[TV] Wheel of Time series

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:38 am

YellowKing wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:25 am Re: the diversification, I've always applauded the diverse casting but they've seemingly made it a point to be as random (or maybe, as unrandom) as possible with it. To me it feels less like genuine diversity, and more like a stock photo company trying to make sure they get a person of every race in the same picture. Diverse leads? Fantastic, let's roll with it. Every village, tavern, inn room, Aes Sedai Ajah, and city street consisting of exactly X Asians, X African-Americans, X Indians? I mean come on. You can take even the best of intentions so far they start getting absurd.

I wish they'd at least take the setting into account. Tar Valon? Sure. Small villages? How? Not why, how? If you have 60 people, 15 each of four races, how long, genetically, can diversity really last? Now, what would have worked is if they'd have it be regional. The balance of races shifts as they travel. Given the leads, make the Two Rivers 80% black. That would be fine. At least it would make sense. The Aes Sedai - that I'm OK with, as they draw from everywhere.

I'm absolutely in favor of diversity, but it has to work within the fiction or it feels so forced and artificial that it is really a distraction.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:04 pm

RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:39 am Once again, the better scenes in the show are the ones that have nothing at all to do with the book - in this case Tigraine’s fight on Dragonmount. Sure, it doesn’t make much sense to free climb a mountain, in winter, while pregnant.

Or to have a bunch of soldiers follow her up. But cools sword/spear fight (while in labor), so I’ll allow it.

I'll have to ask the OB's I work with if they have considered that for part of their Induction protocol.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:03 pm

The racial diversity thing really only bothered me on a worldbuilding logic level for a moment. Beyond that, it's a fantasy world where x can do impossible thing, what do I care? It's not historical fiction. It's one thing if you want to evoke a real-world feeling, but there are enough series that do that. Perhaps there's an in-world reason (though from the other posts I know there must not be), not that one is needed.

But that's coming from someone who knew nothing about the series coming in, and who's also afraid to read the previous pages of this thread for fear of future-spoilers. So pardon the drive-by opinion.

I didn't know what to make of this series at first. The first few episodes seemed to employ a lot of tropes popularized by Tolkien et al. while feeling like a strange combination of young adult high fantasy and ASOIAF/GoT-light. I don't read much, but I know there's a lot more to modern fantasy than these works. However, they're going to be the obvious touchstones for many when it comes to film/television. But over the past few episodes I've really gotten hooked. The characters have grown quickly, even if I still find a couple grating. But I'm certain Rosamund Pike is a perfect human being and actor, and Alexandre Willaume, Álvaro Morte, and Daniel Henney are all a lot of fun to watch as well. So far it seems to be a good example of a huge GoT-like world done with some restraint, demonstrating you can have menace without brutality (though some brutality is certainly still present). (Again, I know the two series have different tones and are in different subgenres. There's just not a lot of decent fantasy on television that I've seen.)

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:45 pm

A wizard did it only goes so far!

FWIW, the books are far more involved than the show. I mean, that's going to be the case with any show based on a book, but WoT takes it further than most.

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:34 am

YellowKing wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:25 am I thought Episode 7 was *slightly* better than the utter snooze-fest that was Episode 6, but it was still chock-full of problems and dragged in spots. If they're going to waste this much time focusing on every nuance of every character's relationship to every other character, they're never going to get through this.

I've never read the books - we're watching because my wife is a book reader. So far the series has utterly failed to grab me. It probably doesn't help that I've dozed off while trying to get through the past two episodes.

Archinerd · Post by **Archinerd** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:08 pm

ydejin wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:34 am
As far as the diversity goes, I’m starting to think of it a bit like a Shakespeare production which has a mixed ethnicity cast. With this approach that Shakespeare companies sometimes seem to take, you just hire a bunch of good actors and you don’t worry that the ethnic mix doesn’t really reflect what Elizabethan England (or Venice or wherever the play was set) would have looked like.

Yep. Shakespeare, Hamilton, etc.

This show has a lot of flaws, but the cast diversity is a non-issue.
In fact, it kind of pisses me off that this is even a topic at all, the character's don't look like the book covers, get over it.

(just to be clear, the last two lines are not directed at ydejin)

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:32 pm

I like my cast like I like my bread...

marbled.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:38 pm

I like my cast believable.

Yeah, I know. I'm expected to support any decisions related to diversity, but I found this one to be inappropriate and it detracted from the show.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:03 pm

I don't think either Blackhawk or I care an iota about whether the racial appearance in the show corresponds to the racial appearance in the book. In fact, we've stated quite the opposite.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:22 pm

Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:32 pm I like my cast like I like my bread...

marbled.

The show could get terribly tricky if they were all "toasted".

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:24 pm

YellowKing wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:03 pm I don't think either Blackhawk or I care an iota about whether the racial appearance in the show corresponds to the racial appearance in the book. In fact, we've stated quite the opposite.

No, I don't. I care that it's inconsistent with the internal logic of the setting. I'd even be happier if the villages were all black.

And no, it doesn't ruin the show. It's a distraction, that's all. Like the way the Shannara series used 21st century pop lingo, or the way... some other fantasy series (can't remember what) did their costuming by taking modern fashions an recreating them in leather and wool (there's a wool hoodie, over there's a leather fedora...) It's there, and I try to ignore it, but once I see it it becomes a sort of a sore thumb, always just a bit of a reminder that something's Hollywood, not Taren Ferry.

To give a current counter-example, there has been a lot of drama lately in the WoW world because they've taken a bunch of irrelevant NPCs and scrambled their races to add variety, and people are acting all pissy. But unlike WoT, the lore in WoW supports it being that way. It makes sense, as the setting is in the middle of decades of non-stop war and invasions, with many, many storylines built around refugees moving from place to place. Having a variety of races reinforces the setting, it doesn't conflict with it.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:26 pm

And please don't come back with "It's a fantasy series". Fantasy only works when it's world is consistent.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:33 pm

Blackhawk wrote:...always just a bit of a reminder that something's Hollywood, not Taren Ferry.

Bingo, that's what I've been trying to convey, albeit not very well. It's not the diversity that bothers me, it's that the diversity feels like it was designed by committee instead of someone familiar with the material.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:01 pm

And again, in Tar Valon it would work. There's an in-universe reason for a commercial hub like that to have different races and cultures, and for them to survive as distinct over generations. London in an equivalent period (for example) was multi-racial. In the Aes Sedai it even makes even more sense. In fact, it would make no sense for the Aes Sedai to be all white, given that they pull into their ranks from all over.

EvilHomer3k · Post by **EvilHomer3k** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:59 pm

Maybe genetics don't work the way the work in this world. Maybe they are much more random. Maybe there aren't dominant and recessive x and y. Maybe each time a baby is born The Light rolls a D20 and that assigns skin color, hair color, etc. It seems like it is consistently random in the WoT world.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:04 pm

YellowKing wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:33 pm
Blackhawk wrote:...always just a bit of a reminder that something's Hollywood, not Taren Ferry.
Bingo, that's what I've been trying to convey, albeit not very well. It's not the diversity that bothers me, it's that the diversity feels like it was designed by committee instead of someone familiar with the material.

Exactly where I'm at. In the end my take on it is a little mixed now. I disliked that it is clearly a vision of 'Woke World' being pushed on us. The problem for me is it doesn't make much sense along the same lines raised above. However, I also allow that sometimes we need to be challenged on things. The trouble is that in this case I think it is so in your face as to be silly and smacks of moralism.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:08 pm

EvilHomer3k wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:59 pm Maybe genetics don't work the way the work in this world. Maybe they are much more random. Maybe there aren't dominant and recessive x and y. Maybe each time a baby is born The Light rolls a D20 and that assigns skin color, hair color, etc. It seems like it is consistently random in the WoT world.

That'd work if we hadn't seen some of these folks' parents.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:42 pm

After watching the last episode, I think this idea that Two Rivers is some completely isolated village that wouldn’t have anyone outside of a very specific ethnic background is just wrong. Maybe that’s the way it’s written in the books, but if so, it doesn’t follow its own in-universe logic.

Just amongst the main characters we see that Nynaeve is an outsider, we know that Rand is of a different ethnic background, we know his dad Tam is from yet another ethnic background. We know that the peddler gets all over the place and in the books the gleeman also visits Two Rivers. If gleeman and peddlers are visiting over the years, you can bet that some of them are leaving children behind, and there are clearly other outsiders such as Nynaeve, Rand, and Tam coming in that are mixing with the Two Rivers stock.

Take these sorts of interactions over a 50+ year period, and you will see an ethnic mix. Maybe primarily of one ethnic background, but by no means would the population be exclusively from that background.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:17 pm

The Two Rivers is a frontier where you come and you don’t leave. Stubborn folk is the way they’re described, not homogeneous. The fantasy world might come with some different genetic rule too.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:19 pm

EvilHomer3k wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:59 pm Maybe genetics don't work the way the work in this world. Maybe they are much more random. Maybe there aren't dominant and recessive x and y. Maybe each time a baby is born The Light rolls a D20 and that assigns skin color, hair color, etc. It seems like it is consistently random in the WoT world.

Again, 'A wizard did it' only goes so far. Yeah, it's a fantasy world, but a fantasy world like this needs to have one foot in reality to be believable. There are fantasy worlds where any and all rules can be tossed, but this isn't that type of fantasy. Those worlds are often used in works that are either extremely metaphysical/philosophical, or in comedies (Piers Anthony, Terry Pratchett, Robert Asprin, etc.)

I wouldn't have batted an eyelash at it in Galavant, for instance.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:42 pm

If the show was better, we wouldn’t be talking about this.

Emond’s Field isn’t a frontier town, with all sorts of people passing through. It’s an isolated mountain village that has been isolated for so long that they don’t even know what country they are a part of. They are kind of cool with one of the next towns over (Devon Ride), but the town on the other side (Taren Ferry)? A bunch of weirdos that are too “outsider” for good Two Rivers folk.

They aren’t a tourist destination. They aren’t a crossroads. They aren’t known for attracting outsiders who put down roots.

Nynaeve isn’t from the outside (the show added that as a diversion to make us think she could be the Dragon). Tam isn’t from the outside (although he’s been outside while fighting the Aiel War). Tam’s wife is, but she’s dead.

I don’t have any issue with a racially diverse cast. It was just jarring - knowing everything I know about Emond’s Field - that it felt like a modern urban melting pot.

Hell, if they showed Baerlon, and that was a crazy melting pot, I wouldn’t have even noticed (even though Baerlon is a backwater on the edge of the world).

But once they went in this direction - it just felt really odd so suddenly go in the other direction in Fal Dara. It was sudden and distracting. If it wasn’t for you, cool I guess. I don’t get to watch the show through your eyes or with your frame of reference.

It’s not just the diversity. It’s exactly what Blackhawk said - there are so many things in this show that scream Hollywood rather than the Wheel of Time. Literally every time I see Rand’s wool coat, I laugh at how absurd it is.

It’s always clean, and he clearly got it at The Gap. It looks fake, not authentic. It’s supposed to be the other way around.

The torches that looked like they were powered by Sterno.

What made me notice it more in this episode was that the episode sucked. I didn’t notice it (or care) in the previous few episodes, because they didn’t suck (for me).

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:06 pm

Their clothes (and how they look like they're all dry cleaned) stood out to me in the very first episode. It was also something I picked up on with the The Shannara Chronicles - no dust or dirt or mud on anything. It feels nit-picky to point it out, but when I then watch something like The Witcher (seriously, go watch S2 it is so damn good), it really stands out.

I completely agree with everyone else about the diversity stuff. It's the logic of what's being presented not that it is diverse.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:10 pm

EvilHomer3k wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:59 pm Maybe genetics don't work the way the work in this world. Maybe they are much more random. Maybe there aren't dominant and recessive x and y. Maybe each time a baby is born The Light rolls a D20 and that assigns skin color, hair color, etc. It seems like it is consistently random in the WoT world.

Spoiler:

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:13 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Spoiler:
It is this world. It takes place on our Earth.

Spoiler:

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:18 pm

I'm just immensely relieved that someone else spoke up about that one particular issue. I was afraid I'd get skewered for my position.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:36 pm

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:13 pm
Zaxxon wrote:
Spoiler:
It is this world. It takes place on our Earth.

Spoiler:
At least in the books themselves, has that ever been established? It never really mattered to the story, so it doesn’t really matter, but I never got the impression that this was future Earth or past Earth, despite the philosophical ages come and go mumbo jumbo.

I’m other words, Jordan might have said something to that effect, but it plays no actual role in the entire series, so it’s semi-irrelevant, other than to establish that DNA hasn’t been replaced by a random number generator.

Not sure if in the books themselves, but by RJ. I agree that it's not very important, other than to refute the comment to which I replied.

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:18 pm I'm just immensely relieved that someone else spoke up about that one particular issue. I was afraid I'd get skewered for my position.

Seems like a valid position to me. It doesn't bother me as much, but I fully agree it's rather nonsensical.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:23 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:If the show was better, we wouldn’t be talking about this.

Emond’s Field isn’t a frontier town, with all sorts of people passing through. It’s an isolated mountain village that has been isolated for so long that they don’t even know what country they are a part of. They are kind of cool with one of the next towns over (Devon Ride), but the town on the other side (Taren Ferry)? A bunch of weirdos that are too “outsider” for good Two Rivers folk.

They aren’t a tourist destination. They aren’t a crossroads. They aren’t known for attracting outsiders who put down roots.

Nynaeve isn’t from the outside (the show added that as a diversion to make us think she could be the Dragon). Tam isn’t from the outside (although he’s been outside while fighting the Aiel War). Tam’s wife is, but she’s dead.

I don’t have any issue with a racially diverse cast. It was just jarring - knowing everything I know about Emond’s Field - that it felt like a modern urban melting pot.

Hell, if they showed Baerlon, and that was a crazy melting pot, I wouldn’t have even noticed (even though Baerlon is a backwater on the edge of the world).

But once they went in this direction - it just felt really odd so suddenly go in the other direction in Fal Dara. It was sudden and distracting. If it wasn’t for you, cool I guess. I don’t get to watch the show through your eyes or with your frame of reference.

It’s not just the diversity. It’s exactly what Blackhawk said - there are so many things in this show that scream Hollywood rather than the Wheel of Time. Literally every time I see Rand’s wool coat, I laugh at how absurd it is.

It’s always clean, and he clearly got it at The Gap. It looks fake, not authentic. It’s supposed to be the other way around.

The torches that looked like they were powered by Sterno.

What made me notice it more in this episode was that the episode sucked. I didn’t notice it (or care) in the previous few episodes, because they didn’t suck (for me).

Eh, with the Manetheren song and tales, we know that the two rivers were completely depopulated during the trolloc wars.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:33 pm

And to be clear, it doesn't bother me that much. It's a distraction at best, and I'm generally enjoying the show. It isn't a hill I'd die on - it's just an interesting topic for conversation.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:42 am

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:13 pm
Zaxxon wrote:
Spoiler:
It is this world. It takes place on our Earth.

Spoiler:
At least in the books themselves, has that ever been established? It never really mattered to the story, so it doesn’t really matter, but I never got the impression that this was future Earth or past Earth, despite the philosophical ages come and go mumbo jumbo.

I’m other words, Jordan might have said something to that effect, but it plays no actual role in the entire series, so it’s semi-irrelevant, other than to establish that DNA hasn’t been replaced by a random number generator.

Spoiler:

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:34 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:33 pm And to be clear, it doesn't bother me that much. It's a distraction at best, and I'm generally enjoying the show. It isn't a hill I'd die on - it's just an interesting topic for conversation.

Yeah, actors act, they don't always have to be the correct shade. As mentioned upthread, I bounced hard off of the casting initially, but gave it another chance and have little problem with the actors, casting.

I will say that they don't know how to write Mat, but even Sanderson had issues with getting the appropriate voice/styles for the character as well when he picked up where Jordan left off in the books.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:42 pm

Speaking of Mat...

Spoiler:

EvilHomer3k · Post by **EvilHomer3k** » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:09 pm

Jaymann wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:42 pm Speaking of Mat...

Spoiler:
When they showed the back of someone following them through the gate, I thought it was Mat. My daughter said it was Padan Fain, and I'm sure she is right. But I think Mat would have been a better twist.

Spoiler:

Overall, the forced diversity doesn't bother me in the least. It doesn't detract from the show and I don't care about this village being diverse and this one being mostly/all asian. I have certain things that set me off as well (pretty much every physics defying scene in Speed) so I'm not trying to say you are wrong to be annoyed. Just offering a possibility. Also, it seems like you must see potential in the show as is or we wouldn't be talking about it at all. I'm sure we can all agree that it's a lot better than Shannara.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:48 am

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:42 pm The torches that looked like they were powered by Sterno.

And just once I would love to see a show set in any pre-industrial period recognize that you do not carry torches in front of you. You carry them above or behind your head, or it's like holding a light bulb in front of your eyes to see better.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:40 am

That was a great season finale. Question for the bookies:

Spoiler:

xenocide · Post by **xenocide** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:01 am

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:13 am

Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:40 am That was a great season finale. Question for the bookies:

Spoiler:
When Rand defeated the Dark One at the Eye of the World, why didn't it knock him out for 3,000 years? Or is there some other threat to the world?

Spoiler:

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:46 pm

That was definitely an episode.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:36 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:13 am
Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:40 am That was a great season finale. Question for the bookies:

Spoiler:
When Rand defeated the Dark One at the Eye of the World, why didn't it knock him out for 3,000 years? Or is there some other threat to the world?

Spoiler:
That wasn't the Dark One... See next spoiler if you want to know more...

Spoiler:
It was Ishmael, one of the 13 Forsaken, the Dark One's top lieutenants.

But that begs the question:

Spoiler:

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:37 pm

xenocide wrote:WTF

This.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:02 pm

Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:36 pm
Zaxxon wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:13 am
Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:40 am That was a great season finale. Question for the bookies:

Spoiler:
When Rand defeated the Dark One at the Eye of the World, why didn't it knock him out for 3,000 years? Or is there some other threat to the world?

Spoiler:
That wasn't the Dark One... See next spoiler if you want to know more...

Spoiler:
It was Ishmael, one of the 13 Forsaken, the Dark One's top lieutenants.

But that begs the question:
Spoiler:
Who was the Dragon Reborn of 1,000 years ago fighting, The Dark One or an LT?

Spoiler: