malchior wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:11 pm
But we did something. Parents are now on notice not to be completely negligent instead of just accidentally negligent. An important step forward.
malchior wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:11 pm
But we did something. Parents are now on notice not to be completely negligent instead of just accidentally negligent. An important step forward.
Hopefully schools learned some lessons here too.
The clear backpacks are ridiculous. NFL has done that theater. It's only good for companies that sell backpacks that cost $1.26 and are priced at $30. I had a bag that they wouldn't let in so I bought a clear bag and put my bag inside it. Magically safe.
You can hide a modern 9mm handgun in something the size of a wallet.
Can't you just hide it in a book?
If I make a grammar or spelling mistake, PM me. I will correct it. It’s better than you being an asshole!
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We are not Gods, but nature. No more than one of many dominate species that will inhabit this planet for a short period of time, on its ever so long journey through the universe.
Smoove_B wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:08 pm
Yeah, the clear backpacks thing is theater. The teacher in this case identified all kinds of red flags and took action, but nothing happened. If the only way to stop school shootings it to expect someone to see a gun inside a backpack? Everyone has lost their mind. There must be some other way to deal with this. Some larger measure that we could consider as a nation. Oh well, I guess we'll do nothing and see what happens....again.
Sure, I’ll get right on it and tell the school board that all they need to do is just change state and national gun laws. I’m sure that shouldn’t take them long to do.
Seriously, when parents are screaming and there’s little you can do, sometimes theater is all you have. Maybe instead of screaming at the school boards parents should scream at their representatives, but until enough Republican parents start to care about their kids more than they do about guns, nothing is going to happen. But right now the Republican solution is to arm teachers, so there’s that. The shooter’s parents are the perfect example of the problem we face, gun lovers who thought buying a 15 year old a handgun was a good idea. Until those people change their minds, nothing is going to happen. “
Until then, it’s just the price of freedom
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
At my wife's school if a student is making threats towards themselves or others, they are immediately removed from campus until they get a psychologist's clearance to come back. Period. And I'm talking K-5 graders here, not high schoolers. It really boggled her mind that they ever let him go back to class.
I just read that 17 guns have been found on students in our city/county schools (large urban system) since the beginning of the year. It’s a miracle that no one’s been killed yet.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
YellowKing wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:18 pm
At my wife's school if a student is making threats towards themselves or others, they are immediately removed from campus until they get a psychologist's clearance to come back. Period. And I'm talking K-5 graders here, not high schoolers.
And yet I feel that is a little overboard. Depending on the student*, I’d like to think a degree of ‘reading the moment’ would keep some parents from having to mount a stupid effort to ‘clear’ a theatrical moment of their child.
*obviously some students and some threats would warrant that response, but a large amount of them truly wouldn’t. I believe that teachers should be in a position to correctly make that call. They can err on the side of safety but ‘zero tolerance’ creates its own problems.
Grifman wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:58 am
I just read that 17 guns have been found on students in our city/county schools (large urban system) since the beginning of the year. It’s a miracle that no one’s been killed yet.
They find a decent amount here too, they aren't kids looking to shoot up a school. It's kids strapped for "protection". Of course a lot of our schools have metal detectors.
It'll be tough to get them into rural/suburban schools where the mass school shootings happen though. Bad optics or something.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
malchior wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:11 pm
But we did something. Parents are now on notice not to be completely negligent instead of just accidentally negligent. An important step forward.
I'm a "gun guy" and I just don't get things like that. In fact I hate things like that, even outside of the context of Oxford.
It's a literal, bonifide gun cult.
(Of no consequence, but why is it "their school"? He's a Kentucky rep.)
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Grifman wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:58 am
I just read that 17 guns have been found on students in our city/county schools (large urban system) since the beginning of the year. It’s a miracle that no one’s been killed yet.
They find a decent amount here too, they aren't kids looking to shoot up a school. It's kids strapped for "protection".
If you terrify people, and then remove their trust in your ability to protect them, they will go to extreme measures to protect themselves. This is a symptom of the violence and fear our kids are subjected to, and not an example of it.
I wonder about the relative positions on gun control held by kids and young adults who have grown up in the age active shooter drills.
AJ Delgado calling someone else a moron is rich but put that aside. The statement gives you an idea about how the failure to detect this early enough might have happened.
I feel so bad for any of the school staff. Obviously they had no idea how dangerous this kid really was. If the parents had just an ounce of being decent people they could have stopped this from happening.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
In our 3-kid, 3 school experience to date, guidance counselors are a far FAR cry from child psychologists, which is what we really need in schools IMO.
I suspect many actually do more harm than good because they don’t have the training that psychologists have.
Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:21 pm
In our 3-kid, 3 school experience to date, guidance counselors are a far FAR cry from child psychologists, which is what we really need in schools IMO.
I suspect many actually do more harm than good because they don’t have the training that psychologists have.
Aren't they there for academic guidance? Using them as mental health professionals seems wrong.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
FWIW the word they use is counselors. AJ is the one calling them guidance counselors. My take is that's a general enough title that it could mean a few things.
Edit: There is a 3rd party (tbd at the moment I believe) that will be conducting an independent investigation. Hopefully there will be lessons learned that are usable.
Last edited by malchior on Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:21 pm
In our 3-kid, 3 school experience to date, guidance counselors are a far FAR cry from child psychologists, which is what we really need in schools IMO.
I suspect many actually do more harm than good because they don’t have the training that psychologists have.
Aren't they there for academic guidance? Using them as mental health professionals seems wrong.
It’s totally wrong IMO, but at least in a state where the state govt writ large seems to have it out for public education, school psychologists are spendy for already absurdly tiny district budgets.
Orlando Sentinel - a mess of an article as it is organized poorly and repetitively. However, it has some good detail on what happened so I've cut it up a little to get at the essence. It appears it was some guidance counselor shop but it isn't clear what the qualifications of the personnel involved were.
A third party will investigate events at Oxford High School that occurred before a school shooting that left four students dead and six other students and a teacher wounded, the Michigan district’s superintendent said.
Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne said in a statement that he called for the outside investigation because parents have asked questions about “the school’s version of events leading up to the shooting.” He also elaborated on interactions with the student leading up to the shooting.
“It’s critically important to the victims, our staff and our entire community that a full and transparent accounting be made,” Throne said.
...
The 9mm semi-automatic pistol used in the shooting was bought at a local gun shop on Black Friday by James Crumbley as an early Christmas present for his son, authorities said.
School officials became concerned about the younger Crumbley on Monday, a day before the shooting, when a teacher saw him searching for ammunition on his phone, McDonald told reporters.
On Tuesday, a teacher found a note on Ethan’s desk and took a photo. It was a drawing of a gun pointing at the words, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me,” McDonald said.
There also was a drawing of a bullet, she said, with words above it: “Blood everywhere.” Between the gun and the bullet was a person who appeared to have been shot twice and is bleeding, she said. “My life is useless” and “The world is dead” also were written.
Ethan Crumbley and both his parents met with school officials at 10 a.m. Tuesday. His parents left, and Ethan went back to his classes with his backpack, where investigators believe he stashed the gun. Authorities were not notified, something that county Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he wishes would have been done.
By 1 p.m. Tuesday, the school erupted in gunshots, chaos and bloodshed.
...
In a video message to the community Thursday night, Throne acknowledged the meeting of Crumbley, the parents and school officials. Throne offered no details but said that “no discipline was warranted.”
In his statement Saturday, Throne elaborated on the events of Tuesday morning, saying the student was taken to the guidance counselor’s office where he claimed the drawing was part of a video game he was designing and that he planned to pursue video game design as a career. He worked on homework while waiting for his parents as counselors watched him.
“At no time did counselors believe the student might harm others based on his behavior, responses and demeanor, which appeared calm,” Throne said.
“While both of his parents were present, counselors asked specific probing questions regarding the potential for self-harm or harm to others,” Throne said, adding counseling was recommended for him, and his parents were notified that they had 48 hours to seek it. “When the parents were asked to take their son home for the day, they flatly refused and left without their son, apparently to return to work.”
He said that the student had no prior disciplinary infractions so he was allowed to return to the classroom instead of being “sent home to an empty house.”
I'm seeing more and more conservative voices pushing the blame onto the school instead of the parents. They can't attack the parents without compromising their support for gun rights, I'm assuming.
But it all comes down to this: the parents bought their child a goddamn hand gun and then just gave it to him without requiring its use only when supervised and locking it up.
We need to send a warning that this shit has to stop.
Last edited by hepcat on Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We've seen literally dozens of school shootings over the last decade where the shooter was able to gain access to a gun that was insufficiently secured or not secured at all, but as far as I know, the Crumbley's may be the first case where the gun was specifically purchased as a gift for the child.
What a magnificently terrible idea. I'm a pretty pro 2nd Amendment kind of guy. I've taken my children shooting on multiple occasions. I wasn't concerned when they were both gifted a .22 rifle by my parents. (But while they live with me, gun goes in my safe.) But I can't imagine looking at any 15 year old and thinking..."You know what this kid really needs? A handgun."
No wonder they're facing charges. That's just beyond dumb.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
hepcat wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:51 pm
I'm seeing more and more conservative voices pushing the blame onto the school instead of the parents. They can't attack the parents without compromising their support for gun rights, I'm assuming.
But it all comes down to this: the parents bought their child a goddamn hand gun and then just gave it to him without requiring its use only when supervised and locking it up.
We need to send a warning that this shit has to stop.
That and they were told of his issues and didn't think to mention it to school staff. And they refused to take him home for the day, leaving him at the school.
The school isn't perfect but if the parents had any inkling of responsibility, this very could have been averted.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Little Raven wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:51 pm
We've seen literally dozens of school shootings over the last decade where the shooter was able to gain access to a gun that was insufficiently secured or not secured at all, but as far as I know, the Crumbley's may be the first case where the gun was specifically purchased as a gift for the child.
What a magnificently terrible idea. I'm a pretty pro 2nd Amendment kind of guy. I've taken my children shooting on multiple occasions. I wasn't concerned when they were both gifted a .22 rifle by my parents. (But while they live with me, gun goes in my safe.) But I can't imagine looking at any 15 year old and thinking..."You know what this kid really needs? A handgun."
No wonder they're facing charges. That's just beyond dumb.
It's a straw purchase straight up. They lied on the 4473 which is lying to the ATF. He's also not old enough to own a handgun. There's a lot of charges headed their way in addition to manslaughter.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
“While both of his parents were present, counselors asked specific probing questions regarding the potential for self-harm or harm to others,”
Again, not psychologists. The probing questions were probably along the same lines as the usual self-harm questions: Do you want to hurt people? Do you wish other students were dead? Do you have violent thoughts? Very few people who are considering doing so are going to answer 'probing questions' honestly. A psychologist, on the other hand, knows how to ask completely unrelated questions that serve to shine light under the underlying mental state without sending up "Now is when I need to lie" messages.
The kid should not have been allowed to be present at the school until he'd been cleared by a professional psychologist and law enforcement. And all that aside, not notifying the principal or checking his bag was just... wow. I can't imagine that the counselor will keep their job (the school will fire them for liability purposes if nothing else, and possibly principal, too.) And I can't imagine any school now won't be checking their policies checked to make sure that any concern of student violence is required to be reported to the principal.
hepcat wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:51 pm
I'm seeing more and more conservative voices pushing the blame onto the school instead of the parents. They can't attack the parents without compromising their support for gun rights, I'm assuming.
But it all comes down to this: the parents bought their child a goddamn hand gun and then just gave it to him without requiring its use only when supervised and locking it up.
We need to send a warning that this shit has to stop.
That and they were told of his issues and didn't think to mention it to school staff. And they refused to take him home for the day, leaving him at the school.
The school isn't perfect but if the parents had any inkling of responsibility, this very could have been averted.
Yeah:
And they refused to take him home for the day, leaving him at the school.
They were called into a meeting with school officials about potential violence, and didn't mention AT ALL that he had access to a gun and ammo, and left him there.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
What part of Knowing Who’s Been Naughty isn’t enough early warning? If you can’t be defended by a Gang of Elves and the Christmas Spirit, you’ve probably been a Bad Santa who pissed off a lot of little children.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
The best part of this ill-advised campaign is that they're letting everyone know that Santa is coming to your house packing heat. So if you hear someone creeping around your house late at night, you better just start shooting.
Zarathud wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:03 pm
What part of Knowing Who’s Been Naughty isn’t enough early warning?
That's the problem. He knows if you've been bad or good. He knows the ratio of naughty to nice, and and it's not what we thought it was as kids. If I had that kind of insight into humanity, I'd move to a compound at the north pole and arm up, too.
Smoove_B wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:09 pm
The best part of this ill-advised campaign is that they're letting everyone know that Santa is coming to your house packing heat. So if you hear someone creeping around your house late at night, you better just start shooting.
--------------------------------------------
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I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
