hepcat wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:15 am
Side note: Rainn Wilson has a point when he calls out an earlier episode for anti-Christian bias. I'm far from religious minded (as is Wilson, apparently), but if you read his point it makes sense. The moment someone shows up in one of these shows reading from a bible, you can almost be assured they'll be the villain. I hope they avoid that trope next season.
I don’t think that point about anti-religion bias is wrong in many instances, but I’m not sure it really fits here.
Spoiler:
David wasn’t really religious, and religion didn’t really end up being his motivation. He was playing the part of a preacher, but he makes it clear to Ellie that he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about religion and that he’s just doing it to keep his flock in line. I guess the critique still applies to some extent, but I think it would land much harder if David were actually a religious zealot rather than a power-hungry megalomaniac.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Finished up the show today. Loved the show (and the cast was fantastic), but have to say that I didn't like the ending (which I understand is the same as the game).
Spoiler:
It wasn't a shitty or dumb ending like Mass Effect 3 or anything. And honestly I feel a little stupid since there's a degree to which I am complaining that the apocalypse show was too depressing. But the show's ending made me feel like there was no hope at all for humanity. Like Ellie was it, and Joel took that away without a second thought. On top of that he specifically had the conversation with Ellie where she made clear that she wanted all of her suffering to have some point, and he took that away from her. Because not only did he bust up the Fireflies, but he also told a ton of lies to her that included that they had already tried this method of developing a cure, and it didn't work, and there's no hope for any cure of any kind.
It also made me feel like Joel is just fundamentally a bad person. Like it sure seems like he wants to just go to Tommy's ranch home and live out as long as happy a life there with Tommy and Ellie as he can. But he knows that's not what Ellie wants, so he feeds her a ton of lies to get her to go along with it. Sure, you can defend his choice to not let the Fireflies kill Ellie. BUT he could have done a ton of other things, like: (1) after busting into the surgery room, make them wake up Ellie and give her an active choice in the matter; (2) tell the truth to Ellie, and then look for another hospital / science center / etc. that will agree to try a method that won't kill Ellie.
But no, he's basically intentionally dooming humanity so that he can get his happy life for as long as possible. You can defend aspects of what he did, but I really don't see how one can defend all of what he did.
Also - how were the fireflies so sure pre-surgery that there was going to be no way to recover the cordyceps (sp?) from Ellie that they need without killing her. Sure, I guess they grow in the brain. But like, what if there's some on the exterior of her brain? What if there's some near the brain? Sure seems like there's some shit going on in her arm - did they check there?
El Guapo wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:58 pm
Finished up the show today. Loved the show (and the cast was fantastic), but have to say that I didn't like the ending (which I understand is the same as the game).
Spoiler:
It wasn't a shitty or dumb ending like Mass Effect 3 or anything. And honestly I feel a little stupid since there's a degree to which I am complaining that the apocalypse show was too depressing. But the show's ending made me feel like there was no hope at all for humanity. Like Ellie was it, and Joel took that away without a second thought. On top of that he specifically had the conversation with Ellie where she made clear that she wanted all of her suffering to have some point, and he took that away from her. Because not only did he bust up the Fireflies, but he also told a ton of lies to her that included that they had already tried this method of developing a cure, and it didn't work, and there's no hope for any cure of any kind.
It also made me feel like Joel is just fundamentally a bad person. Like it sure seems like he wants to just go to Tommy's ranch home and live out as long as happy a life there with Tommy and Ellie as he can. But he knows that's not what Ellie wants, so he feeds her a ton of lies to get her to go along with it. Sure, you can defend his choice to not let the Fireflies kill Ellie. BUT he could have done a ton of other things, like: (1) after busting into the surgery room, make them wake up Ellie and give her an active choice in the matter; (2) tell the truth to Ellie, and then look for another hospital / science center / etc. that will agree to try a method that won't kill Ellie.
But no, he's basically intentionally dooming humanity so that he can get his happy life for as long as possible. You can defend aspects of what he did, but I really don't see how one can defend all of what he did.
Also - how were the fireflies so sure pre-surgery that there was going to be no way to recover the cordyceps (sp?) from Ellie that they need without killing her. Sure, I guess they grow in the brain. But like, what if there's some on the exterior of her brain? What if there's some near the brain? Sure seems like there's some shit going on in her arm - did they check there?
There were other problems...
Spoiler:
Assume they sacrificed Ellie and came up with a cure (and there was no guarantee it would even work). There still remains: does this rinkydink group have the ability to:
1. Mass produce the vaccine.
2. Distribute it.
3. Convince the world to use it (see covid response).
4. Prevent it from being confiscated by powerful entities and used to control humanity.
Overall humanity has in fact survived and can continue to eke out an existence with or without the cure. And ask yourself: Would you sacrifice YOUR daughter for just a chance to save this effed up world?
El Guapo wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:58 pm
Finished up the show today. Loved the show (and the cast was fantastic), but have to say that I didn't like the ending (which I understand is the same as the game).
Spoiler:
It wasn't a shitty or dumb ending like Mass Effect 3 or anything. And honestly I feel a little stupid since there's a degree to which I am complaining that the apocalypse show was too depressing. But the show's ending made me feel like there was no hope at all for humanity. Like Ellie was it, and Joel took that away without a second thought. On top of that he specifically had the conversation with Ellie where she made clear that she wanted all of her suffering to have some point, and he took that away from her. Because not only did he bust up the Fireflies, but he also told a ton of lies to her that included that they had already tried this method of developing a cure, and it didn't work, and there's no hope for any cure of any kind.
It also made me feel like Joel is just fundamentally a bad person. Like it sure seems like he wants to just go to Tommy's ranch home and live out as long as happy a life there with Tommy and Ellie as he can. But he knows that's not what Ellie wants, so he feeds her a ton of lies to get her to go along with it. Sure, you can defend his choice to not let the Fireflies kill Ellie. BUT he could have done a ton of other things, like: (1) after busting into the surgery room, make them wake up Ellie and give her an active choice in the matter; (2) tell the truth to Ellie, and then look for another hospital / science center / etc. that will agree to try a method that won't kill Ellie.
But no, he's basically intentionally dooming humanity so that he can get his happy life for as long as possible. You can defend aspects of what he did, but I really don't see how one can defend all of what he did.
Also - how were the fireflies so sure pre-surgery that there was going to be no way to recover the cordyceps (sp?) from Ellie that they need without killing her. Sure, I guess they grow in the brain. But like, what if there's some on the exterior of her brain? What if there's some near the brain? Sure seems like there's some shit going on in her arm - did they check there?
There were other problems...
Spoiler:
Assume they sacrificed Ellie and came up with a cure (and there was no guarantee it would even work). There still remains: does this rinkydink group have the ability to:
1. Mass produce the vaccine.
2. Distribute it.
3. Convince the world to use it (see covid response).
4. Prevent it from being confiscated by powerful entities and used to control humanity.
Overall humanity has in fact survived and can continue to eke out an existence with or without the cure. And ask yourself: Would you sacrifice YOUR daughter for just a chance to save this effed up world?
Spoiler:
The logistics argument I don't buy at all. Sure, obviously the Fireflies couldn't roll it out single-handedly.
There'd almost certainly be enormous problems in manufacturing and distributing it. Yeah powerful people probably would try to control the distribution and use it to their own benefit. Even given all that, the vaccine / cure (I feel like the show wasn't 100% clear about which one it would be) would almost certainly save many, many lives.
Now the "would you sacrifice your own daughter to save the world?" question is inherently a harder one. As a matter of pure logic it's an easy call - one *should* be willing to sacrifice one life (even if it's your child) to save millions or billions. But of course it's not a matter of pure logic when it comes to one own's child. I *should* be willing to sacrifice my own daughter in an extreme situation like this. But could I?
BUT my main point is that I think Joel's actions all taken together are completely indefensible. If it was a situation where Marlene was pointing a gun at Ellie to take her away and sacrifice her, and Ellie was like "Joel, save me!" and he shot her and ran off with Ellie, that could at least be defended in terms of a parent's love. But Joel also murders a number of fireflies (including a surgeon, which was really unnecessary), AND spins a ton of lies with Ellie in a way that completely removes agency from her for important parts of her future. And the fact that he lies about it to Ellie both: (1) strongly suggests that he thinks that she wouldn't agree with what he did; and (2) really says to me that this is more a selfish act of Joel wanting for himself a life with Ellie, and less about acting for her or on her behalf. He's thinking only of himself, not about Ellie or given any consideration for the impact of all of this on humanity (or anyone else).
But at the end of the day, my real gripe is that the ending is just such a thorough downer. There's no cure / vaccine. On top of that, Joel decides to act in a way intended to foreclose a cure / vaccine being developed in the future (at least, to foreclose Ellie being a source of the cure). So for all that they did this season, Joel & Ellie achieved worse than nothing - a lot of people died as a result of their actions (mostly Joel's), and all they achieved really was reuniting Joel and Tommy (in a situation where it sure seems like Tommy didn't totally want to be reunited).
Everyone would've been better off if in episode 1 Joel just said "no thanks, I'll stick to sewer duty" and the episode ended there.
He was 100% acting out of love for Ellie when he did what he did. He could not let these people kill Ellie just for a chance (and probably a really small chance) of finding a cure. He did horrible things, but I would probably do horrible things to save someone I love. He lied to Ellie afterwards and I can't blame him for that. He doesn't want to see her racked with guilt. He had already taken her down this path and nothing would be gained by letting her know that a bunch of people died in her rescue. This is a great moral conflict and I was really happy to see it in this story.
I feel like if people are struggling with the moral implications of Last of Us Season 1, just wait until next season! I’m simultaneously looking forward to it and dreading it, if that’s possible.
For me, Season 2 takes the conflicted feelings I had about Season 1 and puts them in overdrive. I found it exceedingly challenging. But also one of the best games I ever played.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Spoiler:
He was 100% acting out of love for Ellie when he did what he did. He could not let these people kill Ellie just for a chance (and probably a really small chance) of finding a cure. He did horrible things, but I would probably do horrible things to save someone I love. He lied to Ellie afterwards and I can't blame him for that. He doesn't want to see her racked with guilt. He had already taken her down this path and nothing would be gained by letting her know that a bunch of people died in her rescue. This is a great moral conflict and I was really happy to see it in this story.
Doing things out of love is not inconsistent with being a bad person.
Spoiler:
In many ways the lies are what I blame him the most for. The Fireflies didn't give him a lot of time to think, and once he attacks the guards he's sort of locked into a violent approach to the problem.
But it seems like he has a decent amount of time to think about what to tell Ellie. And I'm not saying that he needs to give her every detail of his violent rampage, but lying about the cure being a dead-end is just completely indefensible. Ellie wants to help, and she wants her suffering to matter, and he's denying her both without giving her any opportunity to discuss or to give her input. He's an asshole.
Also makes me think differently about Tommy and his wife's response to Joel and concerns about him.
Of course it's defensible. Joel killed a lot of people, some of them surely not bad people, to save Ellie. That was most likely an emotional snap decision since he had to act fast. Now he has two options:
1. Tell Ellie the truth. He killed all those people to save her and that she might be able to stop this if she allows people of completely unknown qualifications to kill her. How is she going to take that? What's that going to do to this little girl that he has grown to love, which the episode made very clear? Will she be traumatized that she goes off on a one-way mission to let someone cut into her brain? It's too much to place on the shoulders of a young girl.
2. Lie to her. Ellie continues with Joel and gets to live her life.
This show is about difficult choices. Nothing is black and white, but you're treating it like it is.
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Really? Joel knows it.
Spoiler:
I don't think anyone is saying it's black and white, but it doesn't have to be in order to be a bad person. Killing good people to save yourself and/or a loved one certainly tips the scale.
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Really? Joel knows it.
Spoiler:
I don't think anyone is saying it's black and white, but it doesn't have to be in order to be a bad person. Killing good people to save yourself and/or a loved one certainly tips the scale.
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Really? Joel knows it.
Spoiler:
I don't think anyone is saying it's black and white, but it doesn't have to be in order to be a bad person. Killing good people to save yourself and/or a loved one certainly tips the scale.
Spoiler:
I'd kill a good person to save my kid. If it's between me killing them or them killing my kid, I'm going to select option A and I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be torn about that choice. Joel sees Ellie as a fill in for the daughter he lost. He's going to protect her no matter what.
Has he killed anyone out of revenge? I can't think of any. That's what separates Joel from the likes of Kathleen and puts his "bad person" status in question.
Of course it's defensible. Joel killed a lot of people, some of them surely not bad people, to save Ellie. That was most likely an emotional snap decision since he had to act fast. Now he has two options:
1. Tell Ellie the truth. He killed all those people to save her and that she might be able to stop this if she allows people of completely unknown qualifications to kill her. How is she going to take that? What's that going to do to this little girl that he has grown to love, which the episode made very clear? Will she be traumatized that she goes off on a one-way mission to let someone cut into her brain? It's too much to place on the shoulders of a young girl.
2. Lie to her. Ellie continues with Joel and gets to live her life.
This show is about difficult choices. Nothing is black and white, but you're treating it like it is.
Spoiler:
That's the thing - he doesn't have two options. This isn't black and white nor is it a binary choice - there's a whole range of ways he could approach things after he leaves the hospital. And like I said, I'm willing to give him some rope in terms of his violence because he had to make snap decisions in high risk high stress situations (and as an aside, Marlene also made some seemingly pretty stupid decisions as well).
None of that means he needs to tell some bald-faced lie about their being no cure, about their being raiders, etc. He can say that the Fireflies lied to her, and were going to kill her during the surgery. If he really needs to lie, he could say that the Fireflies attacked him and/or were going to kill him (honestly not 100% out of the question anyway). Once the violence started he forced them to disconnect her. He can lie about the body count, or about whether / under what circumstances he killed Marlene. Then he could talk with her about what the hell to do next. You know, give her some input into her life and what she wants to do with it.
OR...he could lie right to her face about something incredibly important to her, and then double down on his lie when she asks him to affirm that everything that he said was true. That's a second off-ramp, by the way - an opportunity to back off at least some of the lies. So on top of everything else, he's building his future relationship with his quasi-daughter on lies.
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Really? Joel knows it.
Spoiler:
I don't think anyone is saying it's black and white, but it doesn't have to be in order to be a bad person. Killing good people to save yourself and/or a loved one certainly tips the scale.
Spoiler:
I'd kill a good person to save my kid. If it's between me killing them or them killing my kid, I'm going to select option A and I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be torn about that choice. Joel sees Ellie as a fill in for the daughter he lost. He's going to protect her no matter what.
Has he killed anyone out of revenge? I can't think of any. That's what separates Joel from the likes of Kathleen and puts his "bad person" status in question.
Spoiler:
That's not really what I'm talking about, though. What about this hypothetical - there's a group of scientists that, by studying your kid, could end a disease that's going to kill a billion people (say). However there's a very high (90%+) chance that in doing so your kid would die. Your kid knows that you were talking to the scientists and asks what they said.
Would you lie to your kid about what they said, knowing that a billion people would die as a result?
the lie to Ellie after the fact. Based on Ellie's comments when she wakes up (where am I? where are my clothes?) it's clear the Fireflies hadn't filled her in on the fact she was gonna be sacrificed to get this maybe-cure. They didn't ask, and she didn't consent. Maybe she would have--I think she probably would have, but it's not a given to me. She did talk to Joel about her plans to stay with him after they've used her to find a cure, so it certainly seems she wasn't planning to just up and die in service to this goal.
Everything prior to The Big Lie™, I find difficult to throw stones despite how clear the choices/calculations may be to an unbiased observer with time and distance.
Even so, though, I can see how he feels he has to keep up the facade, as it's super-duper clear at this point that Joel needs Ellie, and that she's quite literally the world to him.
I highly recommend the podcast which I found enlightening all season long. This discussion starts ~39 min into the ep 9 podcast here:
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Really? Joel knows it.
Spoiler:
I don't think anyone is saying it's black and white, but it doesn't have to be in order to be a bad person. Killing good people to save yourself and/or a loved one certainly tips the scale.
Spoiler:
I'd kill a good person to save my kid. If it's between me killing them or them killing my kid, I'm going to select option A and I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be torn about that choice. Joel sees Ellie as a fill in for the daughter he lost. He's going to protect her no matter what.
Has he killed anyone out of revenge? I can't think of any. That's what separates Joel from the likes of Kathleen and puts his "bad person" status in question.
Spoiler:
That's not really what I'm talking about, though. What about this hypothetical - there's a group of scientists that, by studying your kid, could end a disease that's going to kill a billion people (say). However there's a very high (90%+) chance that in doing so your kid would die. Your kid knows that you were talking to the scientists and asks what they said.
Would you lie to your kid about what they said, knowing that a billion people would die as a result?
Spoiler:
I understand. My reply was to Alefroth's position that killing a good person to save a loved one tips the scales towards "bad person."
Yes, there are other stories Joel could tell Ellie. Maybe he didn't think of them. Maybe he's not ready for her to give her life. Maybe he just doesn't believe that anything will come from her sacrifice. I mean they were going to kill her in some run-down hospital with no scientific crew there to take in what they have found; just some doctor with lofty ambitions.
If sacrificing my daughter meant saving the planet, yeah, I can see some doing that. Would you let it happen in the scenario described above? Hell no. No chance of that.
Zaxxon wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:59 pm
The only part that irks me is
Spoiler:
the lie to Ellie after the fact. Based on Ellie's comments when she wakes up (where am I? where are my clothes?) it's clear the Fireflies hadn't filled her in on the fact she was gonna be sacrificed to get this maybe-cure. They didn't ask, and she didn't consent. Maybe she would have--I think she probably would have, but it's not a given to me. She did talk to Joel about her plans to stay with him after they've used her to find a cure, so it certainly seems she wasn't planning to just up and die in service to this goal.
Everything prior to The Big Lie™, I find difficult to throw stones despite how clear the choices/calculations may be to an unbiased observer with time and distance.
Even so, though, I can see how he feels he has to keep up the facade, as it's super-duper clear at this point that Joel needs Ellie, and that she's quite literally the world to him.
I highly recommend the podcast which I found enlightening all season long. This discussion starts ~39 min into the ep 9 podcast here:
Spoiler:
Marlene specifically tells Joel that they didn't tell Ellie that she was going to die - she says something along the lines of "Don't worry, we didn't tell her, she went to sleep without much stress." Which by the way how f'ing dumb is Marlene - I doubt she could have set up a pitch to Joel to get him more likely to go into a homicidal rampage than what she did.
But yeah, ultimately my main gripe is with The Big Lie, which is the part that I view as indefensible, and which tips Joel's actions for me to being fundamentally selfish.
McNutt wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:43 am
I don't know that Joel is a bad person.
Really? Joel knows it.
Spoiler:
I don't think anyone is saying it's black and white, but it doesn't have to be in order to be a bad person. Killing good people to save yourself and/or a loved one certainly tips the scale.
Spoiler:
I'd kill a good person to save my kid. If it's between me killing them or them killing my kid, I'm going to select option A and I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be torn about that choice. Joel sees Ellie as a fill in for the daughter he lost. He's going to protect her no matter what.
Has he killed anyone out of revenge? I can't think of any. That's what separates Joel from the likes of Kathleen and puts his "bad person" status in question.
Spoiler:
That's not really what I'm talking about, though. What about this hypothetical - there's a group of scientists that, by studying your kid, could end a disease that's going to kill a billion people (say). However there's a very high (90%+) chance that in doing so your kid would die. Your kid knows that you were talking to the scientists and asks what they said.
Would you lie to your kid about what they said, knowing that a billion people would die as a result?
Spoiler:
I understand. My reply was to Alefroth's position that killing a good person to save a loved one tips the scales towards "bad person."
Yes, there are other stories Joel could tell Ellie. Maybe he didn't think of them. Maybe he's not ready for her to give her life. Maybe he just doesn't believe that anything will come from her sacrifice. I mean they were going to kill her in some run-down hospital with no scientific crew there to take in what they have found; just some doctor with lofty ambitions.
If sacrificing my daughter meant saving the planet, yeah, I can see some doing that. Would you let it happen in the scenario described above? Hell no. No chance of that.
Spoiler:
Joel had time to think. Especially when Ellie asks him to affirm his story.
But really, ultimately the deal is (I think) that Joel lost his daughter, and that broke him in such a way that he was fully ready to die. Now he's in a position of having to relive his trauma and lose his de facto new daughter, and he just couldn't do it. He lied to her because he felt like there was a decent chance that if he told her the truth she'd want to go back and sacrifice herself, and he'd be back in the position of losing his daughter. His trauma is leading him to bad behavior. So it's understandable in that sense, just not (IMO) defensible.
In some ways I think he's really a lot like Kathleen. She was traumatized by her's brother's death, and it led her to be driven fundamentally by revenge in a way that she knew wasn't really defensible, and which ultimately got her people killed.
The fact that they were going to surgerymurder Ellie *right away* seems like a plot contrivance.
They are sitting in a medical facility capable of researching a cure, and they have the one human being on the planet known to be immune. Would their first move really be to cut her brain into pieces, killing her?
What about DNA testing? Blood analysis? Narrative debriefing? Psychological examination? Were they 100% certain that digging around in her cranium would result in a cure even though it would foreclose every sort of research that required her to be alive?
It's not like they'd had a chance to run this experiment before.
Holman wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:49 pm
On the Fireflies' own choices:
Spoiler:
The fact that they were going to surgerymurder Ellie *right away* seems like a plot contrivance.
They are sitting in a medical facility capable of researching a cure, and they have the one human being on the planet known to be immune. Would their first move really be to cut her brain into pieces, killing her?
What about DNA testing? Blood analysis? Narrative debriefing? Psychological examination? Were they 100% certain that digging around in her cranium would result in a cure even though it would foreclose every sort of research that required her to be alive?
It's not like they'd had a chance to run this experiment before.
Spoiler:
100%. Honestly that would have worked better (and felt less forced) if they'd arrived at the hospital the episode before. Then the next episode starts, some time has passed, the researchers tell them that they've found a cure, then Joel discovers last minute to his horror that the procedure requires Ellie to die and someone (presumably Marlene) explains that they have been trying to find another way but there isn't one.
But this isn't the first show that crammed in the story it wanted to tell via a semi-forced mechanic.
With how much I disagreed with McNutt on the dynamics in Better Call Saul, I’m pleasantly surprised to see that I am 100% in line with his thoughts on Joel in Last Of Us.
Loved the show, loved the ending and I would do exactly what Joel did without hesitation.
HBO’s The Last of Us, starring Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, has 24 total nominations, second only to HBO’s other powerhouse show, Succession, which has 27. The third-most nominated series at the 2023 Emmys is The White Lotus—yet another HBO series. It’s a weird time for HBO Max, the company’s affiliated streaming service, to change its name and marketing materials, but it did, anyway.
Here's the list:
Spoiler:
Outstanding Drama Series
Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series, Pedro Pascal
Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series, Bella Ramsey
Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series, Murray Bartlett
Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series, Lamar Johnson
Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series, Nick Offerman
Outstanding Guest Actor in a Drama Series, Keivonn Montreal Woodard
Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama Series, Melanie Lynskey
Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama Series, Anna Torv
Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama Series, Storm Reid
Outstanding Production Design for a Narrative Contemporary Program
Outstanding Casting for a Drama Series
Outstanding Contemporary Costumes for a Series
Outstanding Directing for a Drama Series
Outstanding Picture Editing for a Drama Series
Outstanding Contemporary Hairstyling
Outstanding Main Title Design
Outstanding Contemporary Makeup (Non-Prosthetic)
Outstanding Prosthetic Makeup
Outstanding Writing for a Drama Series
Outstanding Music Composition for a Series (Original Dramatic Score)
Outstanding Sound Editing for a Comedy or Drama Series
Outstanding Sound Mixing for a Comedy or Drama Series
Outstanding Special Visual Effects in a Season or a Movie
Oh man, I was telling everyone that if they didn't get the nom for Outstanding Contemporary Hairstyling that I was going to kerplotz. And I hate to kerplotz.
hepcat wrote: Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:53 pm
Oh man, I was telling everyone that if they didn't get the nom for Outstanding Contemporary Hairstyling that I was going to kerplotz. And I hate to kerplotz.
Weren't you hoping to get a nomination for Outstanding Contemporary Hairstyling?
