The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:35 pm

Seems like a vaccine only strategy is a nat sec issue too. As an aside the NY Times really went with a silly headline. Stranded? They are in port at a US Naval base.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytimes/stat ... 4843274240

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:40 pm

Our government is failing us at all levels.
It has become an unequivocal shit show that shows no sign of ending if things continue as they are.
I dont care which side of the aisle you're on, this is a national embarrassment and people continue to suffer and die.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:02 am

stimpy wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:40 pm Our government is failing us at all levels.
It has become an unequivocal shit show that shows no sign of ending if things continue as they are.
I dont care which side of the aisle you're on, this is a national embarrassment and people continue to suffer and die.

I think the Biden's administration biggest failing has been the lack of testing. But I don't see it being a "shitshow" for the most part (unless you are including many Red State governors and legislators). If people don't get vaccinated, there's not much the govt can do about that beyond what they are doing. There's only so much the govt can do if people trust online conspiracy theories, crappy doctors, FOX/OAN/NewsMax and their own "research" more than the vast majority of medical professionals and public health organizations.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:08 am

I think it's a fallacy to think the only ones not getting vaccinated are Republicans.
I personally know quite a few Democrats that wont get the shot for a multitude of reasons.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:09 am

stimpy wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:08 am I think it's a fallacy to think the only ones not getting vaccinated are Republicans.
I personally know quite a few Democrats that wont get the shot for a multitude of reasons.

Cool. Has anyone implied otherwise?

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:11 am

Alefroth wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:09 am
stimpy wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:08 am I think it's a fallacy to think the only ones not getting vaccinated are Republicans.
I personally know quite a few Democrats that wont get the shot for a multitude of reasons.
Cool. Has anyone implied otherwise?

Plenty of times.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:13 am

Kraken wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:56 pm Since my town is about half Republican, 50% is about the maximum masking I'm ever going to see without a mandate

Those that refuse to mask have to be the same people that refuse to get vaccinated, right?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:16 am

stimpy wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:13 am
Kraken wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:56 pm Since my town is about half Republican, 50% is about the maximum masking I'm ever going to see without a mandate
Those that refuse to mask have to be the same people that refuse to get vaccinated, right?

Nah, you caught me exaggerating. While the anti-vaxxers are overwhelmingly anti-mask as well -- and overwhelmingly Republican -- too many vaccinated people on both teams behave like they have an impenetrable shield, and are out of fucks to give about anybody else.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:45 am

Is there a reliable poll somewhere that shows how many Democrats and how many Republicans are vaccinated? Or is this part of the "people trusting online conspiracy theories, crappy doctors, FOX/OAN/NewsMax and their own "research" you speak of?
I dont recall anyone asking me my political affiliation before getting jabbed. Did I miss that checkbox on the form?

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:56 am

stimpy wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:45 amIs there a reliable poll somewhere that shows how many Democrats and how many Republicans are vaccinated?

Plenty, although I'm not sure why it really matters. Yes, Republicans are more likely to not be vaccinated than Democrats, but with Omicron, it doesn't really matter any more. The important thing is that you're vaccinated.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:02 am

Most recent poll I could find. Page 6/slide 14:

Have you received at least one dose of Covid vaccine, or not? Do you plan to get the vaccine as soon as possible, will you continue to let other people get it first to see how it goes, or is it likely you will never get the vaccine if you can avoid it?

Dem - 96% got vaccine, 2% See how it goes, 2% never
Rep - 54% got vaccine, 1% soon as possible, 8% See how it goes, 30% never, 7% D/K
Ind - 79% got vaccine, 5% See how it goes, 14% never, 2% D/K

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-instit ... 21521.pdf/

Of course, Independents could lean Dem, lean Rep or be truly independent.

From 4 months ago from Pew:

https://www.pewresearch.org/ps_2021-09- ... ions_a-02/

(Unfortunately, both of these are just "one shot" rather than fully vaccinated, but it's what I could find)

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:21 am

Damn....they couldn't find even 1% of Black or Asian Republicans that got vaccinated?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:29 pm

https://twitter.com/RickABright/status/ ... 7617998858

Most remarkable part of briefing: Dr Fauci, @CDCDirector @WHCOVIDResponse all wore N95 masks among fully vaccinated, highly tested group. None wore simple blue mask or cloth face covering. Now, if guidance can align w/ actions, we’d have real progress.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:32 pm

stimpy wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:21 am Damn....they couldn't find even 1% of Black or Asian Republicans that got vaccinated?

I assume the subgroup they had would be too small to be statistically valid, whether it's 1% or 99% of them that got vaccinated.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:38 pm

Grifman wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:02 am
stimpy wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:40 pm Our government is failing us at all levels.
It has become an unequivocal shit show that shows no sign of ending if things continue as they are.
I dont care which side of the aisle you're on, this is a national embarrassment and people continue to suffer and die.
I think the Biden's administration biggest failing has been the lack of testing. But I don't see it being a "shitshow" for the most part (unless you are including many Red State governors and legislators). If people don't get vaccinated, there's not much the govt can do about that beyond what they are doing. There's only so much the govt can do if people trust online conspiracy theories, crappy doctors, FOX/OAN/NewsMax and their own "research" more than the vast majority of medical professionals and public health organizations.

No, I'm with stimpy here - it's been a mess top to bottom from March of 2020. The problems are different now and sure, vaccines have made things better, but the Biden administration continues to lean hard into this vaccination uber alles messaging that is seeming coming from Zients. The question is where is Zients getting it from? Who is influencing the COVID-19 response committee with what has clearly been business/economy focused decision making?

We're about to enter year three of this and it's still a largely political dividing line for vaccinations and now masking. States are suing over workplace vaccination requirements and telegraphing a refusal to comply with anything COVID-19 related - masking, quarantining, contact tracing, etc...

Biden and the CDC are still not pushing masks. They're not pushing how data should be driving decisions for policy making. As I indicated earlier, I didn't expect the CDC to suddenly figure out why their reporting of information was terrible once Biden took over, but instead of even attempting to report useful information (breakthrough cases, for example), there's a continued focus on just getting everyone vaccinated - that's all that matters.

We are 100% being failed by elected official leadership right now, some worse than others. But even in states that are actually doing the right things, the federal government is failing them. We've had 5+ days of record breaking case levels here in NJ but our governor is in Costa Rica on vacation - he left a week ago, right as things were heating up. He was re-elected and couldn't even manage to get a masking mandate in place or announce a vaccine pass program was coming to our state. Nothing about the significant increase in cases at all schools. Nothing about rising hospital and ICU use. It's beyond inexcusable. Unless you look at everything through the economy/business lens. Then it all makes sense.

EDIT: Case in point on failure at a federal level

https://twitter.com/ErinBanco/status/14 ... 9282925576

NEW: A small update on Fauci's comments re: domestic vaxx mandate for flying.

Top admin health officials say it is not being considered at this time and probably won't be for the foreseeable future.

Could change. But that's the answer for today.

No reason to not have a domestic vaccination mandate unless the airlines are saying it will hurt their bottom line over loss of ticket sales.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:06 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:38 pm
Grifman wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:02 am
stimpy wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:40 pm Our government is failing us at all levels.
It has become an unequivocal shit show that shows no sign of ending if things continue as they are.
I dont care which side of the aisle you're on, this is a national embarrassment and people continue to suffer and die.
I think the Biden's administration biggest failing has been the lack of testing. But I don't see it being a "shitshow" for the most part (unless you are including many Red State governors and legislators). If people don't get vaccinated, there's not much the govt can do about that beyond what they are doing. There's only so much the govt can do if people trust online conspiracy theories, crappy doctors, FOX/OAN/NewsMax and their own "research" more than the vast majority of medical professionals and public health organizations.
No, I'm with stimpy here - it's been a mess top to bottom from March of 2020. The problems are different now and sure, vaccines have made things better, but the Biden administration continues to lean hard into this vaccination uber alles messaging that is seeming coming from Zients. The question is where is Zients getting it from? Who is influencing the COVID-19 response committee with what has clearly been business/economy focused decision making?

The same people who did the same thing with Trump. I hate to jump to the boogeyman but we're ruled by oligarchs. The people behind anti-vax messaging, the Great Barrington bullshit, and everything else is a fairly narrow sliver of very wealthy people.

Biden and the CDC are still not pushing masks. They're not pushing how data should be driving decisions for policy making. As I indicated earlier, I didn't expect the CDC to suddenly figure out why their reporting of information was terrible once Biden took over, but instead of even attempting to report useful information (breakthrough cases, for example), there's a continued focus on just getting everyone vaccinated - that's all that matters.

Beyond the oligarch factor we have an old guard mentality that people at large are children and they need rewards. That might be true but it drives these approaches. In effect, the argument goes, (to paraphrase) If we don't get to not have to wear masks then people will quickly learn that vaccination is a game for rubes. I'm paraphrasing very serious person Tom Nichols there by the way. And he is a nat sec expert who should know that layered defense is needed for complex problems yet he seemingly thinks vaccines should have been the easy ramp that we drove off the pandemic on. It's very frustrating.

We are 100% being failed by elected official leadership right now, some worse than others. But even in states that are actually doing the right things, the federal government is failing them. We've had 5+ days of record breaking case levels here in NJ but our governor is in Costa Rica on vacation - he left a week ago, right as things were heating up. He was re-elected and couldn't even manage to get a masking mandate in place or announce a vaccine pass program was coming to our state. Nothing about the significant increase in cases at all schools. Nothing about rising hospital and ICU use. It's beyond inexcusable. Unless you look at everything through the economy/business lens. Then it all makes sense.

It's almost like he might be one of the the wealthiest persons in the state!

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:13 pm

I mean, the Chief of Staff (Klain) is retweeting reports this morning on how awesome the economy is and how holiday spending is up - all while we are experiencing record-breaking cases of COVID-19 right now, hospitals and ER completely overwhelmed in multiple states. But the economy? Doing great!

EDIT: And also boosting "Hospitalizations are down despite cases being up" message, completely ignoring the lag between what's happening now and the ultimate rise in cases and deaths. Ignore what you're seeing and hearing about with all these cases! Everything is fine *right now* - keep spending.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:25 pm

This is what I was talking about - public health controls meets the moral hazard theory of vaccination.

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 6399575049

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:44 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Then it all makes sense.

It all makes perfect sense, expressed dollars and cents.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:42 pm

Amazingly appropriate, yes.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:15 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNewYork/s ... 1572330507

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:20 pm

I've seen more than a few hot-takes from normally reputable news people today on Twitter where they note that the dramatic increase in cases from last week isn't linked to an increase in hospitalizations. Because as we come up on *year three* of this pandemic, they still haven't figured out that there is a lag between cases and hospitalizations.

Add in a few more opinions that hospitalizations aren't as bad now as they were a year ago and I'm at a total loss. Of course they're not as bad right now - we have a vaccine, which is absolutely helping. But the cases now are *exploding* and it's straining medical response.

And yes, there are no tests available locally. People are saying a drive-thru facility that is being traffic-controlled by the police and you only wait 90-120 minutes to get a PCR test is "reasonable".

And lets not forget all those home tests that are being done and aren't being counted in any way. In other countries around the world? You can scan in the results and have them officially recorded. Here in America? *crickets*

Complete and total failure.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:52 pm

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1475583563970060293

Oh hey, the CDC officially reduced the isolation and quarantine period. They're also removing testing to leave early requirements.

Get back to work faster!

I have no doubts they're basing this on science - probably science related to the original strain, not Delta and certainly not Omicron.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:09 pm

We're doomed and we deserve to be.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:15 pm

This demonstrates the classic problem when trust in institutions breaks down. This could very well be good science but fewer and fewer people trust them anymore.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:18 pm

Let's check in then with an actual scientist:

https://twitter.com/ErinBromage/status/ ... 6681793541

I am baffled at CDC’s decision to shorten isolation. Here are tests from the same person: day 0 (3 days after exposure) and day 8. The person still has a huge amount of virus in their nose 8 days after testing positive. n=59. Quickest clearance 6 days, longest (vacc) 8.5 days.

If you read through the replies, he indicates he's seen multiple asymptomatic people still testing positive 5+ days later - meaning they can spread the virus.

But hey, did you hear about how well the economy is doing this week?

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:30 pm

Long live the economy.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:37 pm

Alefroth wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:30 pm Long live the economy.

I mean what is not more important than the below. The wealth of the few depending on the many (increasingly including young children now!) to get very sick or die is just an unfortunate side effect.

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1475608749767286788

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:41 pm

Here again - can there be any doubt? This is the head of federal public health, again giving the message that it's an individual responsibility issue. Like...do you even public health?

https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/ ... 2064484358

With these updates to isolation & quarantine recommendations, it is vital people stay home and test when sick and adhere to recommended masking in order to mitigate the spread of #COVID19, especially as we continue to see more of the #OmicronVariant.

Because the "honor system' worked great so far. JFC already.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:45 pm

What's not to get. Stay home and test if sick. I mean tests are plentiful now. People have historically done a good job not reporting to work sick. It's all sensible stuff here.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:54 pm

Are we confident that home tests are sufficiently accurate with regards to omicron? My wife and I were pretty sick for about a week but got negative results with a home test. We're getting an on-site test tomorrow.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:27 pm

Alefroth wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:54 pm Are we confident that home tests are sufficiently accurate with regards to omicron? My wife and I were pretty sick for about a week but got negative results with a home test. We're getting an on-site test tomorrow.

All of the data shows that the rapid tests are detecting the extremely contagious omicron variant, just as well as the tests picked up the highly contagious delta variant, according to Harvard epidemiologist Michael Mina.

Many have been concerned about the rapid antigen COVID-19 test’s reliability, as some people have been staying negative in the first days they have symptoms. But Mina said this means the vaccines are working.

https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/12/26 ... s-say-yes/

IIUC, though, the rapid home testing has always been more prone to false negatives compared to regular testing and the window of time where they detect it is shorter than regular testing.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:37 pm

https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1 ... 4954506242

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:58 pm

Well, every other year is an election year, and elections (usually) follow the economy.

However, we're in a boom economy that most voters aren't experiencing. We're focused on inflation -- which is driven, in part, by the boom -- rather than basking in the historic GDP and employment numbers. Ironically, letting growth deflate a point or two might knock inflation down and improve the incumbent party's prospects. That would make the donor class unhappy, though, and we all know for whom government really works.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:12 pm

Pretty clear they are balancing economy with rolling the dice.

https://twitter.com/thereidout/status/1 ... 5167517703

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:32 pm

If it wasn't examined and addressed 10+ years ago, I've seen some suggesting this feels like businesses have taken out dead peasant insurance policies on workers.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:27 am

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:32 pm If it wasn't examined and addressed 10+ years ago, I've seen some suggesting this feels like businesses have taken out dead peasant insurance policies on workers.

I’ve never heard of that before, but on reading the article you linked to, it doesn’t seem to line up with reality, regardless of how it might feel right now.

Despite the controversy, dead peasant life insurance is legal, but highly regulated.

The IRS guidelines essentially made it illegal for companies to take out a life insurance policy on their employees without their consent, regardless of how many employees the company has. In order for a company to get a corporate-owned life insurance policy, the following rules apply:

The company must notify the employee of their intent to purchase the policy and get their written consent.

Companies are only allowed to take out policies on the top 35% of their highest-paid workers.

Employees are allowed to refuse participation in the policy and employers cannot take any action against them.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:05 am

Kurth wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:27 am I’ve never heard of that before, but on reading the article you linked to, it doesn’t seem to line up with reality, regardless of how it might feel right now.

I don't think I worded my post clearly, sorry. If it wasn't examined and addressed (legally) 10+ years ago, one might think this is what is happening now. But it can't be because of all the reasons you listed (the legal changes that were made).

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:26 am

https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/stat ... qYXCg&s=19

Absolutely do not watch 'Don't Look Up' right now.

Signed,

Someone watching 'Don't Look Up' right now

Kasey Chang · Post by **Kasey Chang** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:12 pm

According to Jalopnik, CDC shorted the 10-day period to appease Delta Airlines. Jalopnik feels very... at risk.

Note that there’s no requirement for a negative test in order to leave isolation. It seems that boarding a plane while infected, then proceeding to hand out bags of chips and weirdly small cups of ginger ale, is totally fine as long as you wear a mask.