The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:52 pm

Yeah, your mask protects others. It offers some protection from others but less than if they're properly masked instead.

It stops some incoming but more outgoing.

So ironically, the immunocompromised person on the train wearing a mask is limiting your risk more than their own.

Of course if they're the only one masked, they have slightly better protection you do from a third person.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:45 pm Not even sure what those are called, but I assume they are some better version of what was available when the pandemic first broke out (which I guess was N95 and the ugly duck billed ones)

I'd have to see it, but there are a few different style masks. I'm currently using (and have settled on) a KF94 that I add an optional clip to around the back of my head that tightens it down to my face (effectively making it more like an N95). I like the style and it seems to fit my face best. but in terms of comfort the 3M Aura and Gerson n95 masks (that is a duckbill) are also insanely comfortable.

And yes, to get back to the person on the train, we've effectively said one-way masking is the best we're ever going to get - which puts people that need protection the most at increased risk because short of a SCBA, there are even limits to the n95 in an environment that is potentially overloaded with the virus (like a train or a bus).

Again, we need to move away from binary - everyone in n95 vs no one wearing a mask. It would be significantly better if everyone would wear *any* type of face covering. But instead there's outright refusal to do anything to help.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:25 pm

And amazingly, sometimes the algorithm gets it right

https://twitter.com/NjbBari3/status/1572956835111665664

So, we know covid is bad for us.

We know how to control it…

We know not controlling it will hit the most vulnerable people the hardest…

So the world doesn’t need a doctor at this point… it needs ethical/spiritual guidance.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am

stessier wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:35 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:29 pm Educate me about current thoughts on mask effectiveness. In that last example, is the effectively masked cancer patient not protected on a train of unmasked (bandits)?

Looking at that, I think it is stupid for selfish people who don't want to wear masks to encourage other to not wearing masks. If I don't like to wear masks, I'll encourage people to wear it so I'll be safer.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:55 am

Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am If I don't like to wear masks, I'll encourage people to wear it so I'll be safer.

Ahh, the ol' "I don't want to wear masks, but you should" angle.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:14 am

Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am
stessier wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:35 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:29 pm Educate me about current thoughts on mask effectiveness. In that last example, is the effectively masked cancer patient not protected on a train of unmasked (bandits)?

Looking at that, I think it is stupid for selfish people who don't want to wear masks to encourage other to not wearing masks. If I don't like to wear masks, I'll encourage people to wear it so I'll be safer.

Except if you (the non-masker) is the one who is sick, everyone else is kinda screwed.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:41 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:29 pm Educate me about current thoughts on mask effectiveness. In that last example, is the effectively masked cancer patient not protected on a train of unmasked (bandits)?

No mask is going to be 100% effective - there's always going to be some risk when there's exposure to covid. The most effective mask would be the n95s (provided that they are: genuine n95s not counterfeits, they are the proper size/fit for your face, they are worn properly, and they haven't been used to the point where it's fit/seal or electrostatic charge is compromised).

Here are some studies:

A study from Tokyo tested how well different types of masks protected the wearer from actual coronavirus particles. The study showed that even a simple cotton mask offered some protection (17 percent to 27 percent) to the wearer. Medical masks performed better, including a surgical mask (47 percent to 50 percent protection), a loosefitting N95 (57 percent to 86 percent protection) and a tightly sealed N95 (79 percent to 90 percent protection).

While many lab studies test masks using mannequin heads, a 2008 study used real people to measure how well masks could protect the wearer against a respiratory virus. The study subjects wore different kinds of masks fitted with special receptors that could measure particle concentration on both sides of the masks. In this study, cloth masks reduced exposure by 60 percent, surgical masks by 76 percent and N95 masks by 99 percent.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/covid-m ... stats.html

In fact, N95 and KN95 masks were found to be 48% more effective than surgical or cloth masks, according to a CDC study. Wearing an N95 or KN95 mask reduces the odds of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 by 83%.

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-car ... -n95-masks

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:48 am

stessier wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:14 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:22 am
stessier wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:35 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:29 pm Educate me about current thoughts on mask effectiveness. In that last example, is the effectively masked cancer patient not protected on a train of unmasked (bandits)?

Looking at that, I think it is stupid for selfish people who don't want to wear masks to encourage other to not wearing masks. If I don't like to wear masks, I'll encourage people to wear it so I'll be safer.
Except if you (the non-masker) is the one who is sick, everyone else is kinda screwed.

He did say "selfish people."

What someone needs to do is make a game. You're on a train, there are X number of infected people, x number of masks, x immunocompromised, etc. You get to place the masks on different people and see the various outcomes. Change the variables around to get an idea of how it works.

Kind of like Girls Live Robots or those other programatic games.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:48 pm

CDC drops some great info on a Friday afternoon for hospitals:

Updated circumstances when universal use of personal protective equipment should be considered

When SARS-CoV-2 Community Transmission levels are not high, healthcare facilities could choose not to require universal source control.

EDIT: Damn confusing maps

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:18 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:45 pm Not even sure what those are called, but I assume they are some better version of what was available when the pandemic first broke out (which I guess was N95 and the ugly duck billed ones)
I'd have to see it, but there are a few different style masks. I'm currently using (and have settled on) a KF94 that I add an optional clip to around the back of my head that tightens it down to my face (effectively making it more like an N95). I like the style and it seems to fit my face best. but in terms of comfort the 3M Aura and Gerson n95 masks (that is a duckbill) are also insanely comfortable.

Just looked, the ones I bought recently are also KF94.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:56 pm

Pfizer CEO tests positive for COVID, which really isn't news, but this:

Bourla, 60, back in August had contacted COVID and had started a course of the company's oral COVID-19 antiviral treatment, Paxlovid.

Twice in ~5 weeks? That's the news.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:05 pm

Interesting study published looking at mortality rates and mask requirements around the globe back in the early days of the pandemic in 2020:

In a retrospective cohort study, changes in COVID-19‒related daily mortality rate per million population from February 15 to May 31, 2020 were compared between 27 countries with and 17 countries without face mask mandates in nearly 1 billion (911,446,220 total) people. Longitudinal mixed effect modeling was applied and adjusted for over 10 relevant demographic, social, clinical, and time-dependent confounders.

Average COVID-19 mortality per million was 288.54 in countries without face mask policies and 48.40 in countries with face mask policies. In no mask countries, adjusted average daily increase was 0.1553 − 0.0017 X (days since the first case) log deaths per million, compared with 0.0900 − 0.0009 X (days since the first case) log deaths per million in the countries with a mandate. A total of 60 days into the pandemic, countries without face mask mandates had an average daily increase of 0.0533 deaths per million, compared with the average daily increase of 0.0360 deaths per million for countries with face mask mandates.

Yeah, but what does that mean?

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1574922349345898496

No big deal, just an 80% reduction in per capita covid death in countries that had mask policies.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:03 pm

mAsKS dOn'T wOrK!1!

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:06 pm

Would be interesting to see a similar study using vaccinated individuals. Or at least on a post-vaccination-availability populace.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:17 pm

I'm sure we'll get there, but the data on masks and mask policies is much easier to collect - along with the gigantic pool of countries and people using them (or that were). Consider that globally there's still somewhere around 2.5 billion (plus or minus) people that have yet to receive a single vaccine. But masks? They're much cheaper, easier to distribute and use (unless they violate deeply held beliefs on freedom).

As was pointed out (again) to me today, currently the TV and Film industry has better Covid-19 protections in place than most businesses, schools, hospitals and nursing homes. It's mind boggling.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:48 pm

I have a not great story to share. All I can say is, JFC:

An immunocompromised man in Thunder Bay, Ont., who feared the consequences of relaxed public health measures died last month after testing positive for COVID-19.

Joe Lunn, a heart transplant recipient, told CBC News in March that he was worried about the Ontario government's decision to do away with vaccine certificates in public places.

He had also expressed concerns about its plans to end mask mandates, saying he felt safer in public when others were also taking precautions against spreading the virus.

"I have fought too hard to stay alive to give up because you feel inconvenienced by a four-by-four inch cloth," he said at the time.

I'm not sharing to be sensationalist or cause fear. Instead, I'm sharing because the decisions we collectively make as a society impact individuals in our communities - whether we want to admit it or not. This is beyond depressing, but putting an actual name and face to the impact might make the difference somewhere.

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:04 am

Do not love that Evusheld prophylaxis is defeated in upcoming variants.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:47 pm

I was in an office supply store today. All of their masks, hand sanitizer, and other COVID related items (like signs) were in the clearance section. I mean, why not? It's over.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:22 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:47 pm I was in an office supply store today. All of their masks, hand sanitizer, and other COVID related items (like signs) were in the clearance section. I mean, why not? It's over.

A few weeks ago I filled a shopping bag with hand soap and sanitizer that was marked down to $0.05 per bottle. I'm a hand sanitizer mogul now.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:13 pm

Just be aware of the shelf life.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:32 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:13 pm Just be aware of the shelf life.

It's great for removing labels/adhesive reside and cleaning glass. Even after it expires. (Hand sanitizer, that is).

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:36 pm

I suppose it would be - I usually cover the label with a paper towel soaked in alcohol for a few minutes myself, likely for exactly the same reason.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:38 am

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:47 pm I was in an office supply store today. All of their masks, hand sanitizer, and other COVID related items (like signs) were in the clearance section. I mean, why not? It's over.

I'd like to find masks in the clearance sections. Masks went out of vogue for sale over a year ago and I'm not a big fan of ordering online.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:55 am

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:13 pm Just be aware of the shelf life.

If it goes bad I'm out a buck.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:33 am

Not overtly political, but in truth it's absolutely political. No one cares and the government isn't in the vaccination business anymore. We've outsourced public health to private companies.

https://twitter.com/joshmich/status/1575841485014323201

Starting to get a sense of the public's understanding of, and demand for, the new bivalent Covid booster:

-1/2 of adults have heard little or nothing about the new booster

-4 in 10 fully vaccinated adults not sure if CDC recommends the booster for them

This is...terrible.

If you dig deeper:

On a positive note, 8% of adults 65+ say they got the booster in (approx) 3 weeks since its release, and close to 40% more say they plan to get it as soon as possible. The groups among fully vaccinated adults most likely to express they aren’t sure if the bivalent booster is recommended for them include: rural residents (54%), Hispanic adults (51%), and those without a college degree (49%).

“America is not rushing out to get the new booster. Most are only dimly aware of it, which is not surprising in a country that seems to have mostly moved on…The exception may be older folks, who are at greater risk and more interested”

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:29 am

-4 in 10 fully vaccinated adults not sure if CDC recommends the booster for them

Until a few days ago, the Indiana vaccine website for scheduling boosters still required you to acknowledge that you were immune-compromised in order to schedule a booster. I eventually gave up and did an end run around the 'vaccine portal' to get ours scheduled.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:43 am

I work for a freaking hospital and had no clue the new booster was out. Or if I was eligible.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:48 am

My wife and I got our new booster this past Wednesday, but, honestly, I wasn’t sure we were eligible. I think she thought the same thing and was pleasantly surprised when we were able to make appointments to get it. But it wasn’t available at any of the usual places we have gone for boosters or vaccines previously. Not available at CVS or Walgreens or the Safeway pharmacy. The only place around us that had it was a Target in an adjacent town.

Terrible messaging and a completely unacceptable roll out.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:05 pm

I'm not sure what the final numbers are yet, but the U.S. had somewhere north of 13.5K COVID deaths for September - somewhere close to a 9/11 event every week. Won't surprise me if final tallies (probably some time next week) have it over 20K.

And Congress can't approve funding because it's being downplayed and minimized.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:20 pm

It’s time we start to realize that 9/11 really wasn’t that big a deal.

I’m being facetious.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:25 pm

Unagi wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:20 pm It’s time we start to realize that 9/11 really wasn’t that big a deal.

I’m being facetious.

I think you have to average 9/11 and COVID out. For 9/11 the actual toll was small (though devastating at the time, of course). So we tossed our way of life around for 20+ years.

For COVID the toll is yuge, so we can't be bothered to do anything.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:36 pm

Yes, as has been repeatedly pointed out air travel is still impacted, namely the boarding process. And yet, no one screaming about freedoms over keeping shoes on or being able to take a Big Gulp on the plane.

Just saw this and I think it's absolutely correct. Also, I'm terminally cynical.

https://twitter.com/JReinerMD/status/15 ... 1749330945

The cynic in me believes the super quiet (silent) roll out of the booster campaign is an intentional strategy to pivot away from the politically inconvenient pandemic. Tell me why I’m wrong.

616 #covid19 deaths/day right now in the US — mostly age 65+.

The MOST EFFECTIVE TOOL for preventing death should they be infected? The #covid19 vaccine: an 89.6% in death with 2nd booster.

But only 40% of Americans age 65+ are fully boosted.
https://cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7139a2.htm

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:19 am

In sanity news for me, I don't watch the trackers so much any more so I'm pleasantly surprised that there have been "only" 85,000 COVID related deaths in the US in the last six months when we broke 1,000,000. For the first time since this whole thing began, it looks like the curve is flattened at 300-500 deaths a day. In state, we've been holding steady a 10-25 deaths a day with around 1000 people hospitalized and diagnosed with COVID heading in to cold weather...

I ate with 5 friends last week... at a restaurant... and hung out... for like 90 minutes... indoors... in public... with no mask... by my own choice. They drank beers. I almost did as well.

If I progress like this, Smoove and Max may be the last ones to turn the lights out.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:44 am

4 in 10 fully vaccinated adults not sure if CDC recommends the booster for them

Yet 9 out of 10 know that the mask mandate has been dropped across the board and are willing to fight hospital front desk personnel who ask them to wear a [free] mask.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:29 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:44 am
4 in 10 fully vaccinated adults not sure if CDC recommends the booster for them
Yet 9 out of 10 know that the mask mandate has been dropped across the board and are willing to fight hospital front desk personnel who ask them to wear a [free] mask.

Amazing, right*? The same group of people that will tell you the CDC is filled with war criminals and liars will quote you policy regarding masking and why they don't need to. Or that it's fine for them to be back in work.

*Not really amazing

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:33 am

During bad flu seasons on the oast we asked people to mask and no one ever had any problem with it. Now? Everyone's an infectious disease expert.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:40 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:33 am During bad flu seasons on the oast we asked people to mask and no one ever had any problem with it. Now? Everyone's an infectious disease expert.

This is why I often say we're a deeply unserious country. We are a nation of whiny soft adult-sized children who throw temper tantrums at slight inconveniences.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:43 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:33 am During bad flu seasons on the oast we asked people to mask and no one ever had any problem with it. Now? Everyone's an infectious disease expert.

Did we? Not sure who the "we" is, but pre-covid I'm not aware of anyone masking or being asked to mask. There was masking and mask requirements during the Spanish Flu, but that led to massive backlash then as well.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:46 am

Hospitals and doctor's offices asking people to mask during flu season; not the general public. The CDC quietly lowered the bar (again) last week for medical facilities and nursing homes - which the public magically knows about (but not getting boosters).

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:47 am

El Guapo wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:43 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:33 am During bad flu seasons on the oast we asked people to mask and no one ever had any problem with it. Now? Everyone's an infectious disease expert.
Did we? Not sure who the "we" is, but pre-covid I'm not aware of anyone masking or being asked to mask. There was masking and mask requirements during the Spanish Flu, but that led to massive backlash then as well.

When I worked in two different hospital systems in the 90s and about 8 years ago I (and patients) were at times asked to wear masks in patient areas during bad flu seasons. They also in the latter run marched us into conference rooms and massed immunized us. Either take the jab or clean out your desk. No one had melt downs.