The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

[stessier]

Ok, just one more. Story coming out of St. Maarten. Unlike FL or TX, everyone is required to demonstrate proof of vaccination prior to cruise and submit to testing prior to the start and end of the cruise. Cruise left last Saturday (6/5) and prior to the passengers final disembark today, two of them tested positive.

I can only imagine what's going to happen on a cruise that doesn't require vaccination.

Just to clarify, you are only calling out the FL and TX plan, right? Because I see nothing wrong with a fully vaccinated cruise even if some people end up positive. In a fully vaccinated world, there will still be positive people.

[Smoove_B]

It also reinforces how important it is to continue to test people that have been vaccinated - if for no other reason to get a handle on breakthrough infections. The broad policy on no longer recommending we test vaccinated people without symptoms is mind-blowing (for me); it goes against one of the core elements of public health - data collection.

Just to clarify, you are only calling out the FL and TX plan, right?

Correct. Having fully vaccinated cruises makes sense - what they're doing here is going above and beyond CDC recommendations and I'd hope their patrons appreciate it. Allowing people to say they're vaccinated and to just trust they're telling the truth is madness.

[stessier]

It also reinforces how important it is to continue to test people that have been vaccinated - if for no other reason to get a handle on breakthrough infections. The broad policy on no longer recommending we test vaccinated people without symptoms is mind-blowing (for me); it goes against one of the core elements of public health - data collection.

Just to clarify, you are only calling out the FL and TX plan, right?

Correct. Having fully vaccinated cruises makes sense - what they're doing here is going above and beyond CDC recommendations and I'd hope their patrons appreciate it. Allowing people to say they're vaccinated and to just trust they're telling the truth is madness.

What would the plan be for testing vaccinated people (in a practical sense)? I wouldn't agree to getting the deep nasal test, but if there was something less intrusive, I could get on board.

[Alefroth]

I wonder if having to pay your treatment cost out of pocket would be an incentive to vaccinate.

[LordMortis]

It's especially important to me because I was literally just told this morning that data suggests if I get infected and am asymptomatic it won't pass to others supported by this:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html

I'll continue masking and trying to protect others the only way I reasonably can while you collect more data on breakthrough infections.

[stessier]

It's especially important to me because I was literally just told this morning that data suggests if I get infected and am asymptomatic it won't pass to others supported by this:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html

I'll continue masking and trying to protect others the only way I reasonably can while you collect more data on breakthrough infections.

So here's the deal, there will be breakthrough infections and you will be able to pass it on to other people...if you look at a data set big enough. Wasn't it 1,000 infections out of 31 million people? And there was like 100 hospitalizations and 1 death, although I think it was linked to old age and not directly to COVID. So, as ND has said, it comes down to what risk you are willing to take, because it will never be 0.

[Zaxxon]

It's especially important to me because I was literally just told this morning that data suggests if I get infected and am asymptomatic it won't pass to others supported by this:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html

I'll continue masking and trying to protect others the only way I reasonably can while you collect more data on breakthrough infections.

So here's the deal, there will be breakthrough infections and you will be able to pass it on to other people...if you look at a data set big enough. Wasn't it 1,000 infections out of 31 million people? And there was like 100 hospitalizations and 1 death, although I think it was linked to old age and not directly to COVID. So, as ND has said, it comes down to what risk you are willing to take, because it will never be 0.

This.

[LordMortis]

My mom is not young. Going back to the selfishness over public good, my actions are rooted in selfishness. Mom isn't getting vaccinated and I am giving the entire world the same courtesy I am taking for my mother. Also, spread in Michigan is still high and there are no daily reports differentiating between breakout cases and non breakout cases.

It wasn't but a couple of weeks ago it was being reported there were no deaths and no hospitalizations with breakout cases and then a news cycle death happened the next day and reports about deaths and hospitalizations changed.

I have no problem being patient around those unvaccinated or in situations where I can't possibly know while I wait for people in lab coats to move what comes after...

It also reinforces how important it is to continue to test people that have been vaccinated - if for no other reason to get a handle on breakthrough infections.

[Smoove_B]

What would the plan be for testing vaccinated people (in a practical sense)? I wouldn't agree to getting the deep nasal test, but if there was something less intrusive, I could get on board.

There should be an active, voluntary data pool (people just submit to random testing) and doctors (in hospitals, PCPs, etc...) should still be testing people that come in as well as part of their differential diagnosis. Unfortunately, yeah, I think the nasal swab remains the best option here so I can appreciate how that would make this less desirable overall.

[coopasonic]

You had no links. You were just asking questions?

At least your link answered my question. They were vaccinated.

allegedly

[Kurth]

We leave for Hawaii (Maui) on Monday. HI doesn’t seem to care much about vaccinations (unless you were actually vaccinated in HI). To avoid quarantining once you arrive, you have to provide proof of a negative test 72 hours before your flight. We got ours yesterday afternoon and were all negative, which was no surprise since we are all vaccinated.

My sister’s family was supposed to join us, traveling from FL. Things didn’t go so well for them. She and her husband are both vaccinated, but their three kids are all under 12 and not vaccinated. Their last day of school was on Thursday. They went for their tests the next day, and all three kids tested positive for COVID. They spent the last day or so cancelling all their plans and trying to get whatever refunds they can. They are beyond bummed, and we are, too, since we were really looking forward to hanging out with them after such a long separation.

But . . . perspective. The kids are all asymptomatic and doing fine, so that’s what’s really important. I really do hope the FDA kicks it into gear, though, and gets the vaccine approved for kids under 12. I’ve heard that may not happen before school starts this fall. That is so unacceptable. I would think the top priority right now would be getting that done, and everything humanly possible should be done to accelerate that process.

One final note: On the testing, this is the second time now that I’ve been tested for COVID. I fully admit I’m a wimp, but that test is terrible. People are not going to embrace regular testing until we can do something to make that test feel less like an alien probe is trying to take a sample of your brain!

[gilraen]

What would the plan be for testing vaccinated people (in a practical sense)? I wouldn't agree to getting the deep nasal test, but if there was something less intrusive, I could get on board.

There should be an active, voluntary data pool (people just submit to random testing) and doctors (in hospitals, PCPs, etc...) should still be testing people that come in as well as part of their differential diagnosis. Unfortunately, yeah, I think the nasal swab remains the best option here so I can appreciate how that would make this less desirable overall.

Would there be a pretty high percentage of false negatives, when doing the nasal swab to test for breakthrough infections in vaccinated people? I would seem to me the the viral load in most of them be low enough (with the vaccine fighting it) that there wouldn't be enough in the nasal cavity for the test to pick up. Especially if the person is asymptomatic.

[Smoove_B]

I really do hope the FDA kicks it into gear, though, and gets the vaccine approved for kids under 12. I’ve heard that may not happen before school starts this fall. That is so unacceptable. I would think the top priority right now would be getting that done, and everything humanly possible should be done to accelerate that process.

It's absolutely a priority, but they can't rush anything - it takes as long as it takes to administer the vaccines, figure out if the dose matters (there's been talk of adjusting it for younger kids) and verify everything is safe.

This is why it's critically important for anyone over the age of 12 to get vaccinated as we're all acting as barriers for spread to kids. I wish people widely understood and this and willingly vaccinated - you know, for the children.

Regardless, there's a good overview of the talk they just had on Thursday, covering all the major issues.

It's tough - so much depends right now on what people aged 12+ are doing and what the local conditions are in terms of what you could likely expect in the Fall of 2021. The lower the community vaccination rate, the greater the risk for kids under 12 - that's really the core message. I don't think they're going to rush anything on this at all - no one wants to be the person that gave approval to a vaccine that somehow ends ups causing immediate harm to 5 year olds.

It's a tough call because I think the Fall surge is a very real threat. I said it before - I genuinely feel for parents that have children under 12; society has already told them the pandemic is over and there's nothing more to worry about. It's disgusting.

[Smoove_B]

Would there be a pretty high percentage of false negatives, when doing the nasal swab to test for breakthrough infections in vaccinated people? I would seem to me the the viral load in most of them be low enough (with the vaccine fighting it) that there wouldn't be enough in the nasal cavity for the test to pick up. Especially if the person is asymptomatic.

I don't know - they might need to refine the tests. I think they'd only know once they start gathering tons and tons of data. Maybe they'd come up with a new test or tell the people administering them to go deeper.

But seriously, yeah, the idea that the viral low is really low hasn't been fully tested - I believe it's just a probable theory. This would be a way to get more data on that as well.

[Unagi]

Should I lie, and get my 11.5 year old vaccinated before the school year starts?

[stessier]

Should I lie, and get my 11.5 year old vaccinated before the school year starts?

Mine turns 12 on Aug 6th. School starts the following week. I'm so tempted....it would allow us to do stuff this summer too.

[stessier]

I really do hope the FDA kicks it into gear, though, and gets the vaccine approved for kids under 12. I’ve heard that may not happen before school starts this fall. That is so unacceptable. I would think the top priority right now would be getting that done, and everything humanly possible should be done to accelerate that process.

It's not really the FDA, it's Pfizer, Moderna, etc. They have to complete the trials and gather the data. The FDA part has been happening in around a month, which is really quite good.

[Smoove_B]

Should I lie, and get my 11.5 year old vaccinated before the school year starts?

Mine turns 12 on Aug 6th. School starts the following week. I'm so tempted....it would allow us to do stuff this summer too.

I couldn't provide guidance here, but I would 100% understand if you did.

[gbasden]

Should I lie, and get my 11.5 year old vaccinated before the school year starts?

Mine turns 12 on Aug 6th. School starts the following week. I'm so tempted....it would allow us to do stuff this summer too.

I couldn't provide guidance here, but I would 100% understand if you did.

I believe what Smoove wants to say is hell to the yes.

[LawBeefaroni]

You think the ‘be honest and sign up for the cumbersome method that costs you money’ will be something that works ?

How's this:

Everyone who boards has to wear a bracelet. One bracelet says ,"I am vaccinated" and is free. The other days, "I am not vaccinated" and costs $100.

Right. And the answer is always. “We will take the free ‘vaccinated’ bracelets, thanks “

People who pay $50 for a MAGA hat will drop $100 to wear a freedom bracelet on a cruise.

[coopasonic]

Should I lie, and get my 11.5 year old vaccinated before the school year starts?

Mine turns 12 on Aug 6th. School starts the following week. I'm so tempted....it would allow us to do stuff this summer too.

My youngest turns 12 a few weeks after school starts. I've had the same thought.

[Daehawk]

https://twitter.com/gorskon/status/1403747231983865856

[Smoove_B]

America, 2021:

A cashier is dead and two people were wounded after a shooting broke out following an argument inside a Georgia store Monday afternoon over its COVID-19 mask policy, authorities said.

...

[Kasey Chang]

America, 2021:

A cashier is dead and two people were wounded after a shooting broke out following an argument inside a Georgia store Monday afternoon over its COVID-19 mask policy, authorities said.

...

TL;DR -- guy went in shopping maskless. When reminded by cashier that he needs to mask up at checkout, he left the stuff there, retrieved a gun from his car, and shot the cashier dead. The security guard (and off-duty cop) pulled his weapon on the guy, the guy fired back hitting the cop twice in the vest. The cop fired and took down the guy (non-fatal).

On the other hand, NOT directly related... Are the cops getting super-short-tempered as well? There was that story about woman in Arkansas suing the state trooper who PITed her car and ended up flipping her even though she had her hazards on and was only going 25 mph in the right lane looking for a shoulder to pull off onto. She was heavily pregnant at the time. Apparently she didn't pull over "fast enough" to the trooper's liking. Based on trooper's dashcam, from the time he switched on his lights and sirens to the time he PITed her was only 2 minutes. And the state driver's handbook DID recommend that the vehicle being pulled over should slow, turn on hazards, and proceed to nearest exit if there are no shoulders to pull over.

[Kraken]

America, 2021:

A cashier is dead and two people were wounded after a shooting broke out following an argument inside a Georgia store Monday afternoon over its COVID-19 mask policy, authorities said.

...

TL;DR -- guy went in shopping maskless. When reminded by cashier that he needs to mask up at checkout, he left the stuff there, retrieved a gun from his car, and shot the cashier dead. The security guard (and off-duty cop) pulled his weapon on the guy, the guy fired back hitting the cop twice in the vest. The cop fired and took down the guy (non-fatal).

On the other hand, NOT directly related... Are the cops getting super-short-tempered as well? There was that story about woman in Arkansas suing the state trooper who PITed her car and ended up flipping her even though she had her hazards on and was only going 25 mph in the right lane looking for a shoulder to pull off onto. She was heavily pregnant at the time. Apparently she didn't pull over "fast enough" to the trooper's liking. Based on trooper's dashcam, from the time he switched on his lights and sirens to the time he PITed her was only 2 minutes. And the state driver's handbook DID recommend that the vehicle being pulled over should slow, turn on hazards, and proceed to nearest exit if there are no shoulders to pull over.

The linked story doesn't say, but I believe she was two months pregnant -- not "heavily." Not that that changes anything...

[malchior]

Yeah the officer couldn't have known that she was pregnant or whatever. The dashcam footage of him talking to her was what made me angry. The way he talks to her? The officer is a straight up problem. That isn't a person I believe should be making life and death decisions.

[Smoove_B]

It saddens me that we're apparently going to get the best data about "breakthrough infections" from companies like Royal Caribbean:

Royal Caribbean postponed the inaugural sailing of its cruise ship Odyssey of the Seas after eight vaccinated crew members tested positive for Covid-19, the company's CEO said.

...

"All 1,400 crew onboard Odyssey of the Seas were vaccinated on June 4th and will be considered fully vaccinated on June 18. The positive cases were identified after the vaccination was given and before they were fully effective," Bayley said.
The company pushed back the Odyssey's inaugural sailing from July 3 to July 31. It was set to sail from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and make several stops in the Caribbean. A simulation cruise originally scheduled for late June will also be rescheduled.

[stessier]

Is that really considered a breakthrough if they weren't two weeks past the second shot?

[Smoove_B]

I'm actually not sure, so I'll let the academics argue over it.

[LawBeefaroni]

Crew of 1,400? Damn, that's insane.


My guess is that they got jabbed and then went out and partied.

[El Guapo]

Also shouldn't the cruise line require employees to be two weeks past the second shot to be included in the crew?

[Smoove_B]

I did do more research and the true (aka CDC) accepted definition of a "Breakthrough case" is going to be for someone that is in the
"fully vaccinated" (based on the type of vaccine they have) category. So *technically* these would not be considered breakthrough cases by the CDCs case definitions.

Which I'm sure like 5 people care about, but I did want to learn more myself. I don't know how we term or label people that have incomplete vaccinations and end up with COVID-19, in terms of labeling them as a data set (other than calling them incomplete vaccination cases, I guess).

Carry on.

[Blackhawk]

So, it turns out that the local hospital - the one Michelle works at - has a vaccination problem. Specifically, the employees received priority access to the vaccine, and yet all of these months later they are only at about 50% vaccinated and not budging. So yesterday they announced that anybody who takes their completed vaccine card to HR gets a $200 bonus. That's actually a good move in the face of the failure of mandating vaccination in other locations in the state (IU had major issues after mandating it recently.

As a side note, when Michelle was pregnant, we chose to drive 35 miles to the next town to give birth. We did this with both kids, despite living less than a mile from the hospital here. Now you know why. As I get older, I really want to be away from here. If you have a life-threatening problem after business hours and go to the local hospital, they have to call a doctor to come in from home to treat you.

[Smoove_B]

Yup. Unless the hospital mandates it, this is exactly what I'd expect (using the annual influenza vaccination as a proxy) - national numbers hover around 50% +/- 10% or so. The hospital needs to adopt a mandatory policy and fire those that refuse to comply, end of story. It's laudable that they're offering a cash bonus, but my tolerance for front-line medical professionals that are also vehemently against vaccination is near zero.

In other news, the lunatics behind the Great Barrington Declaration are back it it, writing an OpEd for The Hill:

The idea that everyone must be vaccinated against COVID-19 is as misguided as the anti-vax idea that no one should. The former is more dangerous for public health. The COVID-19 vaccines have been one of the few bright spots during this pandemic. While anyone can get infected, the old have a thousand-fold higher mortality risk than the young.

By vaccinating older people, the country has saved thousands of lives.

There is intense pressure on young adults and children to be vaccinated. Universities such as Colombia, Cornell, Harvard and Stanford require all students to get the shot as a condition of attending college normally. Young people looking for work are discriminated against if they are not vaccinated. It makes public health sense to require some vaccinations in some settings. However, in the case of COVID vaccines for young people, such mandates harm public health.

Beyond disgusting that (1) they'd write it and (2) someone would publish it.

[LordMortis]

my tolerance for front-line medical professionals that are also vehemently against vaccination is near zero.

Coming form a position of ignorance and relying the experts, this is where I was when this started to look like it would be a thing in December and I went full jaw drop mode... Maybe... maybe expecting mothers... aside from that, DJT your're fired /DJT. No religious exemption. No my body my choice. No I might have kids later in life. You get on board with the wisdom of your collective profession for the sake of public health or you find another one. I hold a great deal of regard for what the whole profession has been through in the last 18 months. I great deal of regard. But that's the limit. That "choice" is at odds with the regard, deference, respect, I hold.

[Kasey Chang]

Now we have C-list celebs and a bunch of self-proclaimed rights activists (i.e. antivaxxers with inflated ego) protesting outside vaxxed-only concerts.

Schroder, star of "The Champ" and "Silver Spoons," has been fairly vocal about his baseless suspicions about the COVID-19 vaccine, and his criticisms of policies that require or encourage it.

[Blackhawk]

What they should do is being undercut by what they can do. A small town hospital is not going to be able to mandate the vaccine in Indiana. The state government would stomp them as soon as any single individual gave them the opportunity, and I can guarantee that there would be a formal complaint within hours of any mandate that would do just that. If IU can't pull it off, they can't.

This isn't medical officials, this is politics.

[Smoove_B]

Oh yeah, absolutely. If the state isn't going to support it (by requiring that a hospital's license include that they have a vaccination policy for workers), then it's DOA. I mean, OHIO has it in place (though I admit it's been targeted right now for repeal), anyone can do it.

You're right though - it's politics, and it's unfortunate because the people that are going to suffer the brunt of these decisions are the patients and their families.

[Smoove_B]

BIDEN'S PLAN IS A TOTAL FAILURE

(or what I'm assuming the headlines are on Fox)

The country is not on pace to hit his two main targets outlined in early May: fully vaccinating 160 million adult Americans and administering at least one shot to 70% of adults across the U.S. by July 4, according to a CNBC analysis of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data.

About 65% of adults are at least partially vaccinated as of Wednesday, CDC data shows. Roughly 13.6 million would have to receive their first shot over the next 18 days to get that figure to 70%, an average of about 756,000 new vaccinations each day. The U.S., however, is averaging 336,000 newly vaccinated adults per day over the past week.

If the U.S. maintains that latest seven-day average, 67% of adults will be at least partially vaccinated by that day.

I could almost believe there are people intentionally not vaccinating to make sure they can say they helped this to fail - as a point of pride.

[Smoove_B]

I'd expect to see stories just like this over the next six months:

A COVID-19 outbreak that killed two IT staffers in Manatee County government and hospitalized three others has forced the shutdown of the county's administrative building in downtown Bradenton.

...

On Monday, one of four IT staffers who had been hospitalized with COVID-19 died, according to Hopes. A fifth IT staffer who went to the doctor on Wednesday, died at home Thursday from COVID-19.

One staffer in the department who worked closely with the other five and didn't contract the coronavirus was vaccinated. All five who contracted the virus were known not to be vaccinated and had a sore throat as their initial primary complaint.

...

Both staffers who have died, a man and a woman, were in their 50's. Those who were hospitalized were as young as their late 30's, according to Hopes, causing him concern that we could be seeing one of the stronger variants in these cases.