Corona Virus: It's a Marathon, Not a Sprint

[YellowKing]

One of my FB friends who's constantly posting about how she's proud to not get vaccinated just posted she has COVID. And it's sickening watching people fawn over her and the whole pity party that has arisen out of it. My thought is you made your sick bed, now lie in it.

[stessier]

Insurance companies starting to make the move.

https://twitter.com/dustinpwalsh/status ... 7750265861

ICYMI: Michigan's largest insurers to stop free COVID-19 treatments for patients on Sept. 30. Those infected after that date will be subject to the usual 30% out of pocket costs. If you're hospitalized, that's upwards of $35K-$40K.
Vaccines remain free.

Hopefully this pushes some more people to get vaccinated, but really sucks for people with breakthrough cases or cases in kids who can't yet get vaccinated.

I feel like vaccination status should matter, but I'm surprised to learn that these treatments have been free up to this point.

[LordMortis]

I'm surprised to learn that these treatments have been free up to this point.

This. I knew testing and vaccinations are "free" but they still bill insurance co's something. I had no idea treatment was picked up with no deductible, copay, co-insure. So I guess I won't miss it when it goes away. Of course, it's my goal, that I work very hard at, to not to have to find out.

[noxiousdog]

If we can't vaccine our way out of it there's little we can do. Vaccines are by far the easiest sell. Sure, we can dampen it ... but if vaccines aren't the way out, then ... meh.

Again, not true. There's so much we can do that we aren't. We've just decided (collectively in America) that it's not worth it. We're clearly at "acceptable death" levels right now and we all just chug along; it's gross. Let's see if the sentiment changes in the next 30 days.

How's that? What can we do that would work better or be more widely accepted than a vaccine?

[YellowKing]

As a parent, you know that as soon as you give a child a choice between two options, you're screwed.

It's past time we started treating the public like the children they apparently want to behave like. The problem is that many of those children are governors and Congressmen. It's hard to enforce order when the kids are running the daycare.

[Smoove_B]

How's that? What can we do that would work better or be more widely accepted than a vaccine?

This is where my eye twitches (and where I'm building off of YK's post). We can't set policy during a national emergency based on what would be more widely accepted - infectious disease control isn't a popularity contest by any means. It's pretty clear there's a significant number of people that don't want to do anything and another group that will grumble but do what they're told. We're overwhelmingly not living in a country where people feel out of social obligation that they should be looking out for friends, family, neighbors and random strangers in their communities; it would be nice if they did. Many are ignorant. A significant number are willfully and intentionally refusing.

Over and over multiple studies across different countries have repeatedly demonstrated that NPIs are necessary to curb circulating virus levels and protect those that cannot be vaccinated. The idea that we're sending unvaccinated kids into schools right now without any protections because adults aren't polling strongly enough on mandatory mask use is bananas.

[LawBeefaroni]

It was Mission Accomplished in June. Good luck reverting to Mission Not Accomplished. Politicians don't want it, most of the public doesn't want it. And as we now know, want is far more important than need.

It's just so frustrating because everything can be customized to whatever a state needs based on what's happening. We don't have to hit it at the federal level with the giant hammer like we tried in 2020. We can use a scalpel and fine-tune response like they're doing in Nevada.

But you're right - politicians aren't going to push it, and people aren't asking them to. One again, the vocal minority fringe-wack jobs are driving the response and for whatever reason, politicians are listening to them. I thought I saw some type of poll earlier today (is it too early for polls?) that suggested 40% (or close to it) of registered Republicans supported some type of masking mandate to try and get things under control. But apparently that's not enough to enact meaningful controls at a local level. So we get the never-ending cycle we're in (and will be in) for lord knows how long.

The thing is local only works if you don't have travel. Illinois and Chicago have been pretty good but when there were at least 12 Air BNBs on my block for Market Days, a fest that attracts 100K plus ( a week after Lollapalooza, mind you), you know none of them are doing the "required" quarantine for travel restricted states.

[LawBeefaroni]

CDC is now saying that COVID vaccine can give false negatives on TB tests. Who cares, right? Except that TB negative tests are usually a requirement to work in healthcare facilities. TB testing needs to be deferred at least 4 weeks after a COVID vaccine second dose, delaying a lot of onboarding in healthcare at a critical time. It's only affected about 2% of our hires to date but it's just another gift from the pandemic that keeps on giving..

[LordMortis]

CDC is now saying that COVID vaccine can give false negatives on TB tests. Who cares, right? Except that TB negative tests are usually a requirement to work in healthcare facilities. TB testing needs to be deferred at least 4 weeks after a COVID vaccine second dose, delaying a lot of onboarding in healthcare at a critical time. It's only affected about 2% of our hires to date but it's just another gift from the pandemic that keeps on giving..

Required for me to get my medication so I can be immuncompromized making the need to the vaccine all the more present.

[Smoove_B]

The thing is local only works if you don't have travel. Illinois and Chicago have been pretty good but when there were at least 12 Air BNBs on my block for Market Days, a fest that attracts 100K plus ( a week after Lollapalooza, mind you), you know none of them are doing the "required" quarantine for travel restricted states.

Exactly. It's a larger cultural issue for Americans which means it doesn't have the ability to overpower whatever is happening locally if those local officials are or aren't following recommendations. It's 50 different countries and hundreds of mini-countries within them apparently able to do whatever they want as an infectious disease spreads. Unless we act as one, its going to continue to be chaos and yet there's no mechanism to make that happen.

That's what's so hilarious - it truly is businesses that have the power right now to force the issue, not government. As long as they can operate under current conditions, there isn't any reason to upset customers or employees and force compliance - certainly not when you have an army of lawyers ready to sue on behalf of the aggrieved.

[gilraen]

CDC is now saying that COVID vaccine can give false negatives on TB tests. Who cares, right? Except that TB negative tests are usually a requirement to work in healthcare facilities. TB testing needs to be deferred at least 4 weeks after a COVID vaccine second dose, delaying a lot of onboarding in healthcare at a critical time. It's only affected about 2% of our hires to date but it's just another gift from the pandemic that keeps on giving..

They've known that for a while. I have a lot of client hospitals that added questions about date of last COVID vaccine dose to their TB questionnaires. TB tests aren't always possible anyway, they have ways around that (evaluating any possible TB symptoms or potential exposure to TB cases).

[Little Raven]

We can't set policy during a national emergency based on what would be more widely accepted - infectious disease control isn't a popularity contest by any means.

So we just jettison that whole "consent of the governed" thing? I mean, it's kind of the central pillar of our political philosophy.

I totally get the frustration, but you enter a pandemic with the population you have, not the population you want.

[Smoove_B]

So we just jettison that whole "consent of the governed" thing? I mean, it's kind of the central pillar of our political philosophy.

I guess it boils down to how you think that meshes with how Congress can "provide for...the general Welfare of the United States". Not surprisingly experts differ on the whole capital W welfare thingy as it relates to public health.

I suppose others could argue we elected people to enact protections; the "consent" comes from said election. I'm not a constitutional scholar, so I'll leave those examinations for others.

I totally get the frustration, but you enter a pandemic with the population you have, not the population you want.

Indeed. As I've said earlier, careers are going to be made and PhD degrees earned analyzing the intersection of public health, politics and American culture right now.

[LordMortis]

We can't set policy during a national emergency based on what would be more widely accepted - infectious disease control isn't a popularity contest by any means.

So we just jettison that whole "consent of the governed" thing? I mean, it's kind of the central pillar of our political philosophy.

I totally get the frustration, but you enter a pandemic with the population you have, not the population you want.

For me, I'd not require the vaccine, I'd just make it punitive to not have it. I would require a database/"passport" and then I would start locking the un-vaccinated out of public places and encourage private places to lock you out as well. And by public, I include things I consider utilities, such as food markets and airports. We've locked down the people trying to mitigate against spread for long enough. We've had to "deal with it" for the freedoms of to be in public for those who made the choice to reject public health. Now they can lock down for their freedom of choice and "deal with it". All of this takes in to consideration my relatives for whom I have been showing compassion for the last 19 months.

Yet another case study in why it's good I don't run things, I guess.

[Little Raven]

I guess it boils down to how you think that meshes with how Congress can "provide for...the general Welfare of the United States". Not surprisingly experts differ on the whole capital W welfare thingy as it relates to public health.

I don't think there's a conflict there. If Congress says we need to do a thing, then we need to do it. Our consent was the election, and it can be withdrawn in the midterms.

But Congress won't do anything. They wouldn't even extend the eviction mortarium. Some members of Congress will encourage the CDC or the President to do thing by fiat, but that's because they know Congress won't pass anything. So there's no consent there.

[malchior]

They authorized the agencies and powers that the President is presiding over. It isn't some exercise in positive acknowledgement where every step of the way has to be authorized anew.

[Little Raven]

They authorized the agencies and powers that the President is presiding over. It isn't some exercise in positive acknowledgement where every step of the way has to be authorized anew.

Sure, but the Supreme Court has indicated that they would like Congress to re-affirm that some of these things (like the moratorium) are still above board. Congress is very publicly refusing to do that, which undercuts this argument rather badly.

[Little Raven]

The WHO says booster shots are a terrible idea.

The Africa director at the World Health Organization, Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, criticized the decisions by some wealthy nations to start administering coronavirus booster shots, saying the decisions “make a mockery of vaccine equity” when the African continent is still struggling to get vaccine supplies.

African countries continue to lag far behind other continents in inoculations, with only 2 percent of the continent’s 1.3 billion people fully vaccinated against Covid-19 so far. Though vaccine shipments have accelerated in recent weeks, African nations are still not getting nearly enough to meet their needs, Dr. Moeti said.

Instead of offering additional doses to their already fully vaccinated citizens, she said, rich countries should give priority to poor nations, some of which are being ravaged by the coronavirus pandemic.

“Moves by some countries globally to introduce booster shots threaten the promise of a brighter tomorrow for Africa,” Dr. Moeti said in an online news conference on Thursday. “As some richer countries hoard vaccines, they make a mockery of vaccine equity.”

If the goal is to get the vaccine in as many arms as possible so as to reduce possible mutations, it does seem like booster shots are not the way to go. What does the science say?

[LawBeefaroni]

The WHO says booster shots are a terrible idea.

The Africa director at the World Health Organization, Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, criticized the decisions by some wealthy nations to start administering coronavirus booster shots, saying the decisions “make a mockery of vaccine equity” when the African continent is still struggling to get vaccine supplies.

African countries continue to lag far behind other continents in inoculations, with only 2 percent of the continent’s 1.3 billion people fully vaccinated against Covid-19 so far. Though vaccine shipments have accelerated in recent weeks, African nations are still not getting nearly enough to meet their needs, Dr. Moeti said.

Instead of offering additional doses to their already fully vaccinated citizens, she said, rich countries should give priority to poor nations, some of which are being ravaged by the coronavirus pandemic.

“Moves by some countries globally to introduce booster shots threaten the promise of a brighter tomorrow for Africa,” Dr. Moeti said in an online news conference on Thursday. “As some richer countries hoard vaccines, they make a mockery of vaccine equity.”

If the goal is to get the vaccine in as many arms as possible so as to reduce possible mutations, it does seem like booster shots are not the way to go. What does the science say?

It's not just science. It's also logistics. African nations have had to destroy at least 450,000 doses last I heard. Having them here and getting them into arms there are two entirely different things.


Aso, the "vaccine equity" appeal is laughable in a world where these nations have been economic and developmental victims for over a century. The reason they need our help with the vaccine is because we've seen fit to exploit them shamelessly for our financial and political gain. Endless famine and civil war? No problem. Poverty and lack of modern medicine? OK. Not enough COVID vaccines? CAN NOT STAND!

[malchior]

They authorized the agencies and powers that the President is presiding over. It isn't some exercise in positive acknowledgement where every step of the way has to be authorized anew.

Sure, but the Supreme Court has indicated that they would like Congress to re-affirm that some of these things (like the moratorium) are still above board. Congress is very publicly refusing to do that, which undercuts this argument rather badly.

No it doesn't. This is a leap into a deep chasm of illogic. There is a governance issue for sure (one that I harped on in fact) but it doesn't make the many other things that are lawful any less lawful or legitimate.

[Smoove_B]

Aso, the "vaccine equity" appeal is laughable in a world where these nations have been economic and developmental victims for over a century. The reason they need our help with the vaccine is because we've seen fit to exploit them shamelessly for our financial and political gain. Endless famine and civil war? No problem. Poverty and lack of modern medicine? OK. Not enough COVID vaccines? CAN NOT STAND!

It's a matter of impact. It's sad to say that a person dying in a hospital in Africa or starving in some other country literally has no impact on me. But a virus that uses humans for fuel? Unvaccinated people around the globe absolutely impact me (and all of us). I'm not saying it's right or better or even defensible, but that's where it's coming from.

[Little Raven]

No it doesn't. This is a leap into a deep chasm of illogic. There is a governance issue for sure (one that I harped on in fact) but it doesn't make the many other things that are lawful any less lawful or legitimate.

What "things?"

Anything that isn't unconstitutional is lawful as long as Congress says it is.

[Max Peck]

A fundamental truth about any democracy is that a government that gives away all of their vaccine to needier countries without looking out for their own citizens first and foremost is very unlikely to win rëelection.

[malchior]

No it doesn't. This is a leap into a deep chasm of illogic. There is a governance issue for sure (one that I harped on in fact) but it doesn't make the many other things that are lawful any less lawful or legitimate.

What "things?"

Anything that isn't unconstitutional is lawful as long as Congress says it is.

You've answered it already.

What I was saying was that the idea that the Supreme Court disagreeing with the moratorium but not actually striking it down (which is still an open question) and Congress failing to act doesn't 'badly undercut' any notion that we are governed by consent.

[noxiousdog]

How's that? What can we do that would work better or be more widely accepted than a vaccine?

This is where my eye twitches (and where I'm building off of YK's post). We can't set policy during a national emergency based on what would be more widely accepted - infectious disease control isn't a popularity contest by any means. It's pretty clear there's a significant number of people that don't want to do anything and another group that will grumble but do what they're told. We're overwhelmingly not living in a country where people feel out of social obligation that they should be looking out for friends, family, neighbors and random strangers in their communities; it would be nice if they did. Many are ignorant. A significant number are willfully and intentionally refusing.

Over and over multiple studies across different countries have repeatedly demonstrated that NPIs are necessary to curb circulating virus levels and protect those that cannot be vaccinated. The idea that we're sending unvaccinated kids into schools right now without any protections because adults aren't polling strongly enough on mandatory mask use is bananas.

Sure. That reduces virus levels, but it doesn't end the pandemic. It's still circulating everywhere in the world. Vaccines are still the best answer.

Your logic is strange here. The people will accept masks and tracing, but not a vaccine? pshaw.

Pay everyone $2000 to get a vaccination. How fast do you think they'd line up? Also, don't say that can't be done because we've already released 2 or 3 $1200 checks for stimulus.

[LordMortis]

Pay everyone $2000 to get a vaccination. How fast do you think they'd line up? Also, don't say that can't be done because we've already released 2 or 3 $1200 checks for stimulus.

Or about 2 checks totalling around $400 to some people... Just sayin'. (Though that same some people were eagerly trying to get in line for vaccination as early February...)

[Smoove_B]

Sure. That reduces virus levels, but it doesn't end the pandemic. It's still circulating everywhere in the world. Vaccines are still the best answer.

We're doing multiple things at the same time. We're trying to lower circulating virus levels *and* make sure that cluster outbreaks don't continue to cause local/regional/national/global disruptions. Without question vaccines are part of it. But the federal government went all-in on them and communicated that everything else wasn't necessary any more. They gambled and now we're in trouble.

Your logic is strange here. The people will accept masks and tracing, but not a vaccine? pshaw. Pay everyone $2000 to get a vaccination. How fast do you think they'd line up? Also, don't say that can't be done because we've already released 2 or 3 $1200 checks for stimulus.

We should absolutely do this. We should also be paying people to stay home when they have COVID-19 or they're exposed. We should also be making sure people aren't fired if they take a day off work to get vaccinated or need to take a day or two after getting vaccinated to recover.

Meanwhile your TX governor signed off on a budget that strictly prohibits public health money to be used for contact tracing COVID-19 cases staring 9/1. He's legitimately evil.

[Little Raven]

What I was saying was that the idea that the Supreme Court disagreeing with the moratorium but not actually striking it down (which is still an open question) and Congress failing to act doesn't 'badly undercut' any notion that we are governed by consent.

Uh, ok, but I don't think anyone was making that argument.

If you recall, this started by Smoove lamenting that you can't run pandemic response as a popularity contest. (understandable) I then pointed out that the whole "consent of the governed" thing means anything you do has to be at least somewhat popular. You don't have to have universal approval all the time, but you do need enough support to get Congress on board with whatever measures you want to employ. And our Congress isn't doing anything, which at least to me indicates that there's not a whole lot of consent there. If people actually wanted vaccine mandates/paid time off/universal masking/travel bans/whatever other policy public health officials think would help, there's nothing stopping Congress from implementing them.

[Smoove_B]

Most support universal masking:

The poll, which was conducted August 13-16 among 1,041 respondents, found 64% of respondents support their state or local government mandating masks in all public places, including 88% of Democrats and only 40% of Republicans.

Not sure about paying people to stay home (likely less popular) and making sure people can take time off, also perhaps getting paid time off as it relates to vaccinating.

[El Guapo]

But this ties back to our discussions of the deep deep flaws in our political institutions, which distort the popular will so much that the Fox News base gets wildly disproportionate input.

[malchior]

What I was saying was that the idea that the Supreme Court disagreeing with the moratorium but not actually striking it down (which is still an open question) and Congress failing to act doesn't 'badly undercut' any notion that we are governed by consent.

Uh, ok, but I don't think anyone was making that argument.

My reading comprehension ability must be plummeting because IMO you just did it out *again*. I'll highlight the exact thing I'm speaking to.

If you recall, this started by Smoove lamenting that you can't run pandemic response as a popularity contest. (understandable) I then pointed out that the whole "consent of the governed" thing means anything you do has to be at least somewhat popular. You don't have to have universal approval all the time, but you do need enough support to get Congress on board with whatever measures you want to employ. And our Congress isn't doing anything, which at least to me indicates that there's not a whole lot of consent there.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I don't think this is anything close to how our model of governance works or even aspires to.

If people actually wanted vaccine mandates/paid time off/universal masking/travel bans/whatever other policy public health officials think would help, there's nothing stopping Congress from implementing them.

Right. With the proviso that they don't need to implement anything in many cases because the powers or laws already exist. And since they exist there is implied consent. If they wish to withdraw it, then they can. Or we can find out there is a limit via the legal system.

[Little Raven]

My reading comprehension ability must be plummeting because IMO you just did it out *again*. I'll highlight the exact thing I'm speaking to.

But I'm not arguing that we're not governed by consent. I'm arguing that we are. And that's the problem, at least when it comes to pandemic management. Many the things that Smoove wants to us to do are not very popular, and many are deeply unpopular.

Right. With the proviso that they don't need to implement anything in many cases because the powers or laws already exist.

I look forward to "The Divine Right of the CDC" being tested in Court.

[Little Raven]

But this ties back to our discussions of the deep deep flaws in our political institutions, which distort the popular will so much that the Fox News base gets wildly disproportionate input.

Sure, but unless we're going the Drazzil route, it's the only game in town.

Well, at least until the Republicans get enough state legislatures to start bypassing Congress with Constitutional Amendments.

[Smoove_B]

Many the things that Smoove wants to us to do are not very popular, and many are deeply unpopular.

I have a multitude of options I'm willing to provide - I'm not unreasonable. And as a guy that has walked into a strip club with a handful of stem thermometers and a clipboard, I'm well aware that I'm hardly every the most popular person in the room.

Someone I follow (and respect) has suggested pushing the start of the school year 6 weeks to allow the EUA for kids to be offered and then (ideally) utilized.

I think that ship has unfortunately sailed already, but there's no reason it couldn't have happened. Instead there are thousands (10s of thousands? millions?) of parents nationwide that are rightfully concerned that they're sending their unvaccinated child into a high-risk environment - and that's for schools that are following masking recommendations! We have so many options and time and time again we take the easiest one that offers the least resistance.

[Alefroth]

And as a guy that has walked into a strip club with a handful of stem thermometers and a clipboard, I'm well aware that I'm hardly every the most popular person in the room.

What exactly are you taking the temperature of?

[Smoove_B]

The equipment!

Spoiler:

Some of the strip clubs have limited menus - they're serving sandwiches or bar pizza. I also need to check all the beer coolers, which makes no sense as I have no authority over said beer. I always tell them I'm checking temps because they could be using the beer coolers to hold milk or mixers that require refrigeration. But yeah, definite record scratch moment when I walk in.

[malchior]

My reading comprehension ability must be plummeting because IMO you just did it out *again*. I'll highlight the exact thing I'm speaking to.

But I'm not arguing that we're not governed by consent. I'm arguing that we are. And that's the problem, at least when it comes to pandemic management.

I know what you're arguing. I am saying I think you're completely wrong about what that means or how it works.

Many the things that Smoove wants to us to do are not very popular, and many are deeply unpopular.

First that isn't completely accurate and as Smoove_B mentioned...that's part of that job? It's also irrelevant. Paying taxes isn't popular either but we live in a civilization.

Right. With the proviso that they don't need to implement anything in many cases because the powers or laws already exist.

I look forward to "The Divine Right of the CDC" being tested in Court.

Wut?

[Little Raven]

We have so many options and time and time again we take the easiest one that offers the least resistance.

The fundamental problem with Democracy is that it is structurally incapable of being forward thinking. It can only deal with real and immediate crisis, and while COVID most definitely is that, most of the potential remedies produce crisis in and of themselves, and so must be balanced accordingly.

Authoritarianism can do better in the forward thinking department, but the problem there is that humans are absolutely terrible at predicting what the actual problem of the future are likely to be.

[malchior]

We have so many options and time and time again we take the easiest one that offers the least resistance.

The fundamental problem with Democracy is that it is structurally incapable of being forward thinking. It can only deal with real and immediate crisis, and while COVID most definitely is that, most of the potential remedies produce crisis in and of themselves, and so must be balanced accordingly.

Authoritarianism can do better in the forward thinking department, but the problem there is that humans are absolutely terrible at predicting what the actual problem of the future are likely to be.

Are you pranking us today?

[Alefroth]

The equipment!

Spoiler:

Some of the strip clubs have limited menus - they're serving sandwiches or bar pizza. I also need to check all the beer coolers, which makes no sense as I have no authority over said beer. I always tell them I'm checking temps because they could be using the beer coolers to hold milk or mixers that require refrigeration. But yeah, definite record scratch moment when I walk in.

Mmm... strip club food. Thanks to those like you we can consume it with confidence.