saw more than a few confrontational patrons citing the CDC and getting indignant at the rules.

[Zaxxon]

I'm confused--the CNBC headline and subheads are entirely accurate, by my read. Which part is irresponsible? Seems like you're saying the CDC is the irresponsible party, and CNBC is reporting it.

[LordMortis]

Cool!

I wonder how J&J does given the Yankees current issues.

Yeah, I'm waiting to learn more about that. Things don't seem consistent here. Where the root of inconsistency is at, I dunno. Crazy odds? Got vaccisnated and spiked the ball on the two yard line? Didn't get vaccninated? Data off? I don't understand what is really happening? Something else?

[Remus West]

I'd be a lot more comfortable with this if there was a way to identify fully vaccinated people vs. the daredevils and free riders.

Obviously they are simply going to install "vaccine scanners" in doorways to read our microchips and let them track where we are and thus also who among us is not vaccinated. All we need do is pressure them into making it so the scanner sprays the unclean with an identifying paint color. Or stamps their head with a mark of stupidity. I'm thinking one of an elephant would let us all know to steer clear.

[Smoove_B]

And I saw more than a few confrontational patrons citing the CDC and getting indignant at the rules.

Same as it ever was. CDC says wear a mask and practice social distancing? Tyranny! Constitution!

CDC says no more masking? They are the font of supreme knowledge and I must obey, regardless of state/local regulations.

There's some type of pattern here; I'll need to noodle on it.

Also, I have no idea what's going on with the Yankees, but that's definitely an interesting story. This is also where a group of public health / infectious disease doctors are getting nervous about yesterday's declaration. Not because of the Yankees but I'm not sure if variants are involved. As more variants continue to pop up, the "no mask for vaccinated people" policy could become a huge problem.

[Smoove_B]

Excellent observation

https://twitter.com/RheaBoydMD/status/1 ... 7686158339

If the United States had the vaccination rates of Black communities (about 27%) I don’t think the CDC would have changed the masking guidelines.

We should change guidelines when it is reasonable and safe for the populations made MOST vulnerable, not for those who are the least.

[Smoove_B]

I'd expect this story to be a prominent feature of Fox News all day today.:

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/stat ... 9053211649

Pelosi keeps mask mandate on House floor despite CDC change, sparking GOP backlash: "It’s about control"

[gilraen]

There's definitely quite a bit of anecdotal evidence now, of celebrities/athletes testing positive after getting the J&J vaccine. Most are asymptomatic, so the only reason they find out about it is because they are regularly tested. Bill Maher announced yesterday that he tested positive, so this week's episode of his show had to be canceled. Others - like Damion Lee of GS Warriors - was very much symptomatic and hasn't been able to return to the court yet. But still, his illness can't be considered "severe", so did the vaccine help in that respect? Maybe? Probably? No way to know. Is it one of the variants? They didn't say.

[Grifman]

I think the CDC decision was terrible, because it's only going to cause controversy and confusion. Many people (such as minorities noted above and people with immune system problems) are still threatened by this, and much of the population is still unvaccinated. It would have been better if they had said that masks can come off once we reach herd immunity - that would provide an incentive for more vaccinations. There's going to be pressure now for businesses, cities and states to remove mask mandates - and there's no way for those entities to require masks for the unvaccinated because there is no way to identify them. Bad decision all the way around.

[El Guapo]

I'd expect this story to be a prominent feature of Fox News all day today.:

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/stat ... 9053211649

Pelosi keeps mask mandate on House floor despite CDC change, sparking GOP backlash: "It’s about control"

WTF is the Post doing with that tweet headline. Did the Post social media coordinator owe a favor to someone at Fox News?

[El Guapo]

There's definitely quite a bit of anecdotal evidence now, of celebrities/athletes testing positive after getting the J&J vaccine. Most are asymptomatic, so the only reason they find out about it is because they are regularly tested. Bill Maher announced yesterday that he tested positive, so this week's episode of his show had to be canceled. Others - like Damion Lee of GS Warriors - was very much symptomatic and hasn't been able to return to the court yet. But still, his illness can't be considered "severe", so did the vaccine help in that respect? Maybe? Probably? No way to know. Is it one of the variants? They didn't say.

Is there any evidence of effects like this with the mRNA vaccines? Seems like not. I have to think that between this and the J&J pause that willingness to take the J&J vaccine is going to collapse.

[Smoove_B]

It would have been better if they had said that masks can come off once we reach herd immunity - that would provide an incentive for more vaccinations.

That ship has long sailed; it's never happening.

The biggest issue is that their recommendation was seemingly made without any regard to the highly local/regional nature of COVID-19 right now. Going maskless in NJ or MA is a whole different discussion than going maskless in TN or MS.

Bad decision all the way around.

So many seemed to agree with my initial impression from yesterday - they're taking a big gamble. They know vaccination acceptance has flatlined - the people that wanted to be vaccinated are. How that squares with access (i.e. did all the people that want it have equitable access?), I don't know. But my take is that they're gambling that enough people are vaccinated and that circulating virus levels are continuing to decline nationwide.

But yes, this puts incredible pressure on businesses and workers - the very workers we're hearing about that don't want to come to work. I'm sure removing mask mandates will really encourage retail and frontline workers to return in droves.

I honestly don't know what the answer is here. The CDC is (and has been since March) in a crap position. They have been taking nonstop heat for just about every decision from the get go. When you have 50 different states doing different thing based on local and regional politics, I really don't know what the answer is (if there ever was one).

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm confused--the CNBC headline and subheads are entirely accurate, by my read. Which part is irresponsible? Seems like you're saying the CDC is the irresponsible party, and CNBC is reporting it.

Terrible messaging by the CDC as usual, running with it and cherry picking by CNBC (and everyone else). Plenty of blame to go around.

This was not the right message and not the right time.

[El Guapo]

Yeah, I really feel like the CDC didn't have any great options here. If they keep the mask recommendation for fully vaccinated people, then they're going to get a lot of questions along the lines of "hey, is there any data supporting the recommendation that fully vaccinated people should keep wearing masks?" And if there isn't...then they lose credibility there.

[Defiant]

I say allow the Republican in the House to take off their masks. Given their behavior during the Trump years, at least we know they'll still keep their mouth covered (along with their eyes and ears) which is better than nothing.