Ukraine

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:10 pm

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/roman ... 1648483233

They blamed the suspected attack on hard-liners in Moscow who they said wanted to sabotage talks to end the war. A person close to Mr. Abramovich said it wasn’t clear who had targeted the group.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:44 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:59 am Were the Russian negotiators there without Putin's authorization? Otherwise why would Putin poison them? But why would they be there without authorization?

If I'm reading that thread correctly, the unnamed negotiators affected were on the Ukrainian side, not the Russians. It's not clear to me whether Abramovich was there on behalf of the Russians or in some other role. Past episodes of Russian poisonings have been sloppy enough to cause collateral damage, so that may be the case here as well.

paulbaxter · Post by **paulbaxter** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:15 pm

I just looked up Gary Kasparov's op-ed from a couple of days ago and it had this gem:

Europe and the U.S. were also pushed to act by global public opinion, which mobilized very quickly in support of Ukraine. The media documented the unfolding horror in real time, with no doubt who the villain was. The exception being Tucker Carlson and some of his Fox News colleagues, who are so adept at parroting Kremlin propaganda that they should be paid in crackers.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:34 pm

Relevant:

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:47 pm

I guess I'm not sure what to make of that offer. Are those oligarchs basically offering to switch sides?

But yeah, would make sense to poison them if so.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:39 pm

Putin indirectly attacked Abramovitch and other Russians in an address a week or two ago. He claimed condemned them for making their money in Russia and sending their kids to live in luxury in the West. Nevermind that Putin himself has sent his kids to hide out in Switzerland.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:47 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:39 pm Putin indirectly attacked Abramovitch and other Russians in an address a week or two ago. He claimed condemned them for making their money in Russia and sending their kids to live in luxury in the West. Nevermind that Putin himself has sent his kids to hide out in Switzerland.

I was wondering about this. Unless Putin is certifiably insane, would he really want nuclear annihilation for his children?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:49 pm

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:47 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:39 pm Putin indirectly attacked Abramovitch and other Russians in an address a week or two ago. He claimed condemned them for making their money in Russia and sending their kids to live in luxury in the West. Nevermind that Putin himself has sent his kids to hide out in Switzerland.
I was wondering about this. Unless Putin is certifiably insane, would he really want nuclear annihilation for his children?

I mentioned this a few days ago. It's not clear what he wants or cares about Not sure he really cares about his kids other than a genetic legacy. But it's something.

https://torontosun.com/news/world/putin ... and-report

Supposedly his two eldest are bunkered in Siberia.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:55 pm

There was some chatter today that a reason why some Russian officials (like Shoigu) have been scarce is that they are all bunkered up in Ufa.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:19 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:47 pm But yeah, would make sense for a homicidal psycho killer to poison them if so.

FTFY

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:16 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:39 pm Nevermind that Putin himself has sent his kids to hide out in Switzerland.

Swiss anchor babies

Sources say they share 7-year-old twin daughters, who were born near Lugano, Switzerland, in February 2015. It is believed they also have two sons.

“Alina has two young boys and twin girls with Putin who were born in Switzerland,” a source told Page Six about Putin’s alleged children with Kabaeva, 38. “The kids all have Swiss passports, and I imagine she does also.”

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:22 pm

I think I’ve found my new call sign in every game going forward.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:00 pm

At a campaign rally in Georgia on Saturday, former President Donald Trump once again praised Vladimir Putin's intelligence, calling the Russian president's decision to place troops on the border of Ukraine "a great negotiation."

"The smartest one gets to the top. That didn't work so well recently in our country," Trump said during the rally. "But they ask me, 'Is Putin smart?' Yes, Putin was smart. And I actually thought he was going to be negotiating. I said, 'That's a hell of a way to negotiate, put 200,000 soldiers on the border.'"

During his remarks, Trump called Putin's attack on Ukraine "heinous attacks on a proud and sovereign nation," then praised authoritarian leaders Kim Jong-Un, Xi Jinping, and Putin for their intelligence.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-c ... ion-2022-3

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:45 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:22 pm I think I’ve found my new call sign in every game going forward.

Kabaeva38?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:06 pm

You may call me “Swiss Anchor Baby”

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:38 pm

For short.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:58 pm

Oh, I plan on merching the hell out of this new name.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:37 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:00 pm
At a campaign rally in Georgia on Saturday, former President Donald Trump once again praised Vladimir Putin's intelligence, calling the Russian president's decision to place troops on the border of Ukraine "a great negotiation."

"The smartest one gets to the top. That didn't work so well recently in our country," Trump said during the rally. "But they ask me, 'Is Putin smart?' Yes, Putin was smart. And I actually thought he was going to be negotiating. I said, 'That's a hell of a way to negotiate, put 200,000 soldiers on the border.'"

During his remarks, Trump called Putin's attack on Ukraine "heinous attacks on a proud and sovereign nation," then praised authoritarian leaders Kim Jong-Un, Xi Jinping, and Putin for their intelligence.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-c ... ion-2022-3

He is a useless piece of shit for sure. If someone blew a hole in his head with a shotgun he'd be fine cause theres not a thing up there helpful.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:09 pm

It was revealed that Ukraine has requested 1000 Stinger missile systems. I thought ya sounds like a lot but they will go through them I guess. Then the news guy finished his sentence with "each day"....1000 a day?? Geebus.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:22 pm

Daehawk wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:09 pm It was revealed that Ukraine has requested 1000 Stinger missile systems. I thought ya sounds like a lot but they will go through them I guess. Then the news guy finished his sentence with "each day"....1000 a day?? Geebus.

You ask for a lot and hope you get some fraction of it.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:18 am

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:53 am

They should get a full removal of troops, the Donbas and Crimea back.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:58 am

And unconditional security guarantees coming from Putin seems like a fucking joke to me.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:02 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:58 am And unconditional security guarantees coming from Putin seems like a fucking joke to me.

From the tweets, it seemed like the NATO nations were guaranteeing the security.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:08 pm

Ask the Poles how well that worked out for them.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:43 pm

Ukraine: A Lament

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:59 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:02 pm
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:58 am And unconditional security guarantees coming from Putin seems like a fucking joke to me.
From the tweets, it seemed like the NATO nations were guaranteeing the security.

That is what folks said on our side as well. Except for any discussion that'd happen here. Which it won't. There is little chance we guarantee the safety of Ukraine. That's like half-pregnant NATO membership. Unless I'm misunderstanding it.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:02 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:59 pm
stessier wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:02 pm
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:58 am And unconditional security guarantees coming from Putin seems like a fucking joke to me.
From the tweets, it seemed like the NATO nations were guaranteeing the security.
That is what folks said on our side as well. Except for any discussion that'd happen here. Which it won't. There is little chance we guarantee the safety of Ukraine. That's like half-pregnant NATO membership. Unless I'm misunderstanding it.

Half-pregnant indeed. I still think they should be in NATO after this (assuming they want to be), so it really doesn't bother me.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:13 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:02 pm
malchior wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:59 pm
stessier wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:02 pm
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:58 am And unconditional security guarantees coming from Putin seems like a fucking joke to me.
From the tweets, it seemed like the NATO nations were guaranteeing the security.
That is what folks said on our side as well. Except for any discussion that'd happen here. Which it won't. There is little chance we guarantee the safety of Ukraine. That's like half-pregnant NATO membership. Unless I'm misunderstanding it.
Half-pregnant indeed. I still think they should be in NATO after this (assuming they want to be), so it really doesn't bother me.

Conceivably a deal could involve the deployment of some U.S. / European troops to Ukraine, which would serve as a kind of tripwire - would deter a future Russian invasion because they would know that they would come into contact with U.S. / European troops. That wouldn't involve Ukraine joining NATO (if that's too radioactive to be part of a deal for Russia) but would achieve much of the same purpose.

Of course, not sure that western troops getting deployed to Ukraine is much better from the Russian perspective, and not sure whether we would agree to that.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:18 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:13 pmOf course, not sure that western troops getting deployed to Ukraine is much better from the Russian perspective

I feel certain Putin would consider that to be much worse.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:25 pm

Well I’m fine with if they can get ‘unconditional NATO guaranteed security’ on the negotiating table , but I would think that would go directly against what Putin set out to achieve here.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:26 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:18 pm
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:13 pmOf course, not sure that western troops getting deployed to Ukraine is much better from the Russian perspective
I feel certain Putin would consider that to be much worse.

Right and anyway it seems unlikely that we're going to agree as a condition of peace to perform actions we actively said we wouldn't do during the hot war. It still has all the same escalation risks yet we'll commit to them in some hypothetical future scenario? It is dubious.

IMO none of this is real. In the sense it'll lead to something sustainable. The Russians simply aren't trustworthy. Whatever agreement will last until they can abuse it. They are mafioso. And it looks more like they are trying to buy time to reposition. In that frame of course they'll be accommodating. The Russians will talk about agreeing to things in principle because they almost certainly have no intention of doing them. I don't know how it'll end but this seems like an unlikely path though stranger things have happened.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:32 pm

That's where I stand. They weren't expecting the costs of the near failed invasion. Now they're playing for time. They're looking for a way to fall back and lick their wounds while looking (at home) like they got what they wanted.

They have not given up.

They are never going to agree to something that will preclude trying again in the future.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:15 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:25 pm I would think that would go directly against what Putin set out to achieve here.

There are a lot of things happening that are directly against what Putin set out to achieve here.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:19 pm

I know how easy it is for me to feel like this from the comfort of my home, on the other side of the planet... But I really don't want anything short of Putin's removal. His reign has to end with this invasion, anything short of that is going to feel like a huge mistake to me.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:25 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:19 pm I know how easy it is for me to feel like this from the comfort of my home, on the other side of the planet... But I really don't want anything short of Putin's removal. His reign has to end with this invasion, anything short of that is going to feel like a huge mistake to me.

That's exactly where I'm at. There is nothing he can say or do to put any faith that is government won't sacrifice whatever he wants at his whim for his ego. The last 8 years has exposed his lie after lie with his use of any means to achieve the end that he won't disclose publicly. Ukraine was telegraphed years ago and the broadcast just kept louder and louder, to say nothing of the people killed in the intervening years.

That this thread started in 2013 ought to say something.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:26 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:19 pm I know how easy it is for me to feel like this from the comfort of my home, on the other side of the planet... But I really don't want anything short of Putin's removal. His reign has to end with this invasion, anything short of that is going to feel like a huge mistake to me.

That you, Joe?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:28 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:26 pm
Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:19 pm I know how easy it is for me to feel like this from the comfort of my home, on the other side of the planet... But I really don't want anything short of Putin's removal. His reign has to end with this invasion, anything short of that is going to feel like a huge mistake to me.
That you, Joe?

I thought the same thing.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:37 pm

I'd be fine with some face-saving sort of agreement (just to stop the senseless killing), but with the expectation that we would clamp sanctions back down, and then some, the second we saw Putin lift as much as a pinkie finger in the direction of Ukraine. Otherwise we're at an indefinite stalemate.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:41 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:37 pm I'd be fine with some face-saving sort of agreement (just to stop the senseless killing), but with the expectation that we would clamp sanctions back down, and then some, the second we saw Putin lift as much as a pinkie finger in the direction of Ukraine. Otherwise we're at an indefinite stalemate.

That pretends that the sanctions are controlled by one entity with a switch, that can make a call and make the move. These sanctions are in place now, any peace agreement will include an ease on them, which will then erode at the resolve that keeps them all in place. It would take another massive misstep from Putin for the sanctions to be turned back on, in your hypothetical.