The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

The UK is slowly coming around to recognizing what's happening:
People in England are being asked to work from home again if possible and face masks will be compulsory in most public places, as part of new rules to limit the spread of Omicron.

Covid passes will also be needed to get into nightclubs and large venues from next week.

Boris Johnson announced the government was moving to its back-up plan of extra Covid rules at a news conference.

"It's not a lockdown, it's Plan B," the prime minister said.

He said moving to the tougher measures was the "proportionate and responsible" thing to do.

Mr Johnson said more is still being learned about new variant Omicron and the picture might get better, but that it "could lead to a big rise in hospitalisations and therefore sadly in deaths".

He said the new variant was "growing much faster" than Delta and early analysis suggested cases could be doubling every 2.5 to three days.
But here in the U.S. where things are demonstrably worse (not with Omicron, but overall cases/hospitalizations/deaths)? Nothing at all is changing. We have zero ability to look at (1) what has already happened here and (2) what is happening elsewhere and have an honest assessment about what needs to be done *now*.

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

It's kind of pathetic that the U.K. has Boris Johnson as their PM, and also did Brexit, and yet I'm somehow jealous of how their political system works.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by stessier »

With the federal judge in Georgia putting the executive orders on hold for both federal contractors and the OSHA rules, our company sent out an email today saying they are no longer required to comply with them and so they are halting all activity around these rules. I need to look for a new job.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

Ugh. It's like the old motto: 'do the right thing, only when specifically required by law.'
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Two of our state GOP legislators penned an op ed regarding COVID-19 and vaccination, focused on the idea of passports.

The short? We're all going to get it, so just let it happen and hope your vaccine works.

Then they downplay COVID-19 in children, ignore long COVID and kids under 5 that aren't able to be vaccinated, and then completely disregard that we are actively encouraging spread right now and would continue to do so under their plan.

"It's no big deal" and comparing COVID-19 risk to diet and cancer is the topper.

With the fury of a thousand suns, my hatred for these folks is all-consuming.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

So just gamble we don't get a variant out of this mix that kills millions instead of just a million. Nice.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zarathud »

It’s God’s will to strike down the faithless and faithful alike.

These stupid people are the reason plastic bags come with a warning of suffocation risk.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Meanwhile in NY:

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1469322601759657987
BREAKING: New York Governor Kathy Hochul announces mask mandate for all indoor public places, except where proof of vaccination is required
It's better than nothing, but knowing that people that are vaccinated can still spread the virus, there shouldn't be an out. It's also much easier to remember and you don't need to message it around whatever a business is or isn't enforcing.

Almost two years and we still can't message this right.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Carpet_pissr »

How easily (or not) do vaccinated ppl spread the virus? Especially after 3rd shot.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:18 pm How easily (or not) do vaccinated ppl spread the virus? Especially after 3rd shot.
Unknown. So we should be using the long established precautionary principle of public health and wait for more information.

Or do minimal NPI prevention and act surprised as cases surge and hospitals are overwhelmed...again.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:10 pm Meanwhile in NY:

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1469322601759657987
BREAKING: New York Governor Kathy Hochul announces mask mandate for all indoor public places, except where proof of vaccination is required
It's better than nothing, but knowing that people that are vaccinated can still spread the virus, there shouldn't be an out. It's also much easier to remember and you don't need to message it around whatever a business is or isn't enforcing.

Almost two years and we still can't message this right.
My guess is that since a mask mandate falls apart in restaurants and bars, ensuring that everyone is at least vaccinated helps establishments mitigate the fact that people won't be wearing masks 90% of the time they're there.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Blackhawk »

The school announced that, gosh - the case count among students was so high that they were required by the state to implement a mask policy again. They made it very clear that they really didn't wanna, but that state board was just so darned mean. But since the state was slightly vague in what it meant, they're only requiring them for the elementary school - which is part of the same building complex as the junior high and high schools, and only for 12 days until winter break. But they sure do encourage students to wear masks!

Oh, and there are so many sick teachers that they had to cancel the after-school activities. For the elementary school. There is basketball game at the school tonight, two next week, and a concert on Sunday, all of which are indoors, and all of which Caiden is required to attend.

And they still haven't taken any other measures - such as ventilation - that could help. Thank god Caiden just had it and is boosted. If we can just keep from them negligently killing off half of the student body and their families for another six months, I'll be done with them for good.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:18 pm How easily (or not) do vaccinated ppl spread the virus? Especially after 3rd shot.
There's been some not-yet peer reviewed studies (although just on 2 shots) on Alpha and Delta that showed a reduction compared to the unvaccinated (of around 50-70% less), but those numbers wane significantly after three months.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21264959v1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21264260v2

I would guess it starts off even lower with Omicron. :?
Last edited by Defiant on Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

I have two end of the year lunches. Fortunately, one of them is tented, outdoors, with outdoor heating. Not good for the environment but better for reduced exposure while eating. I made it clear for both lunches that I will not drink and linger, which I can only assume is a huge contributor to spread and to becoming a carrier.

These two lunches will be the most reckless thing I've done in two years. Literally, everyone seems to be over the idea of COVID, that it can't run their lives. Is it any wonder my state moves in to it's third month of being among the worst in the nation.

I also have a dentist appointment on the 13th. Not real excited about going there either. Not sure which is worse, prolonged exposure at the dentist or a couple of quick in and out "Thank-you-for-the-lunch. I-appreciate-that-you-appreciate-the-work-I've-done-enjoy-getting-your-drink-on-now-without-me-goodbye-now."

But then we're all vaccinated, so fuck'em, amiright?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kurth »

I thought this bit from the daily dispatch from the NYT was worth reading. I won't do it justice to paraphrase, so I'm just gonna block quote it:
Red and blue
As is often the case in our politically polarized era, the situation differs in red and blue America.

In Republican-leaning communities, the biggest Covid problem remains a widespread refusal to take the pandemic seriously. About 40 percent of Republican adults have not received a vaccine shot, according to the most recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll. As a result, the Covid death rate is far higher in heavily Republican counties than in Democratic ones.

Red America’s Covid denialism doesn’t seem to be abating, either. Fox News continues to spread disinformation, as Margaret Sullivan of The Washington Post has noted. Many Republican politicians spend more time complaining about mask and vaccine mandates than trying to persuade conservatives to get a potentially lifesaving shot.

Blue America, by contrast, has taken Covid seriously. Fewer than 10 percent of Democratic voters have not received a vaccine shot. Political liberals also tend to be comfortable wearing masks to reduce the spread of the Covid virus.

Yet many Democrats, both voters and politicians, have been almost blasé about the costs of Covid precautions — the isolation, unhappiness, health damage, lost learning, inflation, public-transit disruptions and more. Democrats have sometimes focused on minimizing the spread of Covid, regardless of the downsides: Closing schools, for example, almost certainly harms children more than it protects them, given the minuscule rate of severe childhood Covid, even lower than that of severe childhood flu.

Maximizing health
There are few easy solutions here because trade-offs are unavoidable.

Although Covid presents relatively few risks to children and vaccinated adults under 50, it presents more to older people and some with specific immunodeficiencies. The current Covid surge has led to a modest rise in hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated and a much sharper rise among the unvaccinated. This surge justifies an increase in masking, testing and some other measures.

But it’s worth remembering that the point of those measures is to maximize people’s health and well-being. And maximizing health and well-being is not the same thing as minimizing Covid.

If that sounds strange, remember that society would cease to function if it tried to minimize every medical risk. Schools and offices don’t close each winter because of the flu. Families travel in cars even though crashes harm vastly more children than Covid does. People jog, play sports and ride bicycles even though thousands end up in emergency rooms.

The economic and social costs of our Covid precautions are real. In some cases, those precautions are clearly worth it — and in other cases they’re not. Figuring out how to control the virus while addressing the other Covid-induced crises is one of the great challenges of the pandemic’s next phase.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Not surprisingly, I take exception to the characterization that we aren't considering the costs of shutdowns, disruptions and school closures. :D

Again, the news media (and Americans) portrays things as immediate negative/positive - what happens if we do [X] right now?

No one is talking about the number of kids without parents right now as a result of our current strategy.
The study, which was published Thursday in the journal Pediatrics, estimated the number of losses from April 1, 2020, through the end of June 2021 at 140,000. And that number has risen in the past three months: Hillis estimates it is around 175,000 today.

"This number will continue to grow as long as our pandemic deaths increase," Hillis says.
Instead, it's about how little Billy is having a difficult time in Social Studies because he has to wear a mask. To be clear, I'm not minimizing the short term impacts, but considering we're still learning the long term effects of COVID, I'm not going to trade short term benefits that increase risk of some longer term risks - including death and disability.

I think people are numb and back to their tiny circle of existence again, not thinking about bigger picture issues - the number of people that still aren't vaccinated. How this is disproportionately impacting marginalized people. I'm still blow away that prior to 2020 seeing a doctor or medical professional in a mask was ok. But now if you see someone in a mask they're a liberal snowflake, afraid of a virus.

It's maddening.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Max Peck »

Apparently Missouri is being offered up as a control case, to see what happens if you do absolutely nothing to control the spread of COVID-19.

Stripped of power, Missouri health depts abandon COVID health measures
As COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations rise sharply in Missouri, local health departments are abandoning efforts to stop the spread of the pandemic disease, saying their hands have been tied by the state's attorney general and a recent court ruling.

One local agency, the Laclede County Health Department, northeast of Springfield, announced that it has ceased all COVID-19-related work, including case investigations, contact tracing, quarantine orders, and public announcements of current cases and deaths.

"While this is a huge concern for our agency, we have no other options but to follow the orders of the Missouri Attorney General at this time," the department wrote in a Facebook post on December 9.

Laclede county, which has around 35,000 residents, is averaging 17 new cases per day, a 71 percent increase over two weeks, and test positivity sits at around 9 percent. Hospitalizations have risen 48 percent in the last two weeks. Only 35 percent of the county is fully vaccinated.

Overall, Missouri is currently seeing a surge in COVID-19 cases. The state is averaging over 2,700 new COVID-19 cases per day, a 68 percent increase over the past two weeks. Daily hospitalizations are averaging over 1,700, a 45 percent increase over the past two weeks. Approximately 52 percent of the state is fully vaccinated, well below national coverage, and around a dozen of the state's 114 counties have vaccination percentages in the 20s.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

I am confident other GOP controlled states are pushing for exactly the same thing right now. I hadn't seen this yet so thanks for sharing. Absolutely unreal.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

Zarathud wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:06 pm It’s God’s will to strike down the faithless and faithful alike.

These stupid people are the reason plastic bags come with a warning of suffocation risk.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

LordMortis wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:36 pm
I also have a dentist appointment on the 13th. Not real excited about going there either.
Me too, on the 10th. It will be my first cleaning in over two years, and I'm tempted to cancel it...but my teeth are starting to hurt, so I don't think letting it go for another six months is a good idea. Wife has kept going every six months throughout the pandemic, so if I were going to be exposed there it probably would have already happened by proxy.

If I lived in MI I'd be sealing my doors and windows with duct tape, but my family there are also going about their lives as if covid is an afterthought. The situation's not much better in MA. Commerce is bustling and masks are rare. Transmission isn't as bad here as you've got it, but it's bad enough and getting worse.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Kraken wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:38 pm If I lived in MI I'd be sealing my doors and windows with duct tape, but my family there are also going about their lives as if covid is an afterthought. The situation's not much better in MA. Commerce is bustling and masks are rare. Transmission isn't as bad here as you've got it, but it's bad enough and getting worse.

I don't get out much but I was pleasantly surprised that most patrons were wearing masks at Costco on Sunday. More than were wearing on my last foray. Maybe 70%... Hmm.. 70% funny number, that. I dunno about other stores. I've started bulk buying again so my grocery shopping is infrequent again.


Masking and vaccing or not, restaurants get packed. Sporting venues get filled. People are doing what they want, when they want and now that what they want, when they want is indoors, every occasion is a pre cursor to things getting worse.

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0, ... --,00.html
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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A coworker went Christmas shopping yesterday. He said he went to Cabela's and his wife (who wears her mask religiously) was the only one masked in the store. They then went to REI and my coworker, who wasn't wearing one, was the only one without a mask. I was amused.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Update on PA's mask mandate for schools:

https://twitter.com/ChuckWendig/status/ ... 6969604096
*COVID hangs its own MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner*
Absolute insanity.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

And going back to an earlier point about how this is all affecting kids. Now, with science:

https://twitter.com/tylerblack32/status ... 9749740546
Thread: how to really improve kids mental health during the pandemic.

Short version tip: stop the spread and impact of this virus.

Short version scolding: "ending covid policies" will NOT improve kids' mental health
From inside the Tweet:
Vaccination. Ventilation. Outdoor spaces. Sick policies. Closures when necessary. $$ support when closures are necessary. Access to rapid testing. Masking when in crowds/smaller spaces. Keeping symptoms at home.This protects kids' mental health.
Data is out of Canada where they (checks notes) apparently ask kids how they're doing.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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I am spreading this far and wide. I don't care if it offends people any more.

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm impressed, Colorado

https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/sta ... 8020181000
This is great! Colorado is following in footsteps of UK/Europe

Anyone can order a box of 5 rapid tests for FREE from CO, EVERY WEEK!

(This, despite condescending views by our White House on the feasibility of sending people free tests in a pandemic)
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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I assume that *anyone* means anyone in Colorado, right?

But yeah, glad to see that being done. I also found out that rapid tests are available on Amazon for $18, which is great (the CVS ones that we've been buying so far are $25 and often out of stock).
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Ordered.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Just remember, they're pretty good at identifying symptomatic cases, but if you're asymptomatic I think the last thing I read suggested 30-50% effective.

Plus, if you are symptomatic and you take one and it's negative, I wouldn't use that as a hall pass to socialize. The current recommendation I keep seeing is that symptomatic vaccinated people should not be attending holiday gatherings, regardless of what the quick-test reports. Apparently they need to tweak them as they were originally designed around the OG strain of SARS-CoV-2 and haven't been adequately scienced to adjust for detection of Delta and now Omicron.

I have a bunch on hand in case of emergency, but I am not going to use them to figure out what my holiday plans are. I'd seen someone suggest getting PCR tests for XMas and I honestly cannot imagine even trying to schedule something like that right before. I am confident it will be a madhouse.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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El Guapo wrote:I assume that *anyone* means anyone in Colorado, right?

But yeah, glad to see that being done. I also found out that rapid tests are available on Amazon for $18, which is great (the CVS ones that we've been buying so far are $25 and often out of stock).
When we went to GameDay on the UCLA campus in October, they had rapid test vending machines on campus. (note, since ucla plays home games in Pasadena, we don't always go to campus for those road trips).
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Kraken »

Do we know any more about the mandate on insurers to reimburse us for these tests? I'd like to lay in a case of them when I know I can be paid back.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

First, do no harm.

https://twitter.com/drkomanduri/status/ ... 0502280196
This is a really awful decision. And contrary to patient centered medicine, especially for immunocompromised patients. University Hospitals, Cleveland Clinic reverse orders; will allow unvaccinated caregivers to stay on the job
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Carpet_pissr »

The probabilities might have been difficult to crunch, but it likely just came down to comparing being sued by their disgruntled, unvaccinated employees, with being sued by any patient clients that contract CoVID from unvaccinated staff.

The latter is pretty obviously much more difficult to prove. Plus they could institute zero tolerance draconian masking policies for unvaccinated staff.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Same hospital in in 2016:
The Cleveland Clinic is requiring contractors and workers to get flu shots. Please note the following: For the 2016-2017 flu season, please note Cleveland Clinic is beginning to require flu vaccination for specified contractor groups.
But now? We can't do that because Joe Biden.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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It seems so strange that the rest of the world is resisting vaccine mandates as much if not more than the US.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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dbt1949 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:03 pm It seems so strange that the rest of the world is resisting vaccine mandates as much if not more than the US.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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dbt1949 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:03 pm It seems so strange that the rest of the world is resisting vaccine mandates as much if not more than the US.
It's the stupid news apparatus amplifying the minority. Most of the world lack the vaccine doses or infrastructure to deliver them. India is 35% vaccinated, and South Africa is only 25% vaccinated (2 doses). And indeed, that's were we found Delta and Omicron variants, respectively.

It's only in the Western countries like US, UK, Australia, and some parts of EU that have antivaxxers, who, as my late grandma used to say, "stomach full, brain empty" and needed something to amuse themselves. It's basically a first world problem that was exported to the world through pedagogy, usually by linking it to conservative values like ethnic pride or religion.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Kasey Chang wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:27 pm It's only in the Western countries like US, UK, Australia, and some parts of EU that have antivaxxers, who, as my late grandma used to say, "stomach full, brain empty" and needed something to amuse themselves.
That's a great saying - hadn't heard it before, but hats off ot your late grandma.

In other news, Philly now requiring vaccination proof to dine indoors.

NYC and Philly but no where in NJ. W in the actual F is the holdup here??

Also, no one should be eating indoors at restaurants and bars, but at least this is doing *something*.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Little Raven
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Little Raven »

Kasey Chang wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:27 pmIt's only in the Western countries like US, UK, Australia, and some parts of EU that have antivaxxers, who, as my late grandma used to say, "stomach full, brain empty" and needed something to amuse themselves.
Pakistan would like a word.

The sad truth is, anywhere you find vaccines, you find people with doubts about them. But frankly, in most of the world you're not going to get a vaccine unless you really, REALLY go looking for it, so anti-vaxxers only stand out as a group in Western countries.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
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Smoove_B
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

California, once again, leading the response.

https://twitter.com/youngsamantha/statu ... 6662155265
California announces statewide mask mandate beginning Dec 15
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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