tesla motors

[coopasonic]

I've only charged my Bolt at home except for two occasions just to see what Level 3 charging was like. I've kept records of every charging session after the first 1000 miles because I'm an engineer and a bit unhinged. I tracked the amount of energy the car said it used, the amount that I delivered to it (I always charge to the same level), the miles traveled, the cost of electricity, and the cost of gas on the day I charged. I can then calculate my driving efficiency, the charging efficiency, and my fuel savings. Since I replaced a car that got 40 mpg, that is what I'm comparing against. If you replaced something that had worse mileage, the savings would be bigger.

So, over 43,835 miles, I've spent $1,249.37 on electricity. For that 40mpg ICE vehicle, it would have cost $2,230.65 for a savings of $981.26. My lifetime driving has been 4.65 miles/kWh. When you factor in the losses from charging, it drops it to 4.30 miles/kWh.

I was going to say something about how the numbers would be very different for me as my driving is a bit less efficient than Stess. On the other hand I was also replacing a 328hp, 20-ish mpg vehicle that wanted premium.

The savings would have been huge, but as soon as I bought it gas prices tanked and then, about a year in, work took away free charging. I prefer not to do the math now.

Oh and the Tesla eats tires even faster than the Infiniti did, but 3 years and not a nickel for maintenance. Don't tell Zaxxon though as he'll probably tell me there is something I should have done (cabin air filter). Oh I do need windshield washer fluid!

[stessier]

So while the fuel savings are not astronomical, you also need to factor in the low maintenance cost. And, most importantly, YOU GET TO DRIVE A FRICKING ELECTRIC CAR!

I've tracked that too!

• Somewhere just under 10k miles - a new tire because I hit a bolt ironically - $251
• 15,500 miles - Tire rotation - free
• 39,476 miles - Cabin air filter - $19.99
• 39,476 miles - Wiper blades - $47.98
• 40,576 miles - 4 new tires - $1,094.4

Grand total: $1,413.21

The tires I get are the OEM self sealing and are $220 each.

[malchior]

BTW if you are in the market for the Wall Connector Gen 3 they silently changed it from a 18' to a 24' cable again. Same price. I luckily got my 18' one shipped about 3 days before they changed it.

[Zaxxon]

BTW if you are in the market for the Wall Connector Gen 3 they silently changed it from a 18' to a 24' cable again. Same price. I luckily got my 18' one shipped about 3 days before they changed it.

Welcome to Tesla ownership. Cookies to the left, unannounced changes to the right.

[malchior]

BTW if you are in the market for the Wall Connector Gen 3 they silently changed it from a 18' to a 24' cable again. Same price. I luckily got my 18' one shipped about 3 days before they changed it.

Welcome to Tesla ownership. Cookies to the left, unannounced changes to the right.

I'm still not an owner (of anything beyond that wall connector). 60 days from order and counting. Right now it tells me I'll get it in another 62-82 days.

[Zaxxon]

BTW if you are in the market for the Wall Connector Gen 3 they silently changed it from a 18' to a 24' cable again. Same price. I luckily got my 18' one shipped about 3 days before they changed it.

Welcome to Tesla ownership. Cookies to the left, unannounced changes to the right.

I'm still not an owner (of anything beyond that wall connector). 60 days from order and counting. Right now it tells me I'll get it in another 62-82 days.

I would put strong odds on an opening by 9/30, but maybe this time is different. All models' estimates seem pretty crazy.

[malchior]

The tracking sheet I've seen has people with my color seeing completion dates well over 100 days even before the current slow downs. I don't need it so it isn't a big deal. As a major aside, Consultant brain sees a gap in their sales process though. It makes little to zero sense with these sort of delays. They do hard credit pulls at order entry that time out after 60 days. Very few cars except for Model Y Performance are being delivered under 60 days from order. They also make you update your trade-in every 30 days.

With all that, if I could ask someone who mattered...I'd ask why? Why a hard pull instead of a soft pull and hard pull when say a VIN is assigned. The trade-in sorta makes sense because a car might devaluate in the intervening period. Still most dealers do it close to sale date for that reason. It is like they are worried about order fulfillment but that seems hilarious with 3-9 month waiting lines. They'll sell every car produced. No other car sales organization does it this way and they have less reason to do it compared to peers.

I'll also say the SAs are completely and absolutely useless. I have credit locks on my accounts (especially relevant after I had a fraud unemployment claim made) and that aforementioned 60 day window is coming. I'm only aware of it due to reading a Tesla forum. I've been trying to find out if there is a way to hold off on the pull until close to my delivery date. Like every other dealer does it. I've called and left voicemails. I've emailed. I've texted. Zero responses. It is the most overwhelmed or worst run sales organization I've ever dealt with. Very strange for what amounts to a luxury purchase.

Edit: I'm pretty much at the point where I think I'll drive down to Princeton and just walk in the door and see if anyone will talk to me. I just want to know if I still exist.

[Zaxxon]

Consultant brain sees a gap in their sales process.

Understatement of the decade.

I've gone through the process three times and been involved in friends/relatives doing it for two others. They ranged from fine to not very good to 'had to be reminded to take our check.'

I said in 2018 that they'd have to improve their sales org significantly as volumes expanded, yet here we are. Maybe 2022 is the year?

[malchior]

They are cash flow positive because people like me tolerate their horrible customer service. I've seriously thought about why I should buy the car. I suspect they'll keep doing it until a serious competitor emerges.

Still it's mostly automated. Why not automate it in a way that makes sense? They don't even need to fix their broken SA network. They simply shouldn't do credit pulls until you can actually buy the car. I mean it isn't hard. It's like they are a social experiment in seeing how far they can push customers.

[Zaxxon]

They are cash flow positive because people like me tolerate their horrible customer service. I've seriously thought about why I should buy the car. I suspect they'll keep doing it until a serious competitor emerges.

Still it's mostly automated. Why not automate it in a way that makes sense? They don't even need to fix their broken SA network. They simply shouldn't do credit pulls until you can actually buy the car. I mean it isn't hard. It's like they are a social experiment in seeing how far they can push customers.

I don't understand the sales issues. In some areas (eg post-sales service), it's clear that they are trying for improved service via more automation, and most of the time (in my experience) it works well in that it's clearly more efficient for Tesla, and for most issues it brings a better experience for the customer.

But the sales side I don't understand. They can be efficient and still do a lot better than they're doing currently (for example by giving a more granular/up-to-date view of upcoming orders, by having an actually-staffed-adequately central call center for order questions, etc).

FWIW, I don't know if this trick still works, but in 2019-2020 when I was last in your shoes, I was able to call the local sales center and go through the phone tree for something like 'questions about an existing order,' which transferred me to Fremont and people who could actually help me. Bypassed the local SA folks (who, I agree, are generally clueless). I had some questions from the credit union I was using, and had to call Tesla twice this way. Both times I reached actual humans who were able to assist right away, outside of their normal scripted process.

[pr0ner]

[Jeff V]

Well, that's a disappointing comment. If I do manage to get a new job that requires ass-in-the-office, this was one I''d consider, even though it's be largely useless for anything else.

[Zaxxon]

Well, that's a disappointing comment. If I do manage to get a new job that requires ass-in-the-office, this was one I''d consider, even though it's be largely useless for anything else.

Not typical, despite what the Germans would have you believe.

[LawBeefaroni]

Well, that's a disappointing comment. If I do manage to get a new job that requires ass-in-the-office, this was one I''d consider, even though it's be largely useless for anything else.

Experts say Tesla has turned the corner on quality


After dis-assembling a Model 3 in 2018, Munro declared that the electric sedan had “flaws we would see on a Kia in the ’90s” — a pointed reference to the cheap quality of early Korean entries in the U.S. market.

After taking apart a Model Y this spring, Munro has changed his tune. “It’s a well-designed car,” he said in an interview. “It’s so much better than the Model 3 — no comparison in fit and finish. They are miles apart.”

An auto manufacturing veteran and leading expert in integrated product development, Munro says Tesla still lags in some areas. But it has made a quantum leap from Kia ‘90s standard to the 21st century


“Fit and finish right now is not the best — but is not the worst either,” he said. His engineering team will ultimately give the car a full grading. “My guess is it’ll will come out a 7-7 ½, something like that. Whereas a Bentley would be classified as a 9-9 1/2. So, you’re looking at something that’s now right in the middle.”

[Jeff V]

Would the car be considered to be in the same class as a Bentley? I'd be more interested in seeing apples to apples comparisons...cars in the same price range.

[malchior]

Would the car be considered to be in the same class as a Bentley? I'd be more interested in seeing apples to apples comparisons...cars in the same price range.

The Tesla S Plaid is in the range of a Bentley but that's a good point. That said Munro isn't doing a detailed study of cars coming off the line at the current pace. I wonder if he'd still grade these at a 7 to 7.5. Production has been running flat out and a lot of people are reporting defects. However, I've seen accounts where customers are accepting them because passing means you get back in line and it could cost you months to only get a car in a similar state.

Speaking of which I mentioned I have been waiting awhile and didn't mind. Now I sort of mind. My less than 3 year old Dodge Charger is dead in my driveway right now. I suspect a sensor or computer failed. I got super lucky it failed how/where it did because the car won't do anything but idle right now. I lost power shortly after leaving my driveway and was able to limp it around the block and get it back home. I'm well inside the basic warranty even but it's my trade so it'd be nice not to be throwing codes if Tesla comes a knocking.

[Zaxxon]

That sucks.

I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about defects. It's absolutely a thing, and you may have a nightmare delivery. But like I said earlier, it's far from the norm. I've taken delivery of 3 Teslas, been there with friends for two more, and assisted with new owner orientation on dozens more over the years. Most cars in my experience are in good shape, with one or zero defects requiring follow-up to resolve. It's also a thing that people hear about quality issues and put the cars through far more of a microscope than most people at most 'ordinary' dealers do.

In a past life, my Leaf had a few bad panel gaps. My last Toyota had a ding on the bumper at pickup that the dealer had to buff out. Our Volvo had numerous uneven panel gaps. If you go in having decided to find defects, you'll find em.

[Jeff V]

My 2019 Nissan Rogue has been without working aircon since early July. We've been using the 2016 Versa a lot more just because of this. One of the reasons I've been a Nissan fanboy for years is because the service department has been consistently excellent. In this case, they narrowed down the problem to one of 2 $500 parts. The warranty expired probably the day before this problem occurred. I picked one, and it seems I picked the wrong one. Still doesn't work. Now I'm taking it tomorrow to a local chain that was 30% cheaper on an oil change/tire rotation. If they can fix it for less than the dealer, then they've earned my business from now on. But my allegiance to Nissan is now over...I'm more open than before to looking into other brands.

[Zaxxon]

My 2019 Nissan Rogue has been without working aircon since early July. We've been using the 2016 Versa a lot more just because of this. One of the reasons I've been a Nissan fanboy for years is because the service department has been consistently excellent. In this case, they narrowed down the problem to one of 2 $500 parts. The warranty expired probably the day before this problem occurred. I picked one, and it seems I picked the wrong one. Still doesn't work. Now I'm taking it tomorrow to a local chain that was 30% cheaper on an oil change/tire rotation. If they can fix it for less than the dealer, then they've earned my business from now on. But my allegiance to Nissan is now over...I'm more open than before to looking into other brands.

I know better than to suggest that you get an EV, but... get an EV.

[Jeff V]

I know better than to suggest that you get an EV, but... get an EV.

You know I'd love to, right? But it has to be practical. Where I live, there are no public charging stations. My next car would likely replace a 2016 Versa, which only has 55K on it, and is reasonably economical. The radio is in urgent need of replacement, though. My wife for no good reason wants to get a pickup truck. Unless we have a boat or RV trailer (both of which have been discussed) there is no practical reason to replace our 2019 Rogue with such a thing. And just to add a some more controversy to the discussion, a friend of hers (the one who was a boarder for 9 months) got divorced over a Tesla. If I get the job I'm currently pursuing, I'm not going to be happy with using the Versa for all of the driving I will be doing, but won't be able to replace it until other debts are paid off. It'd likely be several years yet before replacement becomes feasible, more so if the wife insists on goddamn pickup truck first.

[Zaxxon]

New Mexico has long banned Tesla sales direct in the state due to the dealer lobby. Folks have had to come to Denver to pick up. Multiple legislative attempts have been quashed.

Tesla this week opened a sales center on Tribal land.

Gotta say I like the approach.

[JCC]

One of my buddies just got a Model Y yesterday. It's a supremely nice car and he loves it and I was more than impressed by it. But, like pretty much everyone else who buys a new Model Y his has a body defect. His hatch has something loose rattling around in there. He feels he got off lucky. I just don't understand how a company gets away with selling a new car for over $50k and you are pretty much guaranteed to have to schedule an appointment to have something fixed. Tesla has insane appeal. I also find it beyond ridiculous that they don't support Car Play or Android Auto. I mean is there any other brand that DOESN'T support that? I know Tesla provides an adequate substitute, (and lots of other extremely cool features) but seriously that's a comically ridiculous omission.

I am not anti-Tesla by any means - I think they have done our planet a huge favor- scratch that - our planet doesn't care about it becoming uninhabitable. They have done HUMANITY a big favor by kicking the door open on EVs and making the path to them becoming mainstream a LOT closer than they would be otherwise.

One thing that amuses me is that Teslas are actually cheaper new than used. Used has a premium because you can get one today!

[LordMortis]

But, like pretty much everyone else who buys a new Model Y his has a body defect.

An automobile is likely the most complex thing you will ever buy. Defects are sadly to be expected. That's why it's good to go to lots and why a show room has a vested interest in getting those things fixed before you ever see it. So long as TESLA make it right instantly, I can see it as a cost of getting the car sight unseen. Otherwise they need find a way to have these things fixed for every customer as if they were a showroom taking delivery and build that QA expense into the cost of the car.

[malchior]

also find it beyond ridiculous that they don't support Car Play or Android Auto. I mean is there any other brand that DOESN'T support that? I know Tesla provides an adequate substitute, (and lots of other extremely cool features) but seriously that's a comically ridiculous omission.

It isn't an omission I suspect. I believe it is a choice they made. They sell Internet service for the car and want to encourage people to use their native UI. They especially want people using their native navigation software. They don't want to deal with people using Google or Apple Maps, etc. Especially where all this intersects with their vision of the whole FSD capability.

One thing that amuses me is that Teslas are actually cheaper new than used. Used has a premium because you can get one today!

This is the truth. I've never seen anything like this ordering process. I've contemplated cancelling my order several times because I find their attitude towards their customer to be ... less than ideal.

[JCC]

It isn't an omission I suspect. I believe it is a choice they made. They sell Internet service for the car and want to encourage people to use their native UI. They especially want people using their native navigation software. They don't want to deal with people using Google or Apple Maps, etc. Especially where all this intersects with their vision of the whole FSD capability.

Yes, I get this. But to me any product that denies their customer's preference is silly. I am sure if I ever own a Tesla (not bloody likely until their prices come down a lot more) I will get used to and possibly even prefer their interface. But, I think denying customers an option that is a staple in pretty much all other cars is a bit silly.

This is the truth. I've never seen anything like this ordering process. I've contemplated cancelling my order several times because I find their attitude towards their customer to be ... less than ideal.

Yes my buddy got very frustrated with his date being pushed out and pulled back in over and over. He paid in full for his car and magically, once he finalized his full payment, they suddenly brought his date in significantly. But, he absolutely loves it so it was all worth it to him. And, I am really not a debbie downer on Tesla - I was very impressed with it overall.

[Zaxxon]

Yes, I get this. But to me any product that denies their customer's preference is silly. I am sure if I ever own a Tesla (not bloody likely until their prices come down a lot more) I will get used to and possibly even prefer their interface. But, I think denying customers an option that is a staple in pretty much all other cars is a bit silly.

I like the Tesla interface more than AA (surprise!), but I do make sure to give every Tesla employee that I interact with shit about the fact that Tesla's voice commands don't support specifying the specific device you want to call (eg 'call Jane Doe - Mobile'). Such a simple thing for them to add (the car already properly decodes the command, it just doesn't know what to do with the last piece, and pops up a menu of available #s for that contact no matter what you specify), but they haven't done it yet.

I suspect part of the issue is that they don't want to split the user base away from their home-grown solution, and part is that for Autopilot they want (need?) you using the Tesla nav to control the trip.

[malchior]

I suspect part of the issue is that they don't want to split the user base away from their home-grown solution, and part is that for Autopilot they want (need?) you using the Tesla nav to control the trip.

It's a NEED. Just thinking out the alternative case but you'd have to get Google and Apple to support an API that is part of a system that controls how a car in the real world operates. Maybe the map isn't being used for 'driving' since it is machine vision based but there is no competent General Counsel in the universe who'd agree to that arrangement.

[Zaxxon]

I suspect part of the issue is that they don't want to split the user base away from their home-grown solution, and part is that for Autopilot they want (need?) you using the Tesla nav to control the trip.

It's a NEED. Just thinking out the alternative case but you'd have to get Google and Apple to support an API that is part of a system that controls how a car in the real world operates. Maybe the map isn't being used for 'driving' since it is machine vision based but there is no competent General Counsel in the universe who'd agree to that arrangement.

That system exists (eg Polestar), but that's using Android Automotive, not Android Auto.

[malchior]

That system exists (eg Polestar), but that's using Android Automotive, not Android Auto.

Right - but I'd consider that an equivalent 'stack' top to bottom. I more meant in the Tesla stack you get 95% of the features as Android Auto or Airplay. People like those interfaces but there is almost no incentive for Apple or Google or Tesla to partner up to make that work long term and co-develop it.

[Zaxxon]

That system exists (eg Polestar), but that's using Android Automotive, not Android Auto.

Right - but I'd consider that an equivalent 'stack' top to bottom. I more meant in the Tesla stack you get 95% of the features as Android Auto or Airplay. People like those interfaces but there is almost no incentive for Apple or Google or Tesla to partner up to make that work long term and co-develop it.

Yep, totally with you. Just saying it's possible. I don't think Tesla would ever do it (nor would Apple, for that matter). And more importantly, I don't think it's necessary. People largely want AA/CarPlay because most automotive interfaces are total, unmitigated disasters. Tesla's is really good (though, as I said earlier, not perfect).

[malchior]

That system exists (eg Polestar), but that's using Android Automotive, not Android Auto.

Right - but I'd consider that an equivalent 'stack' top to bottom. I more meant in the Tesla stack you get 95% of the features as Android Auto or Airplay. People like those interfaces but there is almost no incentive for Apple or Google or Tesla to partner up to make that work long term and co-develop it.

Yep, totally with you. Just saying it's possible. I don't think Tesla would ever do it (nor would Apple, for that matter).

Right that is why I was focusing on the business/legal relationships. Those companies don't play well together. California tech culture is adjacent to warfare.

[Zaxxon]

Side note: Skyforce Reloaded is super friggin-addictive. My daughter and I sat in the car for an hour after getting home...

[coopasonic]

Side note: Skyforce Reloaded is super friggin-addictive. My daughter and I sat in the car for an hour after getting home...

Do you keep controllers in your car?

[Zaxxon]

Side note: Skyforce Reloaded is super friggin-addictive. My daughter and I sat in the car for an hour after getting home...

Do you keep controllers in your car?

Haven't tried controllers yet. We used touch controls for this one.

[telcta]

Seeing your post, I forgot about the last update adding Skyforce Reloaded. So I went to the garage to check it out (with a Logitech controller). Almost 90 minutes later I had to pull myself away from the car, that game is a lot of fun.

It hasn't been a productive morning.

[Zaxxon]

Glad to help.

[LawBeefaroni]

Tangentially on topic:

Police have arrested two people following a months-long criminal investigation into a car crash that killed a bicyclist in June 2021.

Irma Arellano-Arroyo and Guadalupe Garcia-Davalos are behind bars, charged with several crimes relating to the crash that killed Boryana Straubel, the 38-year-old wife of Tesla co-founder JB Straubel.

Sad story, glad they got them.

[Zaxxon]

Sad story, glad they got them.

Concur.

Also tangentially related and speaking of Straubel, Redwood Materials is getting interesting.

[Exodor]

This seems suboptimal

[LordMortis]

That's the kinda fear I have in CAN based driving come to life and not just for BEVs (though most strongly for them). I sincerely hope that is isolated. As in one.