Shootings

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:38 pm

No joke: a good deal of "the problem with this Government" is truly "a problem with the voters in Kentucky"

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:45 pm

How about a bill to use Kentucky to form a land bridge between Texas and Florida, then boot them out of the union? We could shift Puerto Rico up to fill the Kentucky-sized hole. I mean, they'd have a nice moat, but still...

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:28 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:28 pm I'll ask it again separately, because most people are probably tuning the other discussion out:

If we had a great bill in hand right now, and figured out the best combination of reforms to prevent this from happening again, what would we do with it? Where would it go?

Obviously nowhere, because Republicans would not pass it. They value gun rights more than lives. As I noted above, dead children are just part of the cost of freedom.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:29 pm

In the last ten years, more children have died from guns than policemen and soldiers.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:08 pm

One of the problems is that children are shooting children. Maybe our society needs to change the way they think.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:29 pm

Blackhawk wrote:I'll ask it again separately, because most people are probably tuning the other discussion out:

If we had a great bill in hand right now, and figured out the best combination of reforms to prevent this from happening again, what would we do with it? Where would it go?

It would die in the Senate. But there is value in making the Senate kill it. People should continue to see who is stopping anything from happening and who is responsible for continuing to enable this bullshit.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:13 pm

I swear to god, I feel like I'm having the same conversation twice.

And yes, Schumer plans to force a vote for exactly that reason, hoping to affect the midterms, hoping to give the Democrats another chance. In other words, we're using unpassable gun control legislation as a tool to fix the government.

I just think it is a particularly risky tool, as it is one that has a history of energizing the right and driving them to vote, so it has the potential to backfire.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:15 pm

For what it's worth, BH, I'm picking up what you're putting down. Gun control has been a political albatross all my life. Maybe Uvalde has finally changed that, but I'm deeply skeptical.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:18 pm

dbt1949 wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:08 pm One of the problems is that children are shooting children. Maybe our society needs to change the way they think.

Most of that is accidental. Children killing children happens when mom or dad leaves the guns in a drawer or under the bed.

If you mean school shootings, it's still a similar problem. Parents leave guns accessible or laws make it possible for teens to buy them.

Firearms should be as hard to acquire and use as cars and trucks, and they should be as closely licensed and monitored. At a minimum, that's what a well-regulated militia would be.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:49 am

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:13 pm I swear to god, I feel like I'm having the same conversation twice. And yes, Schumer plans to force a vote for exactly that reason, hoping to affect the midterms, hoping to give the Democrats another chance. In other words, we're using unpassable gun control legislation as a tool to fix the government. I just think it is a particularly risky tool, as it is one that has a history of energizing the right and driving them to vote, so it has the potential to backfire.

All political choices have risks. The Democrats have consistently been terrible at analyzing the risks and I think this could be one of them. We have to consider Americans at large don't understand that the Senate is broken. They generally don't understand the dynamics of what is happening at all. So it is hard to 'inform them' even if they cared to be informed. Which they mostly don't.

In any case, with that as a ground floor I think we see multiple risks here with some offsets. One is as noted they energize the right, another is that they risk demonstrating to the public at large that they failed again to be an agent of change, and that is offset by an increasing group in the democratic caucus that wants the Democrats to take up the right's penchant for performance.

It's a tough spot for the Democratic leadership. They are being pulled like taffy out of shape by these and other multiple competing and opposing trade offs. It'd be a challenge for great leaders but Schumer et. al. are anything but great.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:10 am

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:13 pm I swear to god, I feel like I'm having the same conversation twice. And yes, Schumer plans to force a vote for exactly that reason, hoping to affect the midterms, hoping to give the Democrats another chance. In other words, we're using unpassable gun control legislation as a tool to fix the government. I just think it is a particularly risky tool, as it is one that has a history of energizing the right and driving them to vote, so it has the potential to backfire.

I mean, it's not really being used as a tool to fix the government, as slow as these iterations take - this is kinda how the government was designed to work. Learn how a man will vote on an issue -> decide if you want to vote for him. The mother-fuckers of Kentucky keep sending this man to do what he does. His party makes him the leader. He keeps us from 'fixing' the government because he thinks it's not broken.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:11 am

Unagi wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:38 pm No joke: a good deal of "the problem with this Government" is truly "a problem with the voters in Kentucky"

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:18 am

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:11 am
Unagi wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 12:38 pm No joke: a good deal of "the problem with this Government" is truly "a problem with the voters in Kentucky"

I saw judge Salas on Morning Joe today talking about the bill to protect judges. This comes after an assassination of a former judge in Wisconsin. Her son was killed in an attempted assassination on her life. She didn't name him but the main blocker constantly is Rand. All they want to do is protect judges from being searchable in public databases.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:24 am

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:10 am I mean, it's not really being used as a tool to fix the government, as slow as these iterations take - this is kinda how the government was designed to work. Learn how a man will vote on an issue -> decide if you want to vote for him.

But there is a complication to that. One side has abused the system such that those who actually decide who to vote for (as opposed to just blindly pressing the red or blue button) don't matter nearly as much as they are supposed to.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:09 pm

More pressure.

Major Republican donors, including some that have contributed to Gov. Greg Abbott’s campaigns, joined other conservative Texans in signing an open letter supporting congressional action to increase gun restrictions in response to the mass shooting in Uvalde that left 19 children and two teachers dead last week.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:18 pm

Accusations that they're George Soros' pawns in 3....2....

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:02 am

Hey look, someone took the "Swiss cheese" model that was popularized during the early days of the pandemic and re-created it for firearm death:

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:02 am

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:02 am Hey look, someone took the "Swiss cheese" model that was popularized during the early days of the pandemic and re-created it for firearm death:

Even if you could find swiss cheese that big, it wouldn't stop head-sized cannon balls.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:02 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:02 am
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:02 am Hey look, someone took the "Swiss cheese" model that was popularized during the early days of the pandemic and re-created it for firearm death:

Even if you could find swiss cheese that big, it wouldn't stop head-sized cannon balls.

But why do they wear cheese on their heads in Wisconsin then?

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:16 pm

At Ulvalde I know what those cops are thinking now but what were they thinking when loitering around the school while the shootings were going on?
I can remember once when I was being shot at and I had a place of good cover and thinking "This is a good place to stay the rest of my life. I think I'll just stay here."
My sgt yelled at me to get going and I did. That's all it took.
Maybe all those cops needed was someone to tell them to go. So maybe lack of leadership was their problem. Were there no supervisors there? If so maybe that's where the cop's blame should go.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:24 pm

CNN

Douglas K. Uhde, the man accused of shooting and killing former Juneau County Circuit Court Judge John Roemer, died Tuesday after being in critical condition for four days, according to a news release from the Wisconsin Department of Justice.

Uhde, 56, was declared legally brain-dead at 9:41 a.m. Saturday and his body remained on life-support until Tuesday to allow for organ donation, the release said.
Judge Roemer, 68, was killed Friday in a New Lisbon, Wisconsin, home, the state's Justice Department said in a statement. Uhde was identified as a suspect, and was found in the basement of the home with an "apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound," according to the state DOJ.

It was later revealed that Uhde had been sentenced to prison by the judge more than 15 years ago, court documents show.

Kasey Chang · Post by **Kasey Chang** » Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:19 am

Tom the Dancing Bug has a pretty funny, albeit dark humor, on the mass school shootings. It can be roughly summarized as:

Spoiler:

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:22 am

My die hard extreme right coworker just posted a link to an article about the Uvalde shooting. According to its summary, we've been blaming the wrong things

Decades of feminization, emasculation, and preferential hiring account for America’s low-intelligence, self-serving workforce. This malevolent matriarchy in the making increasingly lacks the higher-order capacity for altruism and heroism.

Christ, you can't make this shit up. There are people out there who think this.

In a final bit of irony, this hateful article, which starts off complaining about gay rights, ends with a quote from Oscar Wilde. Someone isn't as smart as they think they are, methinks.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:36 am

hepcat wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:22 am My die hard extreme right coworker just posted a link to an article about the Uvalde shooting. According to its summary, we've been blaming the wrong things

Decades of feminization, emasculation, and preferential hiring account for America’s low-intelligence, self-serving workforce. This malevolent matriarchy in the making increasingly lacks the higher-order capacity for altruism and heroism.
Christ, you can't make this shit up. There are people out there who think this.

In a final bit of irony, this hateful article, which starts off complaining about gay rights, ends with a quote from Oscar Wilde. Someone isn't as smart as they think they are, methinks.

I think someone here has it in their sig: When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:48 pm

I for one welcome our malevolent matriarchal masterminds.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:06 pm

The funny thing, that same article also ridicules my coworker's personal god, Trump.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:02 pm

Three were injured at a mall food court in Gastonia today when shooting broke out (right near my dad's place). Fortunately nobody was killed, so you won't hear about it. Those are the nearly daily incidents that are occurring but never break through to national discussion.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:35 am

YellowKing wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:02 pm Three were injured at a mall food court in Gastonia today when shooting broke out (right near my dad's place). Fortunately nobody was killed, so you won't hear about it. Those are the nearly daily incidents that are occurring but never break through to national discussion.

10 days into June and we're at:

Total Shot: 103
Shot & Killed: 20
Shot & Wounded: 83

Year To Date
Total Shot: 1333
Shot & Killed: 249
Shot & Wounded: 1084

Total Homicides: 274

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:02 am

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:42 pm

Let me practice my shocked face.

Guardian

The lead Republican negotiator in US Senate dialogue toward a bipartisan gun safety bill walked out of the talks on Thursday, dimming the likelihood of a vote on the legislation before senators leave for a two-week July 4 recess.

Senator John Cornyn told reporters that he had not abandoned the negotiations, but he was returning to Texas amid difficulty reaching agreement.

“It’s fish or cut bait,” he said. “I don’t know what they have in mind, but I’m through talking.” Other senators in the huddle remained inside the room.
...
[T]he talks have become bogged down in disagreements over two main provisions: how to provide incentives to states to create so-called red flag laws, in which guns can be temporarily taken away from people deemed dangerous, and the “boyfriend loophole,” allowing authorities to block abusive spouses from buying firearms, but does not cover people who aren’t married.

Cornyn, whose home state of Texas does not have a red-flag law and is considered unlikely to enact one, wants the funding for that provision to cover other efforts towards tackling mental illness issues, such as “crisis intervention programs.”

Cornyn said earlier on Thursday negotiators would need to reach agreement that day to have legislation ready in time for a vote next week.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:58 pm

As they said they would, IN WRITING.

Pyperkub wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:18 am Please note that the GOP strategy is to do nothing.

In writing

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... y-1362970/

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:18 pm

Just another day in this loony bin.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jjmacnab/sta ... 8859649024

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:15 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/17/us/u ... olice.html

UVALDE, Texas — A city police officer armed with an AR-15-style rifle hesitated when he had a brief chance to shoot the gunman approaching a school in Uvalde, Texas, because he did not want to hit children, according to a senior sheriff’s deputy who spoke to the officer.

The fateful decision, which has not been previously reported, represented the second missed opportunity for officers arriving at Robb Elementary School to prevent a massacre by intervening while the gunman was still outside the school. Officials have said that an officer from a different department, the Uvalde school district police force, arrived early but drove past the gunman, not seeing him in the parking lot of the school.

The quick arrival of several officers on May 24 reflected the speed with which the initial response took place, and contrasted sharply with what would become a protracted delay in finally confronting the gunman after he began shooting inside a pair of connected fourth-grade classrooms.

It also made clear the agonizing decisions law enforcement officers had to make as they confronted the gunman, who was firing shots outside the school; the officer who arrived with a rifle had only seconds to make a decision, and feared that firing his weapon could have meant hitting children, the senior sheriff’s deputy said.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:24 am

Well at least the armed teachers in the school won't need to think about that - they can just start blasting.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:39 am

“I asked him, ‘Why didn’t you shoot? Why didn’t you engage?’ And that’s when he told me about the background,” he said. “According to the officers, they didn’t engage back because in the background there was kids playing and they were scared of hitting the kids.”

That's at least an understandable reason to hesitate, as opposed to [ralph]"I'm in danger!" [/ralph] The training to not take risky shots when you might hit bystanders is intense, and filled with nightmarish scenarios that keep you awake at night, scenarios of civil suits that destroy your family, scenarios of years in prison for reckless homicide of a child. Taking out a hostage to take down the hostage taker is the kind of split-second decision that goes beyond what the average cop is ever expected to face, and it definitely opens the door to a few seconds of, "Oh, god, what do I do?"

At the time, the shooter hadn't gone into the school. With hindsight, knowing what happened, it's easy to blame this cop, but I don't think that's reasonable. The cops who refused to act once they knew what the situation was, on the other hand...

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:52 am

It certainly underscores the problem with ‘more guns in school’.

Also, I hate to say it but I’m no longer feeling confident with trusting any accounting of the events, presented by the police.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:01 am

Unagi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:52 am It certainly underscores the problem with ‘more guns in school’.

Also, I hate to say it but I’m no longer feeling confident with trusting any accounting of the events, presented by the police.

Especially when the word 'Uvalde' is anywhere on the uniform.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 am

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:01 am
Unagi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:52 am It certainly underscores the problem with ‘more guns in school’.

Also, I hate to say it but I’m no longer feeling confident with trusting any accounting of the events, presented by the police.
Especially when the word 'Uvalde' police is anywhere on the uniform.

Police lie. A lot. It is well documented.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:30 am

malchior wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 am
Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:01 am
Unagi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:52 am It certainly underscores the problem with ‘more guns in school’.

Also, I hate to say it but I’m no longer feeling confident with trusting any accounting of the events, presented by the police.
Especially when the word 'Uvalde' police is anywhere on the uniform.
Police lie. A lot. It is well documented.

I know. But most do it with bluster - "here is what we're telling you, no further comment", when the real truth is hidden and takes effort to dig out. The Uvalde chief, on the other hand, took it to Trump-like levels of absurdity and obviousness.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:39 am

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:30 am
malchior wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 am
Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:01 am
Unagi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:52 am It certainly underscores the problem with ‘more guns in school’.

Also, I hate to say it but I’m no longer feeling confident with trusting any accounting of the events, presented by the police.
Especially when the word 'Uvalde' police is anywhere on the uniform.
Police lie. A lot. It is well documented.
I know. But most do it with bluster - "here is what we're telling you, no further comment", when the real truth is hidden and takes effort to dig out. The Uvalde chief, on the other hand, took it to Trump-like levels of absurdity and obviousness.

Fair enough. It is not an exciting development.