The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:13 pm

I've been wondering that, as well. It sure seems like it demonstrates that Biden delegated decisions regarding executive privilege (eg the opposite of pursuing a political vendetta/witch hunt), and that Trump's camp knew (and, by way of the mention of running decisions past Trump himself--that Trump himself knew) they were in improper possession of classified documents over a long period of time, with copious written correspondence about this fact.

How is this good other than riling up the base (somehow, through some inscrutable/irrational mechanism)?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:20 pm

It's because they know their people don't give a shit about process. All of it is illegitimate. The idea is that they'll read half of the first sentence and have their suspicions confirmed that it is a witch hunt because the grammar is good.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:45 pm

malchior wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:20 pm It's because they know their people don't give a shit about process. All of it is illegitimate. The idea is that they'll read half of the first sentence and have their suspicions confirmed that it is a witch hunt because the grammar is good.

Inscrutable/irrational--figured.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:01 pm

Don't forget that Trump Jr. released the e-mail exchange with the Russian government official in early 2016 where Russia was offering campaign help and he replied "if it's what you say then I love it." For one, they have an understanding that people assume that if something is out in the open then it can't be that bad, while if you're trying to keep it secret then it probably is bad. So they make this open, plus as malchior says no one really understands this stuff so they're happy to accept Trump World's posture on this because Trump is in the tribe and anyone from NARA who is opposing Trump is not in the tribe.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:31 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:13 pm I've been wondering that, as well. It sure seems like it demonstrates that Biden delegated decisions regarding executive privilege (eg the opposite of pursuing a political vendetta/witch hunt), and that Trump's camp knew (and, by way of the mention of running decisions past Trump himself--that Trump himself knew) they were in improper possession of classified documents over a long period of time, with copious written correspondence about this fact.

How is this good other than riling up the base (somehow, through some inscrutable/irrational mechanism)?

When you have no meat to throw, and the base may be as hungry as it ever has been before... I think they felt they should at least through an old shoe into the pit to keep them biting at something.

Also, I think they thought maybe it could make it look like Biden (who didn't back Trump's executive privilege on the documents) could be made too look like he was the one behind the "political attack"

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:50 pm

The Barr memo that declined to prosecute Trump for the Mueller report volume 2 findings has dropped. A lot of folks thought volume 2 supported a prosecution. Andrew Weissman who was on Mueller's team called it a 'whitewash'! I'll wait for a few more folks but this should be a MASSIVE SCANDAL. The President's AG apparently gave impunity for (edit) a series of crimes to the sitting President. What REALLY IRKS me is apparently Garland just accepted it. It makes sense why DOJ fought tooth and nail not to release it. It exposes that the DOJ was a cesspool and further despite a changing of the guards, they chose to try to sweep it under the rug. Ugly stuff. The DOJ is rotten to the core but not for the reasons that Trump would imagine.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:54 pm

Absolutely enraging.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:59 pm

Can't wait for the next Josh and Ken podcast.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:26 pm

"Your honor, my client only directed people to commit crimes - he didn't actually commit them and let the record reflect that neither did his direct reports. Do you really want to punish my client for airing his thoughts? Are we now the thought police?"

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:31 pm

As is usual the media can only focus on what the Republicans are outraged about today. Today's excuse for not doing their job is ... oh the government helped some people out instead of giving rich people tax breaks or something. Sounds right. Guess we don't need to talk about the many crimes a President committed and were covered up by the top law enforcement official in the United States. No big deal.

*That said, there was some press. The NY Times article on it did point out some interesting things. Such as how the memo was produced 2 days after Barr's office was handed the 400 page report. They also described it as being basically defenses of the President. Good observation @NYTimes but existential rot is boring or something. We should just move on and hope it gets better.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:17 am

That sounds suspiciously like Trump's impeachment defense. "The extortion never actually went through, so there's no crime!" I guess if you attempt to murder someone, and they don't die, everything's cool, right?

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:42 am

Yes. Apparently the only crime one can truly commit is one that was gotten away with.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:55 am

So I have to say giving this a day to percolate that I didn't expect that we've apparently reached the point where every major institution is essentially accepting major corruption at the DOJ as a curiosity. The Barr memo story was on A14 in the NY Times. A few legal commentators talked about it briefly yesterday. It isn't even on the website of a major newspaper today. Everyone accepts the corruption and elite inculpability. This is why we're a shit hole nation.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:13 am

malchior wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:55 am So I have to say giving this a day to percolate that I didn't expect that we've apparently reached the point where every major institution is essentially accepting major corruption at the DOJ as a curiosity. The Barr memo story was on A14 in the NY Times. A few legal commentators talked about it briefly yesterday. It isn't even on the website of a major newspaper today. Everyone accepts the corruption and elite inculpability. This is why we're a shit hole nation.

I think it's mostly that the privilege issues are complicated enough that most reporters don't fully understand it, and have even less expectation that readers will understand or care.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:17 am

And it happened 3 years ago. Trump's meltdown today is much more entertaining.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:18 am

El Guapo wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:13 am
malchior wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:55 am So I have to say giving this a day to percolate that I didn't expect that we've apparently reached the point where every major institution is essentially accepting major corruption at the DOJ as a curiosity. The Barr memo story was on A14 in the NY Times. A few legal commentators talked about it briefly yesterday. It isn't even on the website of a major newspaper today. Everyone accepts the corruption and elite inculpability. This is why we're a shit hole nation.
I think it's mostly that the privilege issues are complicated enough that most reporters don't fully understand it, and have even less expectation that readers will understand or care.

That's sort of the problem. If we keep excusing everything as 'too complicated' or 'too boring' then we're going to just see a continuation of the decline. Maybe it's inevitable at this point.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:18 am

FWIW, it's on the first page (below the fold) of the "Nation & World" section of the Chicago Tribune, which is essentially the second section (of 3) of the paper. For reference, front page of the first section above the fold is debt forgiveness, and below the fold is local stuff (Obama center, alderman pay).

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am

But what's coming in on the telegraph???!

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:21 am

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:18 am FWIW, it's on the first page (below the fold) of the "Nation & World" section of the Chicago Tribune, which is essentially the second section (of 3) of the paper. For reference, front page of the first section above the fold is debt forgiveness, and below the fold is local stuff (Obama center, alderman pay).

Right. It was at the back of A in the NY Times, buried in the Washington Post. In a past era, this would have been a major, major scandal. If a Democrat was involved it'd be blasting out of every tv right now. But now? It's just old news. We've accepted decadence and decadence we will have.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:30 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am But what's coming in on the telegraph???!

I'm planning on checking the newsreel later today. Stay tuned!

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:48 am

The affidavit has been ordered to be released by noon today and the judge adopted all of the DOJ's redactions. I'm sure the good stuff will be black-barred, but we could learn about how Trump was president and had access to classified documents...

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:38 am

This hell of a story about a Russian posing as a Rothschild to get access to Trump has to be part of why the FBI and others freaked out about Trump keeping so much classified material at Mar-a-Lago.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:21 pm

The affidavit.

Popehat did pretty well predicting it would be over 30 pages with the intro exposed but almost everything else blacked out.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:22 pm

Trump said that because the words Nuclear aren't listed anywhere he's in the free and clear. I will go to my grave never understanding how people can follow that dude.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:34 pm

Item 47 seems pretty relevant in the affadavit. This wasn't some fishing expedition.

Edit: The misspellings are a copy/paste artifact of unknown origin. Weird.

From May 16-18, 2022, FBI agents conducted a prelimina1y review of the
FIFTEEN BOXES provided to NARA and identified documents with classification markings in
fourteen of the FIFTEEN BOXES. A prelin1ina1y triage of the documents with classification
markings revealed the following approximate numbers: 184 unique docmnents bearing
classification markings, including 67 documents marked as CONFIDENTIAL, 92 documents
marked as SECRET, and 25 documents marked as TOP SECRET. Fm1her, the FBI agents
observed markings reflecting the following compa11ments/dissemination controls: HCS, FISA,
ORCON, NOFORN, and SI. Based on my training and experience, I know that documents
classified at these levels typically contain NDI. Several of the documents also contained what
appears to be FPOTUS 's handwritten notes.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:13 pm

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:14 pm

malchior wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:34 pm Several of the documents also contained what
appears to be FPOTUS 's handwritten notes.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:29 pm

From Popehat

Just a reminder that a lot of crimey-sounding language in search warrant documents represents boilerplate and terms of art and does not necessarily carry all the meaning you want to give it.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:53 pm

Why did they blank out Melania’s name so many times?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:48 pm

Oh look more corrupt judicial interference. I'm so shocked...

Edit: This likely doesn't mean much but it is just really frustrating to hear how we are a nation of laws then see this over and over and over and over...

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:45 pm

On the other hand…

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:24 pm

It is almost if people are sick of all the excuses we are hearing.

Edit: I've seen a few more people talk about this tonight. There has been a fairly steady chorus of lawsplainers all talking about how odd and unusual this event is putting aside it mostly doesn't matter. For example, here is Andrew Weissman asking some fundamental questions such as why does the judge indicate they are leaning Special Master when the DOJ hasn't even been served with the action or weighed in at all.

A few other lawyers asked a series of fundamental questions. What is the federally recognized cause of action? Why did the judge seem to overlook that DOJ wasn't served (Trump's lawyers admitted to it in their filings)? What authority does the judge claim to be wielding to intervene in another judge's case? And on and on. It's just dysfunction on parade and a further indicator that our legal system has major problems dealing with Trump.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:37 am

DOJ response is something. This whole situation is through-the-looking-glass stuff.

Classified docs commingled with framed TIME covers and Trump's passports. Pretty clearly dashes the 'Trump can't be expected to know what's in every dusty corner of MAL' argument.

The FBI turned up reams of classified docs in a short search. Strongly suggests that Trump's team didn't actually conduct a diligent search. Whichever lawyer signed that affidavit is going to have a very bad month.

This is yet another case where whatever Team MAGA is bitching about (her EMAILS!), they are doing fffaaaaarrrrr worse.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:15 am

I listened to Fed's podcast and he joined a chorus of sorts that said it was likely the DOJ would take the Trump filing as an opportunity to explain its case. It did and really laid out the sweep of it. The government was able to tell the story in the blacked out part of the affidavit in a way that protects their investigation. Importantly we learn that Trump's team originally produced 15 boxes after a year long fight with NARA about Presidential records. In any case, Trump's crack team brought the FBI to the storage room, the FBI saw 38 classified documents in the 15 boxes, and then were barred from looking in other boxes/containers in the room when they naturally looked at the ceiling because it was so much worse than they thought. The filing also explains in the abstract that they were able to develop evidence that classified documents were removed from the storage room and stored in other locations. They also believed it was likely that they were being obstructed in their investigation. This became the basis for the search warrant.

Zaxxon wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:37 am DOJ response is something. This whole situation is through-the-looking-glass stuff.

It's so much worse than I thought. This is probably worse than anyone thought. I am going to hazard a strong guess that this is amongst the worst national security spills ever in potential scope. It probably involved secrets in many areas. The previous accounts talked about 15 boxes with 38 classified documents. The government says they seized 33 items/boxes of material. They took 3 classified documents from desks in Trump's office. 13 of the other boxes in the storage room contained over one hundred unique classified documents. I could only imagine a SNL sketch of this would have a beleaguered Giuliani yelling 'DEAR GOD DON'T LOOK IN THAT BOX!' for the original visit and then cut to the search where they open a box and it contains Giuliani inside the box clutching a document labeled 'LAUNCH CODES' on it. This is bag of cats level insane.

The whole thing is crazy. Through-the-looking-glass is right. The documents had color coded cover sheets as is intentional to prevent spills. I was trained in this (I've never held a classification) but worked in facilities where I might accidentally find them. I could have done this job better! His legal team didn't open the boxes a few feet away to see if the obviously color coded cover sheets were visible!? You could have assigned the sorting task to a child. They're all fucking morons.

Now the US government has to probably conduct the biggest national security spill investigation in decades to figure out how much damage has been done to national security. Some very respectable people thought there should be an indictment just based on what we knew and we now know we were only scratching the surface.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:02 am

The "talk to Trump like he's a kindergartner" woman is brilliant.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:18 am

I am enjoying her videos but it also makes my stomach sink. It really highlights how absurd everything is. This country is at one of its lowest modern moments right now. Unable to apparently deal with a bumbling moron and a populace that is openly idiotic and unmanageable. And this insanity has global stakes.

You have to imagine foreign nations are look at us and wondering how much damage has been done to them. Behind the scenes there probably is a clamor for answers right now. People's lives might very well be at risk here. This also comes on the back of a very bad couple of years where the CIA has been losing foreign assets at an accelerated rate and is worried about protecting human intelligence assets. I'm not saying that's necessarily at risk but *we don't know how bad it is*. This is especially important when you consider that we don't want to lose capability. For example how impressive our intelligence on the Russian invasion turned out to be. We're in more danger right now because of Trump. He has to be held accountable even if just to prove we're still a serious nation.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:25 am

It makes me feel like all the people I despised in high school - the bullies, the slack-offs that not only ignored the opportunity of an education but actively opposed it - that they ultimately won. We've reached a point where ignorance is not just tolerated, it's actively *celebrated." Where selfishness , vindictiveness, and cruelty have been flipped to be virtues and not vices.

I mean think about it - "woke" i.e. being tolerant and inclusive of other races, genders, etc. has now become a dirty word. I used to be picked on mercilessly in school for wanting to make good grades and go to college. For wanting to follow the rules, do the extra credit. Are we any less ridiculed today for wanting to do the right thing, by the same assholes that did it back then?

And I don't think it's because a bunch of people suddenly became that way. I think it's because the people who were already that way realized the rest of the populace was too apathetic to counter it.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:32 am

malchior wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:18 am I am enjoying her videos but it also makes my stomach sink. It really highlights how absurd everything is. This country is at one of its lowest modern moments right now. Unable to apparently deal with a bumbling moron and a populace that is openly idiotic and unmanageable. And this insanity has global stakes.

You have to imagine foreign nations are look at us and wondering how much damage has been done to them. Behind the scenes there probably is a clamor for answers right now. People's lives might very well be at risk here. This also comes on the back of a very bad couple of years where the CIA has been losing foreign assets at an accelerated rate and is worried about protecting human intelligence assets. I'm not saying that's necessarily at risk but *we don't know how bad it is*. This is especially important when you consider that we don't want to lose capability. For example how impressive our intelligence on the Russian invasion turned out to be. We're in more danger right now because of Trump. He has to be held accountable even if just to prove we're still a serious nation.

Yup. And also, even if no foreign assets were exposed as a result of this, who is going to be willing to sign up to help U.S. intelligence going forward regardless? What foreign intelligence agency is going to be willing to share sensitive secrets?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:35 am

YellowKing wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:25 am It makes me feel like all the people I despised in high school - the bullies, the slack-offs that not only ignored the opportunity of an education but actively opposed it - that they ultimately won. We've reached a point where ignorance is not just tolerated, it's actively *celebrated." Where selfishness , vindictiveness, and cruelty have been flipped to be virtues and not vices.

I mean think about it - "woke" i.e. being tolerant and inclusive of other races, genders, etc. has now become a dirty word. I used to be picked on mercilessly in school for wanting to make good grades and go to college. For wanting to follow the rules, do the extra credit. Are we any less ridiculed today for wanting to do the right thing, by the same assholes that did it back then?

And I don't think it's because a bunch of people suddenly became that way. I think it's because the people who were already that way realized the rest of the populace was too apathetic to counter it.

I'm with it up to the apathetic part. I think we're facing a structural constitutional issue. The people aren't necessarily apathetic -- though it is mixed in there -- but they turned out in record numbers to vote for Democrats in 2008/2010/2018/2020. And each time they got a barely functional government out of it.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:48 am

YellowKing wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:25 am It makes me feel like all the people I despised in high school - the bullies, the slack-offs that not only ignored the opportunity of an education but actively opposed it - that they ultimately won. We've reached a point where ignorance is not just tolerated, it's actively *celebrated." Where selfishness , vindictiveness, and cruelty have been flipped to be virtues and not vices.

I mean think about it - "woke" i.e. being tolerant and inclusive of other races, genders, etc. has now become a dirty word. I used to be picked on mercilessly in school for wanting to make good grades and go to college. For wanting to follow the rules, do the extra credit. Are we any less ridiculed today for wanting to do the right thing, by the same assholes that did it back then?

And I don't think it's because a bunch of people suddenly became that way. I think it's because the people who were already that way realized the rest of the populace was too apathetic to counter it.

They were handed a king, and the media supported his legitimacy.