Wow, all I can really say...

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Darkfyre
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Wow, all I can really say...

Post by Darkfyre »

So, apparently the ESRB decided to pull GTA: San Andreas for PC and consoles off the shelf. All I can say is that I am stunned, regardlss of the public outcrys that have happened in the past I would have NEVER expected the ESRB to do this.
Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. (NASDAQ: TTWO - News) announced today that the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) has changed the rating of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas on all platforms from “Mature 17+” (M) to “Adults Only 18+” (AO) because of the so-called “hot coffee mod,” an unauthorized third party modification that alters the retail version of the game. Take-Two cooperated fully with the ESRB’s investigation.

Rockstar Games has ceased manufacturing of the current version of the title and will begin working on a version of the game with enhanced security to prevent the “hot coffee” modifications. This version will retain the original ESRB M-rating and is expected to be available during the Company’s fourth fiscal quarter. Rockstar Games will be providing AO labels for retailers who wish to continue to sell the current version of the title.

As a result of the re-rating of the game, Take-Two is lowering guidance for the third fiscal quarter ending July 31, 2005 to $160 to $170 million in net sales and a net loss per share of $(0.40) to $(0.45) to provide reserves for the value of the title’s current North American retail inventory. Accordingly, guidance for the fiscal year ending October 31, 2005 is also being lowered to $1.26 to $1.31 billion in net sales and $1.05 to $1.12 in diluted earnings per share.

“Take-Two and Rockstar Games have always worked to keep mature-themed video game content out of the hands of children and we will continue to work closely with the ESRB and community leaders to improve and better promote a reliable rating system to help consumers make informed choices about which video games are appropriate for each individual,” said Paul Eibeler, Take-Two’s President and Chief Executive Officer. “The ESRB’s decision to re-rate a game based on an unauthorized third party modification presents a new challenge for parents, the interactive entertainment industry and anyone who distributes or consumes digital content. Rockstar Games is pleased that the investigation is now settled and they look forward to returning their focus to making innovative and groundbreaking video games for a mature audience.”

The scenes depicted in the “hot coffee” modification are not playable in the retail version of the game unless the user downloads and/or installs unauthorized software that alters the content of the original retail version of the title, representing a violation of Take-Two and Rockstar’s end user license agreement (EULA) and intellectual property rights. “We are deeply concerned that the publicity surrounding these unauthorized modifications has caused the game to be misrepresented to the public and has detracted from the creative merits of this award winning product,” said Mr. Eibeler. Take-Two is exploring its legal options as it relates to companies that profited from creating and distributing tools for altering the content of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

Rockstar Games will be making available shortly a downloadable software patch to render Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for PC impervious to the “hot coffee” modification. Rockstar encourages parent groups and political leaders to assist with distribution of the patch to prevent the content of the modification from spreading further.
Cheers,

Darkfyre
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Cylus Maxii
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Post by Cylus Maxii »

This granularity of argument/rating is just absurd.

I can't imagine a situation in which I'd be OK with my my 17-year old playing a game that depicted gang violence and crime sprees, but just had to draw the line when graphic sex entered the picture. Geez!

I think the entire genre is way out there, and I wouldn't let my children play a similar game no matter what it was rated. I'm not interested my self.

And who the hell thinks that anybody is enforcing game ratings? What a waste of effort. Just one more teeny-tiny step toward getting it banned. A hollow victory at best.
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Post by Peacedog »

I can't imagine a situation in which I'd be OK with my my 17-year old playing a game that depicted gang violence and crime sprees, but just had to draw the line when graphic sex entered the picture. Geez!
Point: it's more granular then this. After all, some light nudity is ok in an M game. Prolonged/violent nudity is not.
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Post by Stitch »

Cylus Maxii wrote:And who the hell thinks that anybody is enforcing game ratings? What a waste of effort. Just one more teeny-tiny step toward getting it banned. A hollow victory at best.
Think I'll gome home and waste some hookers in your honor 8)
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Andrew Wonser
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Post by Andrew Wonser »

So where we they with an AO when a whole host of other games that had "prolonged violence" were released. Personally this looks like the ESRB trying to cover their collective behinds. Who also wouldn't have even given a second glance at San Andreas, if it hadn't been used as a tactic by the news and the wonderful Mrs Clinton.
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Post by Fitzy »

Is this going to affect games that come with construction sets? There is some clearly AO material available for games like Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights, both of which are T rated I think. Or is it different since the "naughty" part was apparently included on the CD by the developers of GTA?
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Post by hitbyambulance »

am i the only one who finds the apparent definitions of 'adult' and 'mature,' as used in the above press statement, hilarious?

EDIT: apparently not - see the newest Penny Arcade editorial, which was, in part, about those selfsame semantics.
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Post by Kobra »

Nice, they just created a "Collectors" market for the pre-Adult versions..

LOL!
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Post by Kasey Chang »

Hmmm, that's exactly what I was gonna say: buy up the existing version quickly!
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Kobra
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Post by Kobra »

There will be a shortage of this game for awhile... I'm thinking it will at least double in price for that shortage time, and for the "Adult" version.

Its already starting, Gogamer is now saying:

Grand Theft Auto GTA GTASA San Andreas PC NEW
Get it Before Supply Runs Out Due to Rating Change!!!!
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Grifman
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Post by Grifman »

Rockstar was stupid, they knew they put it in the game, they knew modders would figure it out, then they lied about it, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. I feel no sympathy.
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Post by ImLawBoy »

Kasey Chang wrote:Hmmm, that's exactly what I was gonna say: buy up the existing version quickly!
I wasn't terribly interested in this game before, although I've heard it's an excellent game. This news, though, just caused me to head out looking for it. It was already off the shelves at Best Buy and Circuit City, but I found it at EB Games.

The weird thing is, I certainly didn't buy it for collector's edition status, because there are already enough copies out there that the market is full. I didn't buy it because I want porn, because . . . well . . . I've got access to the interweb. I didn't even buy it out of protest, because under the rules of the ESRB, it sounds like they're doing the right thing (my disagreement with those rules in general can be the subject of another discussion).

Oh, well. Like I said. I've heard it's an excellent game.
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Kobra
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Post by Kobra »

If I could be certain it would become a collectors item for people, i'd buy a couple hundred copies. But it is all a gamble I guess. A gamble I don't want to take given how many copies of it ALREADY sold..

There is a store selling it for $39 right now though, I might grab a few copies and shelve them for a couple months and see.
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Post by Freezer-TPF- »

Kobra wrote:There will be a shortage of this game for awhile... I'm thinking it will at least double in price for that shortage time, and for the "Adult" version.

Its already starting, Gogamer is now saying:

Grand Theft Auto GTA GTASA San Andreas PC NEW
Get it Before Supply Runs Out Due to Rating Change!!!!
Where is Gogamer saying that?
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Post by Freezer-TPF- »

Anyway, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Most stores will pull it until the redacted version comes out, but most folks who really wanted to play the game have already bought it.

I will say that the idea of parents suddenly becoming concerned and downloading the patch to wreck the sex mod on their kid's GTA game is kind of amusing.
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Kobra
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Post by Kobra »

Freezer-TPF- wrote:
Kobra wrote:There will be a shortage of this game for awhile... I'm thinking it will at least double in price for that shortage time, and for the "Adult" version.

Its already starting, Gogamer is now saying:

Grand Theft Auto GTA GTASA San Andreas PC NEW
Get it Before Supply Runs Out Due to Rating Change!!!!
Where is Gogamer saying that?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 62053&rd=1
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Post by Papageno »

Woohoo, I've got 2, count 'em, 2 copies of the "naughty" version, one for the PS2 and one for the PC. :roll:
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Post by Kobra »

Walmart still has them on shelf, but when you take them up front and the cashier tries to scan them, it says "See manager", and the manager comes and takes them away. Happened to my friend an hour ago.

I just ordered 10 copies of the porn version from Amazon for $39 each. I'll sit on them a month and see if they go up. A good friend of mine is even crazier than me, he just purchased 35 of them.
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Post by Papageno »

Wow, you must really be confident that the price on these will go up. I think most folks would actually prefer actual porn if they go for that sort of thing.
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Kobra
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Post by Kobra »

Supply and demand. They are stopping production at least until the next quarter. 10 isn't being too confident. If I was really confident, i'd of purchased 100-500 or so. :P

Basically i'm making a play on the idea people might want to "Collect" the porn version, and they will become harder to find, making supplies lower, and the price higher. But $39 is a good price at any rate, I should be able to recover than and some regardless.
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Post by Blackhawk »

It is an idiotic decsion that strikes me as the ESRB trying to cover their political asses. Unavailable, encoded content hidden on a disk isn't 'part of the game'. Making Rockstar/TT responsible for third party alterations is ridiculous.

Similar case - Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. The game wanted a 'Teen' rating, so they removed blood - there is no blood in the game, or in either expansion. Within a week of release, modders had created patches that added blood spray, blood pooling, and 'dead skins' to the game, in effect pushing the content past the 'Teen' rating on the box. If you take the time to think about it, you can certainly come up with scads of other games that have been modified by third parties to exceed their ratings. Hell, google Nude Raider sometime.

My real fear is that this will cause companies to encode/secure their content in such a way so as to prevent or discourage modification. That would be a nasty, nasty blow to the PC game industry.
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Post by hitbyambulance »

who 'reported' this to the media, anyways? some 'concerned' gamers? a few anonymous tips? pranksters, anticipating the media blood frenzy? a mom walking into their 12 year old's bedroom playing the unlocked content?
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Post by docvego »

hitbyambulance wrote:who 'reported' this to the media, anyways? some 'concerned' gamers? a few anonymous tips? pranksters, anticipating the media blood frenzy? a mom walking into their 12 year old's bedroom playing the unlocked content?
Hillary walked in on Bill playing it. :roll:

...anyway, I wound up being totally wrong with this mess when it started, so maybe I'm still going to be wrong, but here is my List of:

GTA:SA Winners and Losers

Hillary 'Your Other Mom' Clinton: Winner - now a champion of saving the children
Teh Media: Winner - Helps remind parents that watching them is better than paying attention to what your kids do.
ESRB: Winner - Complying with the rating change should ease pressure on the passing of Federal Regulations.
Video Game Retailers: Winner - Because of above, hopefully your local gamestore manager dosen't have to worry about getting a $5,000 fine because one of his new hires sold Half-Life 2 to a 16 year old.
Parents: Winner - Now they can feel less guilty about ignoring your kids.
Kids: ?- Goodbye CJ, Hello JENNA!
PC Game Modders: ? - I *really* hope Blackhawk isn't right about developers wanting to make their games less mod friendly. If it happened, modders would easily be the biggest losers. However, since it sounds like this was a case of 'unlocked content' and not a 'from scratch' mod. Maybe we'll be okay.
Rockstar: Winner They just made a shitload of money thanks to all the free publicity. Sure, their sales might get screwed up while they have a shortage, but when it is all said and done, they're going to have sold a hell of a lot more copies of the game than if it wasn't for Hillary. I wonder if they're a campaign contributer? :D
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Post by Carpet_pissr »

Cylus Maxii wrote:
I can't imagine a situation in which I'd be OK with my my 17-year old playing a game that depicted gang violence and crime sprees, but just had to draw the line when graphic sex entered the picture. Geez!
Welcome to neo-America.

These are the days of covering romanesque STATUES with clothes because they showed a bare breast.

The days when a little NIPPLAGE on live TV causes a national uproar.

Guns? No problem. We likes our guns. Guns are good (and they don't kill people, people kill people (with guns)

Violence? No problem

NUDITY? You better call your lawyer, because SOMEBODY's ass is going to get sued/and or FCC'd.

HELLO!?!?!? ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM ALERT!!!! If legislators and/or some ratings board looks at this game and thinks it should have a more "mature" rating because of some POTENTIAL third party sex mod, we are all in serious trouble. How about them ROCKET LAUNCHERS you can use to blow up cops good? Or the carjackings, or running over people, etc. I don't even own the game, but I do have Vice City, and I am just assuming it's a little more hard core in terms of violence (could be wrong)

I personally don't even think the uber violence in the game is anything to be concerned about if it's properly marked as ADULT ONLY and if parents would be responsible enough to monitor what lil Johnny is playing. This is not a game for kids, period.

It's just like X rated or NC-17 movies - NOT FOR KIDS, umkay??

/rant
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Post by Big Jake »

Grifman, I'm surprised at your post. If you think Rockstar alone is going to suffer for this, you must have not been paying attention. Oh no, the moralists in this fucked society of ours are going to go after EVERY game company. I'm not being alarmist when I say, Lieberman, Clinton, etc think only Hello Kitty Roller Rescue games should be made. And the morons at Rockstar made it possible. They developed the content in question, and left it in there (even if inert) in the first place.

I'm not arguing what is right, everyone, just what has historically happened. Hillary wins HUGE with this, and if you people think the totalitarianism of the Bush Moral Regency was bad, wait 'til you see the next one with the Supreme Mom ruling over all of us, 'for the good of the children'. (Ps - Neither party is right - they're both abominations that exist to oppress any human beings.)
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Post by Big Jake »

And to clarify - I'm not angry at you girfman, just the knee jerk reaction that know is coming. Remember, I live in the state that had a lawmaker state that games are neither 'media nor art'. We live in a nation of evil imbeciles, who are more concerned anout what others are doing than enlightening their mind.
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Post by mathfed »

I'm not so sure Hilary will come out ahead because of this. In my eyes, she just made herself the new Tipper Gore. Al didn't get my vote for prez because of who he is married to and his running mate. I just couldn't stomach Tipper and Lieberman in the White House. This is likely just an attempt by Hilary to be a bit less polarizing. I still think there is no chance in hell of her winning the White House.

Rock * should have known better. The envelope has been pushed to a ridiculous level with some of this stuff. Janet Jackson was really the powder keg that started the backlash. I sort-of understand that backlash. Entertainment has become more and more sexually oriented to the point that "sex sells" has almost been changed to "sell sex". The limits of good taste have been stretched and stretched. Janet's desperate grab at relevance resulted in a lot of people shouting ENOUGH!!! We are in the backlash now. Howard Stern is sniveling, taking his ball, and going home. Rock* gets smacked down for basically having porn buried in their game. I'm not even a conservative, and I think they are idiots for leaving that stuff in there just due to the political climate these days. Now, the PC gaming industry is going to suffer because Rock* just became the Janet of the gaming world.
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Post by Grifman »

Big Jake wrote:And to clarify - I'm not angry at you girfman, just the knee jerk reaction that know is coming. Remember, I live in the state that had a lawmaker state that games are neither 'media nor art'. We live in a nation of evil imbeciles, who are more concerned anout what others are doing than enlightening their mind.
No sweat, I didn't take it that way. Frankly, IMO, the sex in one sense doesn't bother me. The game even without the sex should only be played by adults because of it's violence and the way that violence is carried out - as a gang member, glorifing that lifestyle. It glorifies a criminal way of life. Rockstar has every right to make any game, but they won't get my money. Unfortunately they will get alot of money from others.

That said, anyone is naive if they think Rockstar didn't do this intentionally. They know people are going to look inside a game and they knew this would be found and implemented. This was a way to follow the letter of the law while ignoring it's spirit. They get a little controversy, get some street cred for their next game.

I wouldn't worry about one lawmaker or even several - or even Hillary Clinton for that matter :) Censorship by the state is still illegal - if games were ever banned, does anyone really think this would stand a court challenge? I'm not aiming this at you, but people whine about supposed censorship/regulation of gaming like they do about the "death of PC gaming". Ain't going to happen. If violent slasher porn legally is available, does anyone really think games with animated violence and sex are going to be banned? Gamers have just as much of a kneejerk reaction as the critics of games - that's what's so funny.
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Post by Zitterbacke »

Thought a statistical approach might make things clearer (or not):

http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/violence.htm

I don't have the time to check (or even find) the diagrams on the original pages to verifiy the conclusions, but they go conform with my own.

Just take 6 Billion people (roundabout).
One will be sick (at least).
He/she has a gun (you can buy them easy over there, right?).
He/she kills someone (not too uncommon, no reason for mentioning on TV, if not especially brutal).
He/she had a computer (erm, one of this mystical devices nobody understands?).
For E-mail (how about good old pen & paper?).
Maybe gameing (Wait! Thats so sick! Shooting at mindless pixelpacks looking like humans!)
Oh! Gameing! Thats it! The very reason this all happend!
...
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Post by Zurai »

Blackhawk wrote:It is an idiotic decsion that strikes me as the ESRB trying to cover their political asses. Unavailable, encoded content hidden on a disk isn't 'part of the game'. Making Rockstar/TT responsible for third party alterations is ridiculous.
They aren't making Rockstar responsible for third party alterations. They're making Rocktar responsible for shipping a fully implemented, modeled, and animated sex minigame in a game rated M. I gaurantee the extent of the 'mod' is making a bool go from false to true. The painfully obvious intent of Rockstar was that this would happen and they'd have released the content without having to pay the piper in the form of rating. If they didn't want the content released, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE PUT IT ON THE CD.
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Post by Kaigen »

End of line.
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Post by Octavious »

Lets find this guy and kill him... It might be worth doing the time for... ;)
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Ernest
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Re: Wow, all I can really say...

Post by Ernest »

Darkfyre wrote:So, apparently the ESRB decided to pull GTA: San Andreas for PC and consoles off the shelf. All I can say is that I am stunned, regardlss of the public outcrys that have happened in the past I would have NEVER expected the ESRB to do this.
Not to be difficult, but the ESRB doesn't have the authority to do this. It's an industry organization whose sole purpose is to rate games.

Instead, it was the retailers who pulled the game in response to the ESRB's change to the game's rating.

Ultimately, at some level probably we should hold Rockstar accountable too. It's surprising that a multimillion dollar entertainment company would leave content on a disc like what was lurking within GTA:SA. A similar situation would be, hm, if one of the Harry Potter dvds included an easter egg of one of the teachers going down on another. Or some such. I.e., not obscene, not necessarily even offensive to the vast majority of customers, just stupid.
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