The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

[Smoove_B]

We should absolutely be using data to drive decisions - we're in 100% agreement here. The issue (and what has been the issue this entire time) is that people want to do 100% of the things they were doing before March of 2020 regardless of what's happening in the world around them. It's here that we start to see where things like wearing masks becomes problematic and confusing. We want to have swim meets and in-person debates. But we (collectively, as a society) refuse to do the "heavy lifting" that would allow us to have those events in a safer way. Things like...getting vaccinated and masking during high-risk surge events.

What keeps happening is that every time the numbers start to swing in the predicable direction post-surge, the cries for immediate relaxation of every single protection starts to whip up - just like it is now.

We are all being conditioned to just accept it. Just accept (apparently) ~2K daily deaths from COVID0-19. Just accept 60K deaths in January of 2022 (it's just like the flu) as the price we all need to pay in order to have "normal".

I keep saying it - we are always ~6 weeks away from a dramatic difference in how things look. But instead of collectively realizing that our masking polices make no sense and that willfully unvaccianted people are dragging this out, we look at our circle and think, "Eh, it's fine" and chug forward.

As mentioned two days ago, NJ is dropping mandatory masking in K-12 at a state level - at a time when Omicron variant cases are ticking up all over the U.S., as of last week. "Let the locals decide" is the rallying cry. Well guess what? Today people figured out that school buses fall under public transportation guidelines so kids K-12 still need to wear masks on the bus, but then magically when they get to school they can take them off (if the BOE tells them it's fine). Is it any wonder people are confused? Is it any wonder people think this is all a joke?

I know I keep saying it, but I give up. I've given up. I can't blame others for feeling the same. I literally don't know what to do anymore.

[malchior]

I find that part of what is being talked about above is the result of inflexiblity. We've lost the ability to have reasoned discourse to find accommodations that are balanced trade offs. Why can't the speakers in a mock trial participate for their portions unmasked for instance? In Congress and many public events the rules have evolved so that speakers are allowed to be unmasked and then resume masking when they are done. A balance.

Instead it's 100% on or off. That said I disagree on balance with Leonhardt. The guy is making judgements based well outside his expertise. He isn't a doctor. He isn't even a politician. He is a columnist for a 'very serious' institution telling us that mask data suggests this is out of balance in the midst of another huge wave of death. It's dystopian stuff IMO.

[Kurth]

malchior, one of these days I'm going to tally up how many times you've used the "very serious" characterization over the past two years when describing the views of those you do not believe are all that serious.

If anyone is in a betting mood, I'm putting the over/under at 150.

[malchior]

malchior, one of these days I'm going to tally up how many times you've used the "very serious" characterization over the past two years when describing the views of those you do not believe are all that serious.

If anyone is in a betting mood, I'm putting the over/under at 150.

I use it in the sense of Paul Krugman. It isn't about the disagreement entirely. I get that people focus on the disagreement and there is definitely some anti-establishment bias therein because I think the establishment is corrupt as hell. I just think people like Leonhardt are unfortunately corrupted by the system. They are hip deep in it. So it isn't so much disagreement as derision as he acts as an instrument of this corrupt, decadent system. Light stuff.

And notice I didn't disagree in entirety with him or you. I hope my rationale is clear here. My problem with this type of reliance is that he is acting as a sounding board for some CW that comes from an elite echo chamber of their own. In particular, the guy isn't an expert but he is making statements and judgements that implies that expertise. That's my problem in a nutshell with the 'very serious' person argument in general.

[Kurth]

malchior, one of these days I'm going to tally up how many times you've used the "very serious" characterization over the past two years when describing the views of those you do not believe are all that serious.

If anyone is in a betting mood, I'm putting the over/under at 150.

I use it in the sense of Paul Krugman. It isn't about the disagreement entirely. I get that people focus on the disagreement and there is definitely some anti-establishment bias therein because I think the establishment is corrupt as hell. I just think people like Leonhardt are unfortunately corrupted by the system. They are hip deep in it. So it isn't so much disagreement as derision as he acts as an instrument of this corrupt, decadent system. Light stuff.

And notice I didn't disagree in entirety with him or you. I hope my rationale is clear here. My problem with this type of reliance is that he is acting as a sounding board for some CW that comes from an elite echo chamber of their own. In particular, the guy isn't an expert but he is making statements and judgements that implies that expertise. That's my problem in a nutshell with the 'very serious' person argument in general.

I get that. In all honesty, I'm probably just poking fun at your frequent use of that phrase because it hits a little too close to home.

[Max Peck]

It hurts to be this blindingly stupid, right?

https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/sta ... re-edition

Over 70% of Americans who died with COVID, died on Medicare, and some people want #MedicareForAll ?

I'm taking this to mean he's saying "Fuck those fucking takers! No Medicaid for anyone!" Which is really horrendous.

Nah, he's saying that Medicare kills people and real Americans are better off without it.

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, pretty much. "Medicare is so bad that people who get on it die, so obviously it's a terrible idea."

[LawBeefaroni]

Pfft, 70%?

100% of Americans who died with COVID were Americans.



Also, extraneous use of, commas, FTW!

[Blackhawk]

Now that I think about it, if this is valid...

What percentage of people who have died with COVID voted Republican?

[LawBeefaroni]

Now that I think about it, if this is valid...

What percentage of people who have died with COVID voted Republican?

I believe the death rate was 2x for 60%+ Trump counties, pre Omicron. Not sure if there is a way to determine by actual vote.

[Blackhawk]

Close enough to use their argument against them.

[LordMortis]

It hurts to be this blindingly stupid, right?

https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/sta ... re-edition

Over 70% of Americans who died with COVID, died on Medicare, and some people want #MedicareForAll ?

I'm taking this to mean he's saying "Fuck those fucking takers! No Medicaid for anyone!" Which is really horrendous.

Nah, he's saying that Medicare kills people and real Americans are better off without it.

I had to look at his affiliation to try and figure out if this was serious or satirical.

[Jaymann]

This just in: Old people have Medicare.

[malchior]

This just in: Old people have Medicare.

And perhaps ... just perhaps that also correlates with old people dying at a higher rate. Nah. Socialism directly kills old people.

[YellowKing]

We are all being conditioned to just accept it. Just accept (apparently) ~2K daily deaths from COVID0-19. Just accept 60K deaths in January of 2022 (it's just like the flu) as the price we all need to pay in order to have "normal".

Even Fauci at this point is saying the worst is behind us and that he sees mask mandates, etc. ending. When you have probably the most trusted voice in the country telling you what you want to hear, I don't think it's much of a surprise that people are ready to accept it and move on.

[Blackhawk]

Strategic retreat, maybe? The process had started, with or without him. He wasn't going to be able to change that. But maybe moving with the masses will allow him to steer a little - avoid the cliff and wreck in the field?

[malchior]

We are all being conditioned to just accept it. Just accept (apparently) ~2K daily deaths from COVID0-19. Just accept 60K deaths in January of 2022 (it's just like the flu) as the price we all need to pay in order to have "normal".

Even Fauci at this point is saying the worst is behind us and that he sees mask mandates, etc. ending. When you have probably the most trusted voice in the country telling you what you want to hear, I don't think it's much of a surprise that people are ready to accept it and move on.

Well to be square the comments appear to be that he said he hoped the worst was behind us. We all hope the same but that's a lot different than prematurely declaring victory *again* when the average is still 2500 people a day dying. Remember when we were talking about return to normal in Summer 2021? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[YellowKing]

I think Fauci is a people pleaser. That's not to say I don't trust him, but I think he's one of those that tries to put the best possible spin on a bad situation. He's been that way since the very start of the pandemic. I don't blame the guy, I'm the same way. Nobody wants to get up there and tell people that all hope is lost.

So yes, I think he's well aware that the momentum has shifted. I'm not sure there's any real strategy behind it, though. He's probably just Fauci being Fauci - giving people a little light at the end of the tunnel, even though the tunnel is half caved in and crawling with mutant man-eating alligators.

This is the quote in question I was referring to:

“As we get out of the full-blown pandemic phase of COVID-19,” Fauci said to the Times. “Which we are certainly heading out of, these decisions will increasingly be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or mandated.

[malchior]

Right but I also suspect his comments and tenor are not being consistently conveyed there because he also said the below in the same discussion. This is a bit like Fed tea leaf reading though. The guy is definitely trying to communicate with a tinge of positive vibes but it seems like there should a whole lot more skepticism. Especially since this same behavior (premature celebration) happened in several other pandemics.

“There is no way we are going to eradicate this virus,” he said. “But I hope we are looking at a time when we have enough people vaccinated and enough people with protection from previous infection that the COVID restrictions will soon be a thing of the past.”

[YellowKing]

Yeah I get where you're coming from. But guess what the headline was for that article? "FAUCI SAYS WE ARE HEADING OUT OF FULL BLOWN PANDEMIC." I would like to think Fauci would be media savvy enough to know that the positive spins he puts on things are going to be the only takeaways by mainstream media and adjust accordingly. But apparently not.

Even after numerous run-ins with Rand Paul, etc. he continuously appears surprised when his words are taken out of context.

[Unagi]

Well, I can't blame the guy for that. Who wants to explain complicated things (a million different times) while trying to be sure nothing they say can be used out of context to make it sound like that's all they said, etc.

and, is he really surprised? or just incredulous.

[El Guapo]

Yeah I get where you're coming from. But guess what the headline was for that article? "FAUCI SAYS WE ARE HEADING OUT OF FULL BLOWN PANDEMIC." I would like to think Fauci would be media savvy enough to know that the positive spins he puts on things are going to be the only takeaways by mainstream media and adjust accordingly. But apparently not.

Even after numerous run-ins with Rand Paul, etc. he continuously appears surprised when his words are taken out of context.

Yeah, but you also have to factor in how much he talks about the pandemic. You try talking every day on camera about the pandemic without producing a bunch of five second clips that can be mischaracterized out of context.

[Unagi]

exactly.

[YellowKing]

Yeah that's a good point. I guess I'm just frustrated with the whole thing like everyone else.

[Zaxxon]

From well-known Basecamp dev DHH, presented to Smoove with love:

After Two Weeks with No COVID Restrictions in Denmark

I can't quote all the fun snippets I'd like to (as that'd be the whole post), so here's the start and finish.

It's been a couple of weeks now without any form of covid restrictions in Denmark. The daily infection numbers have remained as high as they were when the restrictions were dropped, and the positivity rate for tests is still a staggering 30%. And yet, Danish society has simply moved on.
...

At the fear of hubris, it seems the future of the pandemic is already here. It's just not evenly distributed.

Includes all the minimizing-COVID greatest hits.

[malchior]

I still love the way higher than normal death rates being waved away as death with COVID not because of COVID. It's just a weird coincidence...happening everywhere! A pandemic of coincidence perhaps. At least we don't have a monopoly on fantastical rationalizations any more.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, that's where we are headed. And you can fully expect that it's going to be disproportionately impacting various segments of society. While it's been getting buzz for months now, I suspect the word of Spring 2022 will be "eugenics", because that's exactly what we're doing.

[LawBeefaroni]

Yeah, that's where we are headed. And you can fully expect that it's going to be disproportionately impacting various segments of society. While it's been getting buzz for months now, I suspect the word of Spring 2022 will be "eugenics", because that's exactly what we're doing.

Mostly because of existing healthcare inequities. FWIW, COVID has actually brought some progress in addressing disparities of care.

[malchior]

Yeah, that's where we are headed. And you can fully expect that it's going to be disproportionately impacting various segments of society. While it's been getting buzz for months now, I suspect the word of Spring 2022 will be "eugenics", because that's exactly what we're doing.

Mostly because of existing healthcare inequities. FWIW, COVID has actually brought some progress in addressing disparities of care.

But that's the problem. It was already bad but it never was being underlined with 900K exclamation points. It has been now and most people are shrugging because it isn't their people. It it is the whole banality of evil thing.

[Smoove_B]

FWIW, COVID has actually brought some progress in addressing disparities of care.

Do you have a specific industry example you're referring to here? Like a journal article or news piece? Not asking you to share specific data from your source, I'm just not seeing anything remotely like that in my circles. I'm seeing the opposite.

Are you saying you're seeing policy/administration-level changes on the three items listed in the article above?

Spoiler:

Expand access to health care

Establish equitable care models

Address social determinants of health

[LawBeefaroni]

Yeah, that's where we are headed. And you can fully expect that it's going to be disproportionately impacting various segments of society. While it's been getting buzz for months now, I suspect the word of Spring 2022 will be "eugenics", because that's exactly what we're doing.

Mostly because of existing healthcare inequities. FWIW, COVID has actually brought some progress in addressing disparities of care.

But that's the problem. It was already bad but it never was being underlined with 900K exclamation points. It has been now and most people are shrugging because it isn't their people. It it is the whole banality of evil thing.

COVID disparities are actually becoming less stark, from the data I can find. A lot of that is probably a predictor shift from socioeconomic/race to political.

[Kraken]

Lately I've been wondering if we can say whether the states that imposed aggressive mandates and restrictions (e.g., CA, MA, NY) fared any better in terms of infections, hospitalizations, and deaths than states that did not (e.g., FL), or if the data are too murky. I'd hypothesize that vaccination rates are the only salient factor, and that mask mandates and business restrictions didn't have a measurable impact. But it would be hard to quantify since the most-vaxxed states are also the ones that imposed the most restrictions. Ideally we'd have examples of highly vaccinated populations that didn't mask or distance vs. low-vaxxed populations that were good about masking and isolating, but I doubt that those examples exist.

After all we've been through, it would really suck if we concluded that we didn't get enough data to draw meaningful conclusions, now that we're agreeing to end the experiment.

I suspect that there is too much cross-border traffic for state-to-state comparisons to mean much. Applying the same question at the international level might be more enlightening, if we could trust the national statistics from countries like China that clamped down hard.

[LawBeefaroni]

I played soccer Wed night at a giant indoor dome. Masks were "mandatory". Our pitch was all masked but several of the others were not. No one cares anymore.

[Max Peck]

Mission accomplished.

Ontario to remove vaccine passport system on March 1, masking requirements to remain in place

The Ontario government is removing the province's proof of vaccination system as of March 1, while also speeding up the second phase of its COVID-19 reopening plan to Thursday — a move that was set to happen later under the province's timeline.

In a news release, the province said despite removing the vaccine passport system, businesses and other settings may choose to continue to require proof of vaccination.

It noted masking requirements will remain in place at this time, with a specific timeline to lift this measure to be communicated at a later date.

All capacity limits in restaurants, bars, cinemas and gyms will be lifted as of Thursday, a move that was set to take effect on Feb. 21.

I'm grateful that we can finally put the horror of trying to control the spread of a highly contagious infectious disease behind us and move on with our lives.

[Zaxxon]

I'm grateful that we can finally put the horror of trying to control the spread of a highly contagious infectious disease behind us and move on with being infected with a highly contagious infectious disease.

FTFY.

[Octavious]

Don't they have like a 90% vaccination rate? I'd say that's about as good as it will ever get. Unlike some other lawless place where we roll around in our own crap.

[Blackhawk]

Coming back from the store. 5-10% mask rate, max.

[Max Peck]

The timing of the announcement is throwing up red flags for me. Ford had done everything he could to avoid doing anything to antagonize the treason-monkey convoy until they moved to blockade the border crossings. He doesn't seem to mind anything they do here in Ottawa (where people have an annoying habit of mostly voting Liberal or NDP instead of Conservative), but he probably can't afford to have them messing with the provincial economy in an election year. My guess is he scratches their back by accelerating the removal of all provincial public health measures (and covering his ass in the event that things go sideways by allowing regional public health units the leeway to set their own course) and expects the the insurrectionists to scratch his back by focusing on Ottawa and making the Federal government look bad while not fucking with the province elsewhere.

Ford has even declined to have the province coordinate with the municipal and federal governments to deal with the demonstration.

Ontario skipping third meeting with federal, Ottawa governments to discuss ongoing protests

Representatives of the Ontario government have declined a third invitation to participate in trilateral talks to deal with ongoing anti-vaccine mandate protests, sources tell CBC News.

A provincial source, who was not authorized to speak publicly, told CBC the government of Ontario Premier Doug Ford does not think trilateral talks between the federal, provincial and Ottawa municipal governments are necessary since all three levels of government have kept in touch since the protests started.

A meeting of representatives of all three levels of government was scheduled for this afternoon.

Earlier this week, Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair announced plans to set up the meeting with the two other levels of government to co-ordinate efforts to end the protest.

[Daehawk]

Im sick of hearing about assholes and idiots. I just turn off the news when it starts talking about the truckers and other assholes. Just let everyone do whatever they fucking want to do until they all die off and theres no idiots left to fuss about.

[Isgrimnur]

Daehawk, as I’m sure you know, their ability to produce more idiots is always above any attrition rate.