While it's already been made official that Henry Cavill will no longer return as Superman in the DC of the future under James Gunn and Peter Safran, it has now been reported that cameos of Cavill and Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman have been cut from The Flash to make way for the studio's new direction.
As reported by THR, these moves indicate that Gunn and Safran are not going to simply play with the pieces already in play in the DCEU, but that they will be making a major shift as they steer this massive ship into uncharted waters.
This shift has already made waves in existing projects like The Flash thanks to Cavill's departure and the decision to not move forward with Patty Jenkins' most recent vision of Wonder Woman 3.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I don’t think it’s suicide. I mean, the patient was already pretty sick. There were a few signs of life here and there, but overall it wasn’t really healthy. I may disagree with dumping Cavill and a few other things, but I honestly can understand why.
Yeah, unfortunately I would tend to agree. The DC film universe has really never found its footing like Marvel, imho. Sure, some films and actors have been better than others, but it's been very inconsistent. The best thing might be for a reboot of sorts without any baggage attached to the existing actors. And Martha.
Yeah, as much as I liked the actors I don’t think you get someone like Gunn to take over and handcuff him to the train wreck that was already in place.
The only way any of this works is with a fresh start.
Just please no more origin stories for characters that have had the same story told multiple times by now. I don't mind when it is more obscure characters receiving the treatment, but for mainstream ones like WW or Superman....no thanks. The recent Batman did well to avoid the issue, and I thought was much better for it.
I have faith in Gunn, given SS and Guardians. But just hope he has the freedom to really make things work.
I just hope he doesn’t turn the entire brand into slapstick comedy or slapstick comedy adjacent though. I know he’s perfectly capable of making serious stuff, but so far his superhero stuff hasn’t really utilized that talent.
As a huge DC fan, I'm also totally on board with a revamp. Wonder Woman was a great movie, and gave me renewed hope for the DC cinematic universe. Wonder Woman 2 was a complete disaster that basically destroyed that hope. At *best* I think keeping the status quo would have resulted in a string of mediocre films with the occasional bright spot. Clearly that's not good enough when nearly every Marvel film is a blockbuster hit.
Jiffy wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:50 pm
Just please no more origin stories for characters that have had the same story told multiple times by now. I don't mind when it is more obscure characters receiving the treatment, but for mainstream ones like WW or Superman....no thanks.
Agreed. I think DC has had some sort of reboot syndrome for quite a while now. There are so many reboots of DC properties like Superman and Batman, and there are only so many times audiences need to see those stories. Incidentally, I think what made Wonder Woman so good, was that as far as I know, it hadn't been on the screen in so long and seeing an onscreen portrayal felt fresh.
What I'd like to see are one-offs. Movies that aren't connected to anything else, but can still be part of familiar properties, such as Batman in different eras, or a movie featuring Batman & Superman's first meeting. There's a lot they can do without necessarily having to reboot with origin stories.
He neither wrote nor directed that one, just a producer. But as I wrote, I know he’s capable of doing more than comedy. It’s just that all his DC and Marvel stuff so far has been decidedly comedic in nature. They’ve been great, don’t get me wrong. I just want a little more variety.
But he’s a great storyteller, so I’m sure I’m worried for no reason.
I think the only recent DC movie I had a strong amount of dislike for was WW2. That movie was fucking horrible - so much worse than I could have ever imagined it being. So, despite some flaws, I mostly liked the Synderverse and other movies. Pattinson's Batman was fine, but I am not going to lose any sleep over it if they reboot that too.
I think it probably makes sense to do the reboot, but I almost think they should wait at least 5 years to release any new movies. (More likely we may wait a couple years since they have to get busy casting/rebooting everything.)
The MCU seems to be losing its sizzle a bit (though I have still broadly enjoyed all of their recent stuff) so it might be a chance for DC to knock them off the throne. If I was Gunn, I would be backing up trucks of money to the Russo bothers to come in and be in charge of Batman, Superman, or both.
I can't help but wonder if both Marvel and DC are just going to have to take a long break from movies at some point and let super hero fatigue wear off.
Black Lives Matter
"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." - The 4th Doctor
WW2 had a long way to go before I'd call it truly horrible. I just found it mediocre at best. It felt like a return to form for DC films...which isn't a compliment.
I have to wonder also if the superhero bubble is going to break anytime soon. I mean, we're getting 3 or 4 (sometimes more) big budget superhero films a year at this point. Can that be sustainable?
hepcat wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:35 pm
WW2 had a long way to go before I'd call it truly horrible. I just found it mediocre at best. It felt like a return to form for DC films...which isn't a compliment.
I have to wonder also if the superhero bubble is going to break anytime soon. I mean, we're getting 3 or 4 (sometimes more) big budget superhero films a year at this point. Can that be sustainable?
I don't see the Triple P franchise as a superhero franchise though. It's more akin to Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. It will resonate with art house fans AND superhero fans alike. In my spec script notes, I've listed the directors I think would work well with my vision. Scorsese is my top pick. But Uwe Boll might work too.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
hepcat wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:35 pm
I have to wonder also if the superhero bubble is going to break anytime soon. I mean, we're getting 3 or 4 (sometimes more) big budget superhero films a year at this point. Can that be sustainable?
I've been wondering about that for a long time too. I mean, I'm sure it's good for the theatres as it brings people in, but everything comes in trends, and we've been on that trend for at least a decade or more now. I don't pay attention to Marvel as much as I used to anymore, and I think the last one I saw in the theatre was the first Black Panther. On the DC side of things, it was the first Wonder Woman.
I... liked the Snyderverse. Ish. Sorta. I think that after years of Marvel fans being all wide-eyed and smiles at their characters portrayed so well on screen, I just want to see my characters given the same treatment, and the Snyderverse was what I had to settle for. And those sure are some sweet lemons. Honestly, though, it needs a reboot. Not just a soft reboot, but it needs to be unplugged, allowed to sit for 30 seconds, and then restarted. The Snyderverse and almost everything tied to it was a mess, from Supermurder, to everything about The Flash, to Suckenwolf, to whatever they were trying to do by making every color the darkest shade they could get away with. It was their first attempt at a cinematic universe, Snyder decided that the entire thing needed to be crammed into his dark aesthetic, then they tried to course correct with poorly written films that were all of completely different styles where nobody was sure what was part of the universe and what wasn't (was Birds of Prey the same universe as Suicide Squad 2 and Batman Vs Superman? They all had characters in common, after all.) Not to mention Snyders policy against humor, fun, or personality traits other than "Brooding" and "Angry."
The problem is that with a very few exceptions, like Shazam, WW 1, and some scenes here and there, it didn't really capture the universe or the characters.
I get the reason that they're getting rid of Cavill and Gadot, and (possibly) recasting Momoa. Anything that Gunn makes that includes Henry Cavill as Superman (or GG as WW) will have ties to the Snyderverse, and people will connect his new universe with that one. They can't get rid of the taint of the past when they've got the same Superman and Wonder Woman standing together on screen.
In fact, I hope that they approach the 'connected' slowly rather than pushing it to the front. The Snyderverse jammed new characters together in film 2, and the big team-up movie introduced fully half of the characters the viewer was supposed to relate to all in the same film (along with tying up major plot points in the earlier film - badly.) The MCU didn't attempt a team-up until six films in, and every major character was one we already knew to some degree.
Hell, take it a step further. Leave the Trinity (Supes, Bats, Wonds) on ice for a while. (Wonds?) There are other characters they can build a universe around - there are even other characters they can build the Justice League around for several films before coming back to those three. And there are teams that aren't the Justice League. There's JL Dark (not yet, though - they need to distance themselves from DC = dark.) They could start with an aging JLA bringing in younger (and better known) heroes with the eventual plan to have them rebrand as the Justice League. They could build off of The Outsiders. What about Stormwatch? Hell, with some TLC to modernize the characters they could even do the Global Guardians. Hell, that might be the best match - it was a team that most people don't know, written specifically to emphasize diversity, which would make it an easy sell.
Last edited by Blackhawk on Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
It does seem to be like they tried to do too much in fewer movies. Justice League for instance suffered a lot from a lack of character development or even underuse of characters, such as Wonder Woman being reduced to what I felt was a bit part. Much of the output has been very uneven. And as you say, the style lacked humour and was often too dark for the characters. The one bright spot, along with a more colorful palette was Wonder Woman. But Superman needs his optimism. The dark sad world Snyder created didn't feel right for most characters. Felt more like a post-apocalyptic outlook of a decaying world and couldn't let the characters rise up.
For some reason, I've always been a fan of the Daxamite stuff. And most of that stuff comes from the LoS series. I also dig Wildfire and Chameleon Boy...although I wasn't a fan of some of the later retcons for his character.
But once we get a proper Legion of Superheroes film, I'll be gracious when you come here to apologize for your earlier protestations. I'm good like that.
Sounds like James Gunn is one of us. I think most DC fans here (any many other places) have been screaming that the DC animated division should be their inspiration for years.
Sounds like James Gunn is one of us. I think most DC fans here (any many other places) have been screaming that the DC animated division should be their inspiration for years.
Reading up on it isn't quite so exciting. A fan asked if animated shows like Justice League Unlimited and Young Justice were inspirations for the new universe. He replied, "Definitely." That's it, and isn't quite so comprehensive as the reactions make it sound.
And that was on the same day that HBO Max removed Justice League Unlimited from the channel to sell it to ad based streaming services.
I don’t see how any of that makes his statement false or misleading. I can understand the cynicism that their current cost slashing maneuvering has engendered in fans. But Gunn has enough cred with me that I believe he’s going to fashion the new DC cinematic universe with an eye towards the DC animated way of doing things.
hepcat wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:53 am
I don’t see how any of that makes his statement false or misleading.
It isn't. His statement, unless he's made another one, is one word. It's the fan reaction to it that is a bit misleading. There's a big difference between (paraphrasing) 'animated shows including Justice League and Young Justice are some of the inspirations' and 'Justice League the Animated Series is the inspiration behind the new DCU.'
I mean, for all we know, Justice League and Young Justice are inspirations, along with Catwoman, Superman IV, and Steel. And maybe Scooby Doo Meets Batman.
As I said, I can understand the reasoning behind the cynicism doubting the veracity of his statement. But I trust Gunn thanks to his obvious love of the genre and his past work.
hepcat wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:18 pm
As I said, I can understand the reasoning behind the cynicism doubting the veracity of his statement. But I trust Gunn thanks to his obvious love of the genre and his past work.
Who's doubting his statement? I'm just saying that his statement wasn't the same thing as the statement in that image.
