Why isn't anyone here talking about virtual reality?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:51 pm

I came across some discussion of a recent study concerning the effects of VR on younger (under-13, but especially under-10) kids. It is just a single study, but it's potentially significant enough that I though it should be mentioned here.

tl;dw - Most VR systems suggest age 13+. Go with that. Younger kids don't have the neurological development to handle VR*, and doing so can potentially have a negative impact on their ability to develop coordination - possibly long term negative impacts.

*For those that haven't used VR, it gives your eyes and ears a different 'reality' from what your body is experiencing, such as suddenly accelerating without the physical g-forces occurring, or rotating without gravity rotating with you - like your eyes tell you that you're upside down while gravity tells your body you're right side up. For example, the first time I tried walking up a hill in VR I almost fell, as I automatically leaned forward to counter the slope - which wasn't really there - and almost fell over forwards. This is one cause of motion sickness in VR for adults, but their neurological development is established enough that it doesn't have long-term impacts. But when kids are using those sensory indicators to build their neural frameworks, distorting them can interfere.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:03 pm

Do you have a link to that study?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:55 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:03 pm Do you have a link to that study?

There's a link on the video to the article, which contains a link to the study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598- ... 66-8#Sec12

Chraolic · Post by **Chraolic** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:20 pm

To be honest I'm not sure I fully understand how VR headsets would even work for kids. Wouldn't they have a much lower IPD than an adult and just see everything askew to begin with? The headset in the thumbnail appears to stick out a good inch or two on either side of her head, but I suppose that might be photoshopped.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:35 pm

Thanks for the link. Just skimmed through the paper and I didn’t see anything stating the VR may impair proper development in children, just that by using VR they showed that changes postural development and movement happens at a different stage of development than previously thought. I haven’t watched the video yet to see if there are other studies indicating an issue, though.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:29 pm

Hitman 3 is getting VR support in January:

Link because YouTube are annoying gits.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:52 pm

I had a PSVR.
Ended up selling it because I just didnt use it.
Liked the concept, but it just didnt grab me.

Best Buy has a $50 gift card deal when you buy an Oculus. Add in about $60 I have in rewards and my cost would be around $200.
Is there anything the Oculus has or does that will pull me in more than the PSVR did?

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:14 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:52 pm I had a PSVR.
Ended up selling it because I just didnt use it.
Liked the concept, but it just didnt grab me.

Best Buy has a $50 gift card deal when you buy an Oculus. Add in about $60 I have in rewards and my cost would be around $200.
Is there anything the Oculus has or does that will pull me in more than the PSVR did?

PSVR was really low resolution and in my opinion does not give the kind of immersion that the Quest does. It was also tethered vs being completely wireless. I think there is a huge difference, but I don't know why you didn't like the PSVR. I know people that don't like VR in general because it messes with their equilibrium or gives them headaches, and I doubt that the Quest is going to help with those kind of things.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:21 pm

gbasden wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:14 pm
stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:52 pm I had a PSVR.
Ended up selling it because I just didnt use it.
Liked the concept, but it just didnt grab me.

Best Buy has a $50 gift card deal when you buy an Oculus. Add in about $60 I have in rewards and my cost would be around $200.
Is there anything the Oculus has or does that will pull me in more than the PSVR did?
PSVR was really low resolution and in my opinion does not give the kind of immersion that the Quest does. It was also tethered vs being completely wireless. I think there is a huge difference, but I don't know why you didn't like the PSVR. I know people that don't like VR in general because it messes with their equilibrium or gives them headaches, and I doubt that the Quest is going to help with those kind of things.

I think being tethered certainly was part of it.
I also didnt like the aspect of being only able to access PS games.
I think there was some workaround, but I was seeing alot of games from other places, such as Steam, that I wanted to try and couldnt.
I'm thinking that getting the Oculus removes that limitation, no?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:25 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:21 pm I think being tethered certainly was part of it.
I also didnt like the aspect of being only able to access PS games.
I think there was some workaround, but I was seeing alot of games from other places, such as Steam, that I wanted to try and couldnt.
I'm thinking that getting the Oculus removes that limitation, no?

An Oculus (we're talking Quest 2 here, by the way) can be played wired or wireless, and will play any VR game on the Oculus store, including most of those designed for earlier Oculus headsets, and will run any PC based VR title, including Steam, other services, or just standalone downloaded content. It will also give you access to YouTube VR, VR apps for watching video files/3d films, and lots of other things.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:29 pm

Do be aware that wireless play requires at least a halfway decent wifi connection, preferably 5Ghz to connect the headset, and a fast connection between the router and the PC (preferably wired.) You don't want lag in the round trip between your headset inputs and the PC output. Internet speed isn't important here for this, just your local wireless connection.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:29 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:25 pm
stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:21 pm I think being tethered certainly was part of it.
I also didnt like the aspect of being only able to access PS games.
I think there was some workaround, but I was seeing alot of games from other places, such as Steam, that I wanted to try and couldnt.
I'm thinking that getting the Oculus removes that limitation, no?
An Oculus (we're talking Quest 2 here, by the way) can be played wired or wireless, and will play any VR game on the Oculus store, including most of those designed for earlier Oculus headsets, and will run any PC based VR title, including Steam, other services, or just standalone downloaded content. It will also give you access to YouTube VR, VR apps for watching video files/3d films, and lots of other things.

Is the $100 difference for more storage worth it or necessary?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:40 pm

That depends entirely on how you use it. The base set right now should be 128 GB, with the larger one being 256 GB. The largest game I'm aware of (Medal of Honor, just released) takes up 41GB. Games or apps purchased from Oculus for the Quest are installed on the Quest, as a third party games from Sidequest (an official unofficial Oculus-approved side loader/indie store/content source.) Games played via a PC don't take up any space at all, as they're essentially just using the Quest 2 as an external monitor.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:44 pm

FWIW, I have the 256 GB version. I haven't come close to filling it, but I'm over the 128 GB mark. If I had the cheaper version, I'd be having to uninstall regularly.

Don't forget to put back a few bucks for a battery pack and replacement strap (the 'headband' that holds the HMD) at the very least, and eventually some grips with straps (which are cheap.)

Don't get the official Oculus cable, BTW. Unlike earlier versions it's not proprietary, and a decent USB-C cable works just as well for charging and/or data transfer. Just make sure you do some checking into data rates if you're getting one for tethered play.

Chraolic · Post by **Chraolic** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:46 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:29 pm Is the $100 difference for more storage worth it or necessary?

I doubt it. I have the 256 GB model and haven't filled up half of the storage, so I feel like 128 GB is probably about the right size. Back when I bought it the smaller model was 64 GB and that might have been a bit on the small side, but I don't think any of those are still around for sale.

DOS=HIGH · Post by **DOS=HIGH** » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:19 pm

Ok this looks amazing, a Bioshock VR game made as an HL:Alyx mod. The guy is playing it with an Oculus 2 using the Airlink. You can get access to it now if you join the Patreon but it will be released on Steam when it's officially done.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:35 pm

That sounds awesome.

Edit: Actually, not sure when that was posted. But there are already Bioshock mods on Workshop. Looks like I have 8 subscribed.

DOS=HIGH · Post by **DOS=HIGH** » Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:58 am

TheMix wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:35 pm That sounds awesome.

Edit: Actually, not sure when that was posted. But there are already Bioshock mods on Workshop. Looks like I have 8 subscribed.

This is part 2 of the Return to Rapture mod released in March. It goes from 8 to 24 maps and more Bioshock features like plasmids were added. They hope to release it on Steam workshop in a couple of weeks.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:50 am

It looks great, although I didn't love Bioshock (I liked it, but not enough to put it on my 'must replay' list.) Although a fully functioning VR version might have enough atmosphere to change that.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:55 am

DOS=HIGH wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:58 am
TheMix wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:35 pm That sounds awesome.

Edit: Actually, not sure when that was posted. But there are already Bioshock mods on Workshop. Looks like I have 8 subscribed.
This is part 2 of the Return to Rapture mod released in March. It goes from 8 to 24 maps and more Bioshock features like plasmids were added. They hope to release it on Steam workshop in a couple of weeks.

Oooo... Nice. Thanks. I was trying to sort that out yesterday, but wasn't sure what was going on.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:19 am

Getting a Quest 2 for Christmas. Any must-have game recommendations outside of Beatsaber?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:33 am

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:19 am Getting a Quest 2 for Christmas. Any must-have game recommendations outside of Beatsaber?

If Beat Saber appeals, check out Synth Riders (focuses more on the music) and Audio Trip (focuses more on the movement.) Beyond that, it's the same response you'd get asking that about any other platform - what kind of games do you like?

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:25 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:33 am
Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:19 am Getting a Quest 2 for Christmas. Any must-have game recommendations outside of Beatsaber?
If Beat Saber appeals, check out Synth Riders (focuses more on the music) and Audio Trip (focuses more on the movement.) Beyond that, it's the same response you'd get asking that about any other platform - what kind of games do you like?

That's an interesting question. RPG and TBS are probably my favorite genres, but I'm assuming there's not a lot of that on the Quest. Also, I don't have a PC anymore, so I'm limited to games specifically for the Quest, not ones I can plan on PC and stream to the Quest (although that almost makes me want to invest in a new PC).

I think what I'm looking for are games that really make the most of the VR experience.

Hyena · Post by **Hyena** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:51 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:19 am Getting a Quest 2 for Christmas. Any must-have game recommendations outside of Beatsaber?

SuperHot. Can't recommend it enough! Campaign, and afterwards there are multiple other play types, like individual levels from the campaign with different attackers, "stay alive" mode where you are attacked infinitely, and others.

Also, if you are interested in Star Wars, Tales from the Edge of the Galaxy is a fun, if short, game. It's a great starter game for VR players with full movement, inventory, shooting, and some jedi levels.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:57 pm

Thanks! I’ll add both of those to the list.

Another question: What’s multiplayer like on the Quest?

Currently the Quest that’s coming is supposed to be a joint present for my son and me. But I know him, and he’s going to try to monopolize the damned thing for sure.

If there are good local multiplayer options, I may think about getting a second one so we can play together.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:57 pm

That makes it harder. I'm not entirely sure which games are available natively on the Quest 2, as I only buy them there if they're exclusives (by buying multi-platform titles on Steam, I can play them with other headsets in the future.)

Some standouts have been (again, keeping in mind that I played the Steam version if it exists):

I Expect You to Die - a puzzle game reminiscent of No One Lives Forever in regards to theme and humor
Blade & Sorcery - a medieval combat game
Pistol Whip - Beat Saber with guns
Arizona Sunshine - zombie shooter
Synth Riders - a great alternative to Beat Saber
Audio Trip - (in my opinion) the best of the music/rhythm games
Robo Recall - a quick, fun wave shooter

Also popular and well reviewed, but I haven't played personally:

Thrill of the Fight - boxing simulator
Lone Echo - a sci-fi game that gets fantastic reviews
The Walking Dead: Saints & Sinners - an adventure/action game
Onward - multiplayer shooter
Vader Immortal - Star Wars
Tales from the Galaxy's Edge - also Star Wars

YouTube VR - much, much better than it sounds. I love almost anything recorded in VR180 - it has to be tried, and it's free.

You will likely also want to invest in a battery pack (to turn the 2 hour battery life into ~10 hours), a new strap (the included one is awful), and grip covers. If you're not already getting the strap/battery from Oculus, here are my recommendations:

My favorite source for a look at what's available and quick reviews: https://www.youtube.com/c/BenPlaysVR/videos

Mac in VR, PSVR Without Parole, and BMF are also good channels.

Check out the other thread for a discussion of free games that are out there, many of which are also available on Quest 2.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:00 am

Opened up the Quest a little early and we got sone time with it today. Very cool!

Have spent all my time with Table Eleven (the ping pong game) and Super Hot. So far, really impressed.

But I had to stop this evening after I inadvertently punched my wall-mounted TV. No damage was done, but I can see how easy it would be to lose yourself, forget where you are, and we experience some unfortunate real world collisions if not careful.

Hyena · Post by **Hyena** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:59 am

Kurth wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:00 am Opened up the Quest a little early and we got sone time with it today. Very cool!

Have spent all my time with Table Eleven (the ping pong game) and Super Hot. So far, really impressed.

But I had to stop this evening after I inadvertently punched my wall-mounted TV. No damage was done, but I can see how easy it would be to lose yourself, forget where you are, and we experience some unfortunate real world collisions if not careful.

Ha! Been there, friend. I almost put my fist through our gameroom window at 2 a.m. playing Superhot. Thank God we have 2" vinyl blinds that cushioned the blow, or I would have gone right through it...LOL

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:23 pm

I have a mat in the middle of my space. Mine is made for VR, with designs to let you feel {with your feet} which direction you are facing. But an ordinary door mat will do the job.

The ides is that I keep at least one foot on the mat unless I am doing something that just involves walking. That way I can always tell where I am in the room and don't inadvertently drift too close to the TV or wall.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:07 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:25 pm I don't have a PC anymore, so I'm limited to games specifically for the Quest

Good timing! Here ya go. All Oculus titles. Check the discussion here.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:29 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:07 pm
Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:25 pm I don't have a PC anymore, so I'm limited to games specifically for the Quest
Good timing! Here ya go. All Oculus titles. Check the discussion here.

Thanks, Blackhawk! And I'm definitely getting one of those mats. I'm currently a hazard to myself and my surroundings while playing VR!

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:53 pm

Dammit man. The library grows...

RuperT · Post by **RuperT** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:37 pm

I sometimes use a small cushioned rubber mat that normally lives in front of the stove, but not much anymore. A wee fan pointing at you can also be a good non visual reference. Oculus recently added a setting for a ghostly kind of vision of things that are too close.
Multiplayer standouts:
Walkabout golf, really great and high comfort mini golf game.
After the Fall, my current squeeze, co-op left4dead-like zombie shooter, very good.
Demeo, co-op dungeon crawler board game, slower fun and high comfort
Contractors, pvp/co-op modern shooter, great feel
My friend loves the Fortnite clone Population:One but it’s not for me.
Pokerstars VR, free Hold’em, Blackjack and slots, fun and social, high comfort

Friend macdaddy0 (that’s a zero on the end)

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:43 pm

This is the mat I have. Note that it's great barefoot or with socks, but you don't want to use it with shoes. They'll shred it. I think if I were buying one at regular retail rather than one designed for VR, I'd look at an anti-fatigue kitchen mat. Whatever you get, make sure it is something that'll stay flat on the floor. You don't want to trip over it.

And yeah, I use a fan, too, down low and angled up to blow fresh air on my face. Especially in the summer time. It can get warm inside the HMD.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:44 pm

RuperT wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:37 pm I sometimes use a small cushioned rubber mat that normally lives in front of the stove, but not much anymore. A wee fan pointing at you can also be a good non visual reference. Oculus recently added a setting for a ghostly kind of vision of things that are too close.

I tried that. Ugh, I thought it was awful, with weird Photoshop filter looking outlines constantly popping in and out when I moved around.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:57 pm

Can somebody explain one thing to me? Why are hands in all the VR games that I have seen all disembodied - not attached to arms? Whenever I see that in a video, it is extremely distracting, and totally takes me out of the game. I don't have a VR set but it looks very goofy looking. Does it look like that in a VR game or is that just a function of me seeing the output not in VR?

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:29 pm

There are not arms when in VR either. However, you get used to it pretty quickly and stop noticing. I suspect the issues is getting the arms correct. I did run a mod for Skyrim that provided arms. It would often go weird on me and the arms would get distorted. Still, it was nice most of the time. So I assume as tech advances we'll see more arms.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:57 pm Can somebody explain one thing to me? Why are hands in all the VR games that I have seen all disembodied - not attached to arms? Whenever I see that in a video, it is extremely distracting, and totally takes me out of the game. I don't have a VR set but it looks very goofy looking. Does it look like that in a VR game or is that just a function of me seeing the output not in VR?

I was the same way before I tried VR. Floating hands just looked wrong. In-game it's a different story. Arms, most of the time, are far worse. Thank proprioception.

It's important for comfort and usability that the position of the hands corresponds with your real-world hands. It's wired into our brains where our hands belong, and if you see an object on the table, reach out to pick it up, and your hands are six inches in front of where they belong, or are in the middle of your forearms, it just doesn't work. For VR, it needs to feel like you're reaching with your hands and picking something up. If not, your brain rebels and it's seriously disorienting. So hands and linked to the position of the controller, which is, in turn, linked (held in) your hand.

Arms have to fill in the space in between. The problem is that if you are smaller/have shorter arms, the arms end up bent all wrong, while if you're larger/have long arms, they end up comically stretched out. And if you have broad shoulders, you have arms coming out of your chest, or if you're thin, they're floating to your sides. It's the same way with legs - if you're shorter than the model, the legs are permanently bent and you walk like a duck.

So, floating arms. And sometimes disembodied torsos. And yeah, it looks weird, but in-game your brain fills in the gaps and you don't even notice (at least after the first game or two you play.) Again, your body knows what's supposed to be there, and most of the time we ignore our arms and focus on our hands anyway - it's the same way in-game.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:50 pm

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:29 pm Still, it was nice most of the time. So I assume as tech advances we'll see more arms.

I can imagine a function in the device that you feet your measurements to - height, inseam, arm length, shoulder width, etc, and it adjusts games accordingly through some SDK element. Or we can switch back to external cameras that track other parts of our body (feet, hips, shoulders), but that would probably be too convoluted to be consumer friendly.

Another fun thing is if you're a littler, er, large about the middle. You play a game with a player model that's super skinny, and guess what? Your ammo pouch is located somewhere inside your gut, and your sword is inside your butt cheek. Most games give you a 'belt sizer' function for exactly that reason, or have a function to define holster location by where your hand is the first time you put your gun/sword away. Of course, if you combine that with a physical body, you once again get weirdness, as the sword is floating six inches from your model's hip (and here I'm probably thinking of the same Skyrim VR mod that Mix is.)

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:19 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 pm
Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:57 pm Can somebody explain one thing to me? Why are hands in all the VR games that I have seen all disembodied - not attached to arms? Whenever I see that in a video, it is extremely distracting, and totally takes me out of the game. I don't have a VR set but it looks very goofy looking. Does it look like that in a VR game or is that just a function of me seeing the output not in VR?
I was the same way before I tried VR. Floating hands just looked wrong. In-game it's a different story. Arms, most of the time, are far worse. Thank proprioception.

It's important for comfort and usability that the position of the hands corresponds with your real-world hands. It's wired into our brains where our hands belong, and if you see an object on the table, reach out to pick it up, and your hands are six inches in front of where they belong, or are in the middle of your forearms, it just doesn't work. For VR, it needs to feel like you're reaching with your hands and picking something up. If not, your brain rebels and it's seriously disorienting. So hands and linked to the position of the controller, which is, in turn, linked (held in) your hand.

Arms have to fill in the space in between. The problem is that if you are smaller/have shorter arms, the arms end up bent all wrong, while if you're larger/have long arms, they end up comically stretched out. And if you have broad shoulders, you have arms coming out of your chest, or if you're thin, they're floating to your sides. It's the same way with legs - if you're shorter than the model, the legs are permanently bent and you walk like a duck.

So, floating arms. And sometimes disembodied torsos. And yeah, it looks weird, but in-game your brain fills in the gaps and you don't even notice (at least after the first game or two you play.) Again, your body knows what's supposed to be there, and most of the time we ignore our arms and focus on our hands anyway - it's the same way in-game.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. It still takes me out of any VR demo that I see, but it is what it is.