The 4th Estate Thread Has Surrendered

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:18 pm

What the world needed - a Barr rehabilitation tour. Sponsored by NBC and perhaps Pennzoil or Teflon.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:48 pm

It's bad enough seeing Pompeo's mug again, and now this smeghead?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:18 pm

Oh god. I wonder how much money it would take to get me to watch Chuck Todd verbally fellate Barr.

Look, I will say I'm not opposed to rehabilitating Barr in principle. It's more that the price of rehabilitation is a full and honest accounting of everything he saw and did in the White House.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:10 pm

El Guapo wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:18 pmIt's more that the price of rehabilitation is a full and honest accounting of everything he saw and did in the White House.

Maybe it'll be in his new book.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:22 pm

malchior wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:10 pm
El Guapo wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:18 pmIt's more that the price of rehabilitation is a full and honest accounting of everything he saw and did in the White House.
Maybe it'll be in his new book.

He's gotta put some nuggets in the new book, right? Presumably to cut the knees off a few political rivals and to get some fawning coverage from Meet the Press / Politico / Cilizza / etc. But only a few negative things on Trump (enough to get some positive headlines) and nothing illegal or too substantive.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:34 pm

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:55 pm

Luckily we have the NY TImes to keep him "honest"!

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:00 pm

Refreshing to live under a presidency where the fact checks that fail are due to good-old fashioned political spin and not an actual divorce from objective reality.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:13 pm

US population, 1939 - 130M
US population, 2022 - 332M

Even with an increase of jobs due to wartime mobilization, it's very likely Biden's numbers are accurate. You could argue relative to the overall workforce, but that doesn't seem to be what they are claiming.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:26 pm

This is a fundamental problem with the way the big outlets do fact checking. It is ultimately based on the fact checkers individual values. There is no real basis for the metric of 'Partially true'. Since it almost certainly *is true*.

If you really dive in to deconstruct it, we pretty much know that during the Great Depression FDR created approximately 8M or so jobs over about 8 or 9 years. Did they collect data the exact same way they did after 1939? No but it isn't like there wasn't anything there. The WPA was measured for job creation. Did anything outside WPA create millions of additional jobs? Probably not. People literally moved and fought for those jobs. You don't need to migrate if 4 or 5 jobs are being created elsewhere for every job in the WPA.

In any case, the total working population at the time makes it highly unlikely that more jobs were created before 1939. A good gut check here is that WW2 started, we mobilized one of the biggest industrial expansions in history -- sorry NY Times the data for that doesn't absolutely exist either! -- yet they still didn't create anywhere near that many jobs. And we have that data. In effect this is making a claim that someone could be 99+% certain on but they felt some responsibility to point out the tiny chance it could be wrong. It's asinine.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:18 pm

What about that time Ronald Reagan created 11 million air traffic controller jobs?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:34 pm

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:52 pm

All proceeds will be donated to #gofuckyourself.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:50 pm

I usually like Ashley Parker but her piece on WaPo today is a real turd. It has a pretty wild opening for a political piece and has many of the elements that are emblematic of what is wrong with national political reporting. Heat on Biden for made up issues? Check. Quotes from people who shouldn't be quoted without qualification? Check. Exaggerated framing of issues? Check.

President Biden explicitly called Russian President Vladimir Putin a “war criminal” Wednesday, after weeks of avoiding the term and at a time when his administration is still determining whether that label officially applies.

Biden made the dramatic accusation seemingly off the cuff, in response to a reporter’s shouted question at an afternoon event on an entirely different topic. “I think he is a war criminal,” Biden said, after delivering comments on the reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act.

Dramatic accusation? I'm pretty sure there is a pretty solid basis for that comment. But sure play up the shock value of it.

Biden watched Zelensky’s 9 a.m. address from the private library of his White House residence, absorbing an emotional plea that invoked both Pearl Harbor and Sept. 11 — two deadly attacks on the United States that came from the sky — and beseeched the president to close the skies above Ukraine.

Almost exactly four hours later, Biden responded with own remarks praising Zelensky’s “passionate” and “significant” speech, outlining the help his administration is providing Ukraine and announcing significant new aid. But he also made clear that the crux of Zelensky’s appeal — a no-fly zone above Ukraine — remains a nonstarter for the United States.

Biden’s comments, which began more than an hour after initially scheduled and ran half the length of Zelensky’s entreaty — eight minutes to Zelensky’s 16 — underscored the fluid dynamic between the two leaders, with Biden (wearing a suit, subdued, age 79) finding himself, for one of the first times since Russia invaded Ukraine, clearly in response mode to Zelensky (clad in military green, resolute, age 44).

...

His comments at times took on an almost defensive tone, as he noted that the United States had been equipping Ukraine since before the invasion, that American weapons have helped the Ukrainians inflict significant damage and that the $800 million in new aid he was announcing would include “cutting-edge systems” such as drones.

...

But since the actual war between Russia and Ukraine began three weeks ago, Biden and his European counterparts have articulated no clear end game, and Wednesday’s Biden-Zelensky juxtaposition offered something of a split screen, with the U.S. president and his team trying to explain why the administration was falling short on meeting Zelensky’s stirring request.

This is positively dumb stuff. The answer is pretty obvious. The press has been a bit out of control asking over and over about no fly zones. This is the weird intersection where they feel like they need to stir up a narrative. Unfortunately this is the one that leans into nuclear war. Every expert on Russia/nuclear war is saying this. Almost every European country has been tiptoeing around this for good reason. That is why there is no 'endgame' defined by Europe. This is a stupid, no good analysis. The idea that Biden is being pressured by Zelensky is idiotic. I'm pretty sure he feels no pressure to do anything except to avoid yelling at the press to shut the fuck up about no fly zones. Congress could stomp around all day demanding no fly zones (but they won't) and it almost certainly still won't happen. But framing Biden explaining what they are doing as having an 'almost defensive tone'? Come on. This is one example of a crisis he is handling superbly. No need to gin up this fake drama. There is enough as is.

Worse then she quotes Sasse and Collins on this.

“Zelensky has the courage of his convictions. The question he asked the Congress and the United States government is will we have the courage of ours,” said Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.). “We’re a superpower — we should act like it.”

Asked about a no-fly zone, Sasse added: “We should have gotten them planes long ago.”

And referring to a video Zelensky showed Congress that included footage of his country being decimated, Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) offered a similar assessment.

“I don’t know how anyone could listen to him and see the videos and not be in favor of sending the MiGs, sending drones, sending additional weaponry, ceasing doing business in Russia and implementing his call for broader sanctions,” Collins said.

The irony that they are siding with Zelensky when they voted to acquit a President who tried to extort him but she doesn't even mention that. Incredibly weak stuff here.

Edit: So it seems I'm not alone thinking this piece was garbage. I read this, played a little Elden Ring, went to bed, and woke up to collected pointing and laughing at her. The tweet she sent out accompanying the article is ... something.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:13 am

The President of the United States had the audacity to be seen in public wearing a suit? What is this world coming to? What's next, POTUS in a tan suit?

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:26 am

msteelers wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:13 amPOTUS in a tan suit?

Good HEAVENS, man, don't even WRITE that out!

/makes sign of the cross

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:36 am

At least he was wearing a suit. I mean Zelensky couldn't even bother to bring a suit to his war bunker!? Resolute my ass. If was truly resolute he'd look Presidential!

Spoiler:

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:33 am

"Biden's not doing enough" also brought to you by the same folks who supported a president who wanted to pull us out of NATO.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:28 am

I am no fan of cancel culture but that opening paragraph is something. The editorial has a place and a point but this erroneous thesis pollutes the whole piece. Cancel culture is tough to define but how does a world with no consequences for speech work?

Edit: I saw some lawsplainers pointed out the 'shaming and shunning' statement aligns highly with some of the most regressive laws being proposed/passed in places like Florida that are probably unconstitutional attacks on the 1st amendment.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:26 am

Being shamed and shunned has been a long-standing consequence of speech.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:34 am

Zarathud wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:26 am Being shamed and shunned has been a long-standing consequence of speech.

Apparently unacceptable to 'The Editorial Board' @nytimes consisting of people educated at our finest institutions and leveraging decades of collected journalistic experience. Greg Sargent at Washington Post did a good job succinctly positing the outline of what I'd call a negative feedback loop.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:45 am

Fox News built a media empire on this entire idea. As so many have pointed out, we're absolutely seeing the consequences of news "entertainment", wrapped in freedom of speech.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:52 am

Right. The weird thing with the NY Times flavor is that they seem to be developing something that is watering down their 'elite' brand. Their news reporting/fact checking is still top notch but they have an institutional lean that has become so predictable that the Pitchbot sometimes just retweets actual NY Times tweets. And the editorial side is ... just a complete mess. I recall El Guapo positing that maybe the time of the editorial page is in the past. That sure sounds like it was the right question.

Speaking of the Pitchbot!

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:59 am

I found this conversation interesting more for the way they each frame the issue rather than anything that came out of it.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:30 pm

Some of the conclusions are right on. The big takeaway when they get into the financials is that the news is broken now because it is forced to try attract clicks from a broken nation. I would have loved for Jon to dig in and press him if he thought the news broke us first though. There was a hint of it when he talked about Roger Ailes.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:48 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:45 am Fox News built a media empire on this entire idea. As so many have pointed out, we're absolutely seeing the consequences of news "entertainment", wrapped in freedom of speech.

Was responding to this before I saw the Jon Stewart video above, but was going to say "as Jon Stewart predicted YEARS ago, and confronted, on air, some of the worst offenders." He joked a lot of course, but about that he was dead serious - the actual, real harm that the Fox Newses of the country were doing.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:32 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:48 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:45 am Fox News built a media empire on this entire idea. As so many have pointed out, we're absolutely seeing the consequences of news "entertainment", wrapped in freedom of speech.
Was responding to this before I saw the Jon Stewart video above, but was going to say "as Jon Stewart predicted YEARS ago, and confronted, on air, some of the worst offenders." He joked a lot of course, but about that he was dead serious - the actual, real harm that the Fox Newses of the country were doing.

Unfortunately one of those folks went on to become more dangerous and more popular than ever. And unfortunately there is an ever bigger contingent cheering on the harm.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:36 am

I thought this opinion piece summating the problem with the recent NYT editorial was well done and pointed out the flaws in a concise way.

He also makes an important point that the NYT's penchant for bothsideism is built on flimsy material and ignoring the real threat of GOP attacks on our democracy.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:13 am

Yeah, the NYT has some of the best reporters in the world, but there are a lot of signs that its management / editorial staff are stuck firmly in Merrick Garland-land.

Montag · Post by **Montag** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:36 pm

malchior wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:55 pm Luckily we have the NY TImes to keep him "honest"!

I give this the same level of credibility of Trump spouting off on the greatest GDP quarter growth of all time, right after the greatest drop. Same type of PR move.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:09 pm

Doesn't "new jobs" imply it isn't just recovery? (I ask honestly, I have no idea)

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:13 pm

Well seeing how the population in 1938 was 6.9 million...

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:14 pm

Montag wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:36 pm I give this the same level of credibility of Trump spouting off on the greatest GDP quarter growth of all time, right after the greatest drop. Same type of PR move.

You're missing the point. It isn't about Biden's claim, it's about NYT's response.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:31 pm

Unagi wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:09 pm Doesn't "new jobs" imply it isn't just recovery? (I ask honestly, I have no idea)

No, it's just the difference between the number of hirings and the number of firings in a given reporting period. So if 25 people report getting fired and 125 report getting hired, you have created 100 jobs.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:43 pm

Hmm, thanks. So at least it isn't just the '125' number. (i.e. the number of people that can say they have a new job)

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:45 pm

Alefroth wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:14 pm
Montag wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:36 pm I give this the same level of credibility of Trump spouting off on the greatest GDP quarter growth of all time, right after the greatest drop. Same type of PR move.
You're missing the point. It isn't about Biden's claim, it's about NYT's response.

Right, the absurdity in the 'fact check' is that the fact is right, but that no one can actually make the 'of all time' claim, since records haven't been kept for all time. Not to mention that there is no way that pre-1939, the numbers were ever that high. And yet they can only award "partially true"

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:00 pm

Jaymann wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:13 pm Well seeing how the population in 1938 was 6.9 million...

More like 130 million.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:09 am

Popehat's take on the NYT 'cancel culture' editorial

I was directed to this opinion that Fed wrote on the Popehat substack. It is a long read but I consider it to be essential if you care to understand the problem space. He (IMO correctly) points out the problems in the NYT piece but goes on to expand to explaining the problem with the debate at a root level and suggests fixes for it. It is a hell of a good piece of writing and thinking.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:28 am

Yeah, I like that piece. I recommend you follow the link at the very end to his debate with Greg Lukianoff for another take. Even if you don't agree, it's good to see another side to it.