The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

[Zaxxon]

Not politics per se, but headline discussions are basically journalism politics, so...

The costs of selling COVID fear

The frequency of grossly misleading headlines regarding COVID have been annoying me for some time.

[El Guapo]

Just checked the CDC transmission map related to vaccinated mask use. Looks like my county (Suffolk) is still "low transmission" and thus no masks, but most other Massachusetts counties are high transmission now. So...good thing people don't travel across counties.

[stessier]

Just checked the CDC transmission map related to vaccinated mask use. Looks like my county (Suffolk) is still "low transmission" and thus no masks, but most other Massachusetts counties are high transmission now. So...good thing people don't travel across counties.

Are you sure? I just used your link and it says Substantial.

[El Guapo]

Just checked the CDC transmission map related to vaccinated mask use. Looks like my county (Suffolk) is still "low transmission" and thus no masks, but most other Massachusetts counties are high transmission now. So...good thing people don't travel across counties.

Are you sure? I just used your link and it says Substantial.

ah, you're right. You know what it is? When you pick a county off the map it puts a blue-ish border on the county. Only Suffolk county is small on the state map, so the blue-ish "border" basically covers the whole county, and causes the county to appear blue (which is low transmission). But if you select a different county it's obvious that Suffolk is red (high transmission).

Oh well.

[malchior]

I was just watching MSNBC and the reporter just claimed that the CDC has a data issue that they (the CDC) doesn't know how many breakthrough cases exist and are relying on data from other countries. This can't be true, right?

I wonder because I don't know if anyone is in the same mind frame as me but one of the things I can't parse is how we keep hearing breakthroughs are rare. I'm personally hearing about breakthrough cases from friends. I personally know of at least 3 who got a positive test -- definitely vaccinated and luckily mild -- but with this and the P-town outbreak this doesn't scream rare to me. People are shitty at evaluating risk but we're especially shitty when we can't get decent information from *anybody* that is reliable.

[The Meal]

Define breakthrough.

Is it a positive test or is it an infection that’s taken root outside a person’s sinuses?

[Zarathud]

Chicago lunch the day after Lollapalooza — only 4/6 masked employees and a mostly full dining room. At best 50% masking of customers. Like pouring gasoline on the fire.

[Smoove_B]

I'm personally hearing about breakthrough cases from friends.

So yeah, this is a huge point of confusion. Breakthrough isn't when someone that is vaccinated develops mild symptoms; this was always within the expected results. To be clear, I'm using "mild" as "does not require hospitalization"; symptoms might require bed rest and knock you for a loop, but at no point is medical care urgent.

True "breakthrough" is when having the vaccine provides little to no protection and the individual develops illness to the degree that requires hospitalization and/or you have a vaccinated person that dies from COVID-19.

Delta is seemingly making it more likely that (1) vaccinated people can spread the virus and (2) potentially experience symptoms. What hasn't changed is hospitalizations and deaths for vaccinated people - the vaccine is still overwhelmingly protective (for now).

Everything I've read (and my understanding) is that asymptomatic vaccinated people are not spreading Delta. However, if you're vaccinated and are experiencing symptoms (respiratory - runny nose, sneezing, etc...) then you should be self quarantining as you could be potentially spreading the virus. Where I'm still fuzzy is testing if you're vaccinated. I keep hearing mixed things as what is expected (and more importantly) what is being covered (insurance) in terms of being tested (as a vaccinated person).

Prior to Delta there was no data to suggest a symptomatic person (again, not a breakthrough, just symptomatic) could spread the virus because the virus was at [X] level in a vaccinated, symptomatic person.

However, Delta has changed the equation and for symptomatic people, the virus is at level [X^10], making transmission of the virus more likely to others.

[malchior]

Got it - it's terminology. Thanks for the quick explainer.

[Little Raven]

Misery loves company.

But now, it seems that the fearmongering is backfiring and impeding the Kremlin’s push to vaccinate its own people. The sale of counterfeit vaccination certificates is currently the most widespread type of online fraud in Russia, and some are so desperate to dodge the jab that they’re allegedly ordering prosthetic arms to fool medical personnel.

“So far, the most f’d up story about anti-vaxxers was brought to me by a makeup effects artist who made us costumes for our last shoot. She has a workshop, where they make props and prosthetics,” Russian film producer Rosya Skrypnik tweeted last month. “Every week someone tries to order a silicone pad that could be applied to the arm, so that the vaccine would be injected into a ‘fake shoulder.’”

The producer wrote that initially, she thought the makeup artist was joking. But then, her colleague showed her “DMs to her workshop, where people are offering unlimited amounts of money for a prosthetic arm they could wear to a mandatory vaccination. When the props masters patiently explain that the doctor would recognize a prop, and that this works only in the movies, the anti-vaxxers just offer more money.”

TikTok personality Nika Viper helped popularize the nutty idea with her video, demonstrating a mock vaccination with a prosthetic arm. It received nearly 20,000 likes. Some of the comments read: “I’d pay any amount of money for this,” “Can I borrow the arm?” and “This vaccine is dangerous.”

[Smoove_B]

For my fellow OO parents that are wrestling with their school districts; I offer in support as I believe that only an overwhelming majority of parents hammering on local school districts now will apparently force them to institute masking policies for the new school year. It's unreal to me that with everything unfolding now (even as kids in schools are getting infected as I write this), there are still (maskless) throngs of parents screaming that kids must be maskless.

https://twitter.com/vlamers/status/1422319160449814534

Watch this thread of clips and tell me again how we need a “cost-benefit analysis” of kids’ lives.

[Kraken]

Just checked the CDC transmission map related to vaccinated mask use. Looks like my county (Suffolk) is still "low transmission" and thus no masks, but most other Massachusetts counties are high transmission now. So...good thing people don't travel across counties.

I'll stay out of Suffolk if you stay out of Norfolk. And: Why is Suffolk north of Norfolk?

[Isgrimnur]

It's about the folk, not the location they currently inhabit.

[LawBeefaroni]

COVID has never been "almost slain."

No, but for a month or so around May and June it felt that way in the US, or at least where I live. We had a narrow window of opportunity then if people had just kept rolling up their sleeves. Even then, when I reminded friends that "this isn't over" I didn't say it with much conviction. I was befuddled by an unfamiliar emotion called "hope." But that moment passed and I got over it.

It was sold that way. As someone who spent 5 months as a closet vaccinated, it was unbelievable to me to watch the "got the shot, this is over" attitude that was prevalent in May/June. At this point though, I'm over it. We have shown who we are and there is nothing I can do to change that. I'll do my best to keep my kids safe and I'm pushing vaccination programs at work. Beyond that, que sera sera.

[Zaxxon]

Our health department doing their best to pass the buck, acknowledging the updated CDC guidance of universal school masking but doing nothing heading into the school year. Instead, they'll wait for further official publication from the CDC and subsequent comments from the state health dept before making any local changes. Because maybe the CDC will change their mind?

School starts on Monday.

[Smoove_B]

I am so sorry. Are the local districts at least allowing students to wear masks? That's not going to be great (as it will target your kids for bullying and unwanted negative attention), but I still don't know what I'd be doing right now. We have no remote schooling option anymore in NJ and the idea of home schooling sounds daunting, but I legitimately think I'd be walking on eggshells waiting for my child to get sick.

Speaking of children, I'm tangentially following a UNC professor on Twitter that has indicated he's spoken with numerous students that know of fellow students that have supplied fake vaccination credentials to the school. He checked the UNC policy for submitting vaccination info and it's basically voluntary and there's no acknowledgement on the form they submit that they're certifying it's truthful.

So...I'd expect there to be an outbreak at some point and if it's a snapshot into what's happening at other colleges...

[Smoove_B]

https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status ... 3531234314

NYT: " Mayor Blasio plans to announce that NYC will require proof of vaccination for participating in indoor activities, including restaurants, gyms and performances

"Policy is similar to mandates issued in France and Italy last month. believed to be the first of its kind in US"

[Zaxxon]

I am so sorry. Are the local districts at least allowing students to wear masks? That's not going to be great (as it will target your kids for bullying and unwanted negative attention

Yes, and thankfully the other kids and parents we've interacted with have been pretty good about not calling attention to it in a negative manner. I do worry especially about my 4th-grader, though, as that seems old enough where there could be some in-class bullying.

[El Guapo]

Speaking of children, I'm tangentially following a UNC professor on Twitter that has indicated he's spoken with numerous students that know of fellow students that have supplied fake vaccination credentials to the school. He checked the UNC policy for submitting vaccination info and it's basically voluntary and there's no acknowledgement on the form they submit that they're certifying it's truthful.

So...I'd expect there to be an outbreak at some point and if it's a snapshot into what's happening at other colleges...

One thing that I've been wondering about with some of the breakthrough outbreaks (like Provincetown) is whether any of the people involved might be lying about having been vaccinated. Generally you're nominally still required to be masked if you're unvaccinated and indoors, right? So people who partied and were subsequently speaking to authorities might well say that they were vaccinated even if they weren't (especially in a place like MA where the social pressure is more to get vaccinated).

[Smoove_B]

I cannot imagine personally being involved an outbreak investigation at this point where the focus is a school or event (party, wedding, etc...) and not actually verifying vaccination status.

[stessier]

I am so sorry. Are the local districts at least allowing students to wear masks? That's not going to be great (as it will target your kids for bullying and unwanted negative attention

Yes, and thankfully the other kids and parents we've interacted with have been pretty good about not calling attention to it in a negative manner. I do worry especially about my 4th-grader, though, as that seems old enough where there could be some in-class bullying.

My 4 days short of 12 year old is going to volleyball tryouts yesterday and today. She is the only one masked. One of the girls asked why she was wearing it and she said because she wasn't vaccinated. The other girl said that was good (that she wasn't vaccinated) and that she wasn't either. My kid said "So that made it clear where she stood and I slowly backed away." All I could imagine was the Homer Into The Hedge gif.

[LawBeefaroni]

I cannot imagine personally being involved an outbreak investigation at this point where the focus is a school or event (party, wedding, etc...) and not actually verifying vaccination status.

I can't either but on what authority? Isn't that information voluntary?

This is the problem with mask mandates. Most of the time the people tasked with enforcing them have no authority or means to do so.

[Smoove_B]

At this point it seems likely to me that there's going to be large-scale outbreaks at schools all across America over the next month and a significant number of kids will become ill; with that, a few kids are going to be in real bad shape and some will die. There will be closures (2+ weeks) and disruptions to instruction as schools scramble to implement remote learning to bridge short-term closures. Parents are going to scream and yell and employers are going to scream and yell. Everyone will wonder how it happened and why it wasn't stopped.

[Smoove_B]

I can't either but on what authority? Isn't that information voluntary?

While I can't speak to all 50 states, when there's a disease outbreak in mine, local health authorities have all kinds of access to additional information - including vaccination history.

And yes, people have screamed "You're violating my HIPPO rights!" when you call and ask questions. However, they don't remember that in the mountain of paperwork they've signed to get medical care or even to just visit their doctor, they've indicated that sharing health information with a state or local health agency is part of the deal.

[Zaxxon]

My 4 days short of 12 year old is going to volleyball tryouts yesterday and today. She is the only one masked. One of the girls asked why she was wearing it and she said because she wasn't vaccinated. The other girl said that was good (that she wasn't vaccinated) and that she wasn't either. My kid said "So that made it clear where she stood and I slowly backed away." All I could imagine was the Homer Into The Hedge gif.

This is why we can't have nice things.

At this point it seems likely to me that there's going to be large-scale outbreaks at schools all across America over the next month and a significant number of kids will become ill; with that, a few kids are going to be in real bad shape and some will die. There will be closures (2+ weeks) and disruptions to instruction as schools scramble to implement remote learning to bridge short-term closures. Parents are going to scream and yell and employers are going to scream and yell. Everyone will wonder how it happened and why it wasn't stopped.

Totally unforeseeable.

[LawBeefaroni]

I can't either but on what authority? Isn't that information voluntary?

While I can't speak to all 50 states, when there's a disease outbreak in mine, local health authorities have all kinds of access to additional information - including vaccination history.

And yes, people have screamed "You're violating my HIPPO rights!" when you call and ask questions. However, they don't remember that in the mountain of paperwork they've signed to get medical care or even to just visit their doctor, they've indicated that sharing health information with a state or local health agency is part of the deal.

And when you explain that to them, how do you compel them?

We have BAs* sending us patient lists for unvaccinated and when our call center calls to schedule, the patients get upset and demand to know how we have their info or they say NOYFB and hang up. Plus side, we still get people who want to get vaccinated too, but we are way under capacity at the vaccination clinic.


Edit *BAs are business associates, that is an entity who we are allowed to share patient info with for purposes of care/insurance.

[Smoove_B]

And when you explain that to them, how do you compel them?

Ask first. After they refuse, you go over their heads and pull the data directly from the state's database.

We have BAs sending us patient lists for unvaccinated and when our call center calls to schedule, the patients get upset and demand to know how we have their info or they say NOYFB and hang up. Plus side, we still get people who want to get vaccinated too, but we are way under capacity at the vaccination clinic.

It's probably a different set of circumstances covering the same set of rules. Where your end is "customer service" based, I'm coming at it as an investigator. I'm always going to ask for the information first, but if you refuse, it's not going to ultimately get in my way of learning what I need to know in order to stop an outbreak.

[LawBeefaroni]

And when you explain that to them, how do you compel them?

Ask first. After they refuse, you go over their heads and pull the data directly from the state's database.

We have BAs sending us patient lists for unvaccinated and when our call center calls to schedule, the patients get upset and demand to know how we have their info or they say NOYFB and hang up. Plus side, we still get people who want to get vaccinated too, but we are way under capacity at the vaccination clinic.

It's probably a different set of circumstances covering the same set of rules. Where your end is "customer service" based, I'm coming at it as an investigator. I'm always going to ask for the information first, but if you refuse, it's not going to ultimately get in my way of learning what I need to know in order to stop an outbreak.

Why bother calling in the first place?

[Isgrimnur]

Even when someone is offering their face to the leopards, the better amongst us still try to save them.

[Smoove_B]

Why bother calling in the first place?

Be nice...until it's time to not be nice.

Honestly, it's how I was taught. But given the animosity towards tracers (and how that ripples into what contact tracing looks for other illnesses moving forward), I'm not sure what will become the new norm. In my experience I've gained more valuable information via interviews than reviewing records, fwiw.

[LawBeefaroni]

Even when someone is offering their face to the leopards, the better amongst us still try to save them.

Sure, but when you can go big data, why engage? That was the question.

Why bother calling in the first place?

Be nice...until it's time to not be nice.

Honestly, it's how I was taught. But given the animosity towards tracers (and how that ripples into what contact tracing looks for other illnesses moving forward), I'm not sure what will become the new norm. In my experience I've gained more valuable information via interviews than reviewing records, fwiw.

Understandable but those productive interviews may be fewer and farther between now days. It may become a resource management issue. Especially given the disdain we're currently showing for public health.

[Daehawk]

Chattanooga mayor said they are having trouble filling drivers positions for the city...garbage collection and such. They raised pay by about 40%...now yearly is $45,000. Man...garbage truck drivers making $3500 a month...wow.

[Daehawk]

Top RNC official in Florida spreads Covid-19 conspiracies, calling vaccines the 'mark of the beast'

You really cant get much more stupid and evil than a GOP member. No better way to have people stay stupid and die than put the fear of religion in there face. People like him shouldn't be allowed in public never mind is positions of power.

Amid recent surging coronavirus cases in Florida, a top Republican National Committee official in the state has spread anti-vaccine rhetoric and misinformation, comparing the Biden administration's vaccine efforts to Nazi-era "brown shirts," and twice calling the vaccines "the mark of the beast," comparable to a "false god."
A review by CNN's KFile found that Peter Feaman, a lawyer and RNC committeeman from Florida made the comments on his blog the "The Backhoe Chronicles," which he publishes regularly in a private group on MeWe. The social media platform bills itself as the "anti-Facebook" app.
"The Biden brown shirts are beginning to show up at private homes questioning vaccine papers," Feaman wrote on July 20, incorrectly implying government officials would be showing up at people's homes to question their vaccination status, comparing them to the Nazi Party paramilitary wing.

Previously, he supported far-right Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, who used the term and faced swift backlash.

[Smoove_B]

Chattanooga mayor said they are having trouble filling drivers positions for the city...garbage collection and such. They raised pay by about 40%...now yearly is $45,000. Man...garbage truck drivers making $3500 a month...wow.

There was a new rule put into place in 2018 or 2019 that required new and specific training for a CDL. As a result, there's been shortages nationwide in the number of drivers that aren't able to or are unwilling to qualify.

[Smoove_B]

Here's one of the reasons we're going to be revising numbers for years and won't ever truly know the number of people COVID-19 affected.

COVID-19 is as much a political issue as a personal tragedy for some families. They don’t want the virus on any official record for their dead loved one. For others, restrictions on hospital or nursing home visits made death and the grieving process almost unbearable. The word “COVID” had become a cruel reminder of how they couldn’t see their family members as they lay dying and, ultimately, of what they had lost.

So the solution: Leaving COVID-19 off the death certificate entirely — an ethically questionable approach frowned on by much of the U.S. medical community as it tries to ascertain the the deadly extent of the pandemic in rural sections of the country and halt its spread.

The Macon County coroner omitted COVID-19 on at least a half-dozen death certificates in cases where another major factor — pneumonia in an elderly patient or “you know, grandma had one lung and smoked all her life,” for example — could be justified as the sole cause of death.

[LawBeefaroni]

Here's one of the reasons we're going to be revising numbers for years and won't ever truly know the number of people COVID-19 affected.

Won't we eventually just assume they everyone has had it? Won't help with the death numbers but at some point it will have ripped through nearly everyone, right?

[Smoove_B]

Yes, eventually we're all going to get COVID. However, editing death certificates during these first few years of the pandemic while we still have uncontrolled spread is undermining future efforts to get a handle on what happened. It's ironic to me that for the last two years there's been cries that coroners are faking COVID death certificates to inflate numbers and keep everyone afraid, and yet here we have a story that proves the exact opposite. Having accurate numbers is kinda important.

I mean, assuming we're going to try and get a handle on what happened and work to make sure it doesn't happen again. There's still hope for that, right? Hello? Am I the only one in here? Oh boy...

[LawBeefaroni]

Yes, eventually we're all going to get COVID. However, editing death certificates during these first few years of the pandemic while we still have uncontrolled spread is undermining future efforts to get a handle on what happened.

I mean, assuming we're going to try and get a handle on what happened and work to make sure it doesn't happen again. There's still hope for that, right? Hello? Am I the only one in here? Oh boy...

Let's just put all this unpleasantness behind us, K? Don't be a Debbie Downer.

We triumphed, some unfortunate people died from pneumonia and old age, let's move on already. The economy will be humming once all the bums get off the dole.

[Smoove_B]

I was pleasantly surprised to see this:

The Archdiocese of New York has instructed priests not to grant religious exemptions for COVID-19 vaccines, saying that do so would contradict the pope.

“There is no basis for a priest to issue a religious exemption to the vaccine,” stated a July 30 memo from the archdiocese’s chancellor, John P. Cahill, to all pastors, administrators, and parochial vicars in the archdiocese.

“Pope Francis has made it very clear that it is morally acceptable to take any of the vaccines and said we have the moral responsibility to get vaccinated. Cardinal Dolan has said the same,” the memo stated.

[Jaymon]

This is sort of cross pollinating many threads, but

A couple of weeks back, the local school board voted 3-1 to not have masks for this school year. No research, no health checks, no linking to local infection rates, just a vote. 3 old white men, vs one moderate female. She objected heavily, wanted all kinds of things, like, health checks, local infection rates, listening to the CDC for guidance. After they voted over her, those old white men closed the meeting, then held a new closed door emergency meeting the next day, in which they evoked the terminate without cause clause in her contract. So she was fired.

Then, oh boy then, they found a replacement, would you believe its another old man white dude? AND, they managed to do it while the district superintendent was on vacation. Thats who would normally do it, but they found a way to do it with him. The vice superintendent, an old white dude, just happened to know somebody who was qualified for the position, another old white dude. What are the odds?
When the actual superintendent , who is black, got back from vacation and found out about these shenanigans, he resigned, and pointed out lack of faith in the school board.

No the state school ethics committee is involved. You could try and guess what they are investigating, but you would be WRONG. They are investigating why the previous administration hired somebody with a no cause clause in the contract. No cause clauses should not be allowed. That is what they are investigating.

So anyway, we are not sending any kid into that school this year. Trying to get into online charter, and if that fails, will go full home school. The local district just turned into a goddamn shitshow. We ain't going nowhere without a masks.