Shootings

[Pyperkub]

attempting to understand a person's motives is the first step in dealing with this behaviour.

Speculation is simply part of that. While it's true that speculation can turn to gossip and then "fact", that's not a reason to avoid speculating.

"I heard she killed herself because Brad was going to dump her" is not the same as "Do you think she and Brad were having relationship problems? What other aspects of her life could have influenced her actions?"

Trying to shut down discussion of motives because you don't like what is being speculated is not reasonable or likely.

You're not alone in this Grif. Other members of the board try to shutdown discussion when the topic makes them unhappy too. It's not a rare event, really. But it never works that I can recall.

It’s victim blaming, plain and simple. I thought most people were against that, maybe I was wrong. I’m pretty sure you’d jump on anyone who said, “Well, maybe that man raped that woman because of the way she was dressed. Maybe that helped motivate him. We need to understand that”.

In addition, this comment is completely ignores the comments l was responding to:

Speculation is simply part of that. While it's true that speculation can turn to gossip and then "fact", that's not a reason to avoid speculating.

"I heard she killed herself because Brad was going to dump her" is not the same as "Do you think she and Brad were having relationship problems? What other aspects of her life could have influenced her actions?"

Gossip is actually what is happened in the quotes I cited. No one was really seeking to “analyze” what may have happened. Just look at what was said, “One has a suspicion . . . Possibly significant abuse” and “Abuse at a private and/or religious school - say it isn’t so!” Does that sound more like gossip or an attempt at “analysis”?

I don’t have a problem with actual analysis or seeking to really understand motivations, but this wasn’t even close to that.This victim blaming, regardless as to how you wish to frame it.

False, in my case at least. I actually am trying to analyze what happened in a time when information is chaotic and restricted.

FWIW, we do have secondhand information that at least part of my hypothesis was mistaken, tho without the primary source (the manifesto)

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... nt-school/


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[GreenGoo]

@Grifman, We'll have to disagree.

[hepcat]

Grif has a valid point. If we condemn Magic the Gathering for throwing out comments in the same vein, we have to also keep from doing the same. There’s been no evidence so far that they were abused by the school. In addition, they had plans to attack a mall after that if they weren’t stopped. So it wasn’t just one place.

Look, I dislike evangelicals in this country because I feel they’ve put politics over their beliefs for far too long. But I know they’re a subset of a much larger group that also consists of plenty of people fighting the good fight. I’d rather not alienate the good ones (like Grif) by painting over everyone…like MTG does.

However, Scientologists like Runningman9 are still fair game.

[YellowKing]

I think the point could have been communicated with a bit less hostility. It's one thing to point out that the line of thinking gets close to victim shaming and may need to be redirected, it's another to basically just tell someone to shut up.

[hepcat]

I didn’t see a “shut up” in that post. I saw a “stop it” which came across a little less aggressive than telling someone to shut up, to me. But now we’re getting into semantics.

Grif is a Christian. I think he gets a little defensive when the stereotypes start coming out. The same way most of us get defensive when politicians like MTG start trying to insinuate that all trans people are ticking time bombs, or whatever her latest schtick is.

[GreenGoo]

Grif has a valid point.

I did say others on the board felt as Grif does. I had you specifically in mind when I wrote that.

[waitingtoconnect]

Whether they support my views or not, the founding fathers were born 300 years ago. They were closer to the 100 Years War than they are to the second Iraqi War. They couldn't have conceived of our issues and situation, let alone accounted for them.

In my opinion, the relevance of their opinions on our society is pretty solidly irrelevant at this point beyond the level of curiosity.

And trying to decide how to run our society based on the way people thought centuries ago is absurd.

Funnily enough the founding fathers thought we should think for ourselves and that the framework they set up was just a framework. That successive generations would be sensible.

But it’s clear that with the exceptions of the first and fourteenth amendments that far right “know nothing” MAGA types who have taken over the Republican Party are citing the constitution as a quasi religious document which is certainly not the intention of the founding fathers.

My point is similar to yours, and so is the point of the historian in my linked article, and John Adam’s himself, is that we are in charge now.

Also as a Christian I’d like to say that whipping out the shooter must’ve been abused isn't going to help if there is no evidence of this. And either way many who have been abused do not act this way.

I’d also like to point out to politicians like Magic the Gathering that many state republicans and house republicans have determinedly opposed any attempts to take guns from the mentally ill and in some cases removed restrictions.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1039301

[GreenGoo]

Also as a Christian I’d like to say that whipping out the shooter must’ve been abused isn't going to help if there is no evidence of this. And either way many who have been abused do not act this way.

Oh for fuck's sake.

Read what was written.

One has a suspicion there is more to this story, and possibly a significant (abusive?) history at the school for this person.

Abuse? At a private and/or religious school? Say it ain't so, Plucky!

At least understand what you're complaining about. *You* in this case is anyone who believes speculation is the same as false accusations. There has been more written to complain about the comments than the comments themselves, which weren't even accusatory!

And you're right. Not everyone who gets abused turns into mass murderers. Excellent refutation.

edit: God. I better spell it out since it was missed the first time around. It was speculated that the shooter targeted their old public school because of some sort of trauma there. Maybe even abuse. Speculative. Not accusatory. As a currently targeted vulnerable minority, not exactly an outrageous theory.

Isgrim chimed in with, paraphrasing, "there is precedent and patterns that support this theory", and it wasn't even directed solely at religious schools!

Let's not go crazy with the conspiracy theories everyone.

Lastly reasons aren't exculpatory. They are simply reasons. If the law system is willing to take motives into account, the public is certainly going to, outcries against it notwithstanding.

[Pyperkub]

Also as a Christian I’d like to say that whipping out the shooter must’ve been abused isn't going to help if there is no evidence of this. And either way many who have been abused do not act this way.

Oh for fuck's sake.

Read what was written.

One has a suspicion there is more to this story, and possibly a significant (abusive?) history at the school for this person.

Abuse? At a private and/or religious school? Say it ain't so, Plucky!

At least understand what you're complaining about. *You* in this case is anyone who believes speculation is the same as false accusations. There has been more written to complain about the comments than the comments themselves, which weren't even accusatory!

And you're right. Not everyone who gets abused turns into mass murderers. Excellent refutation.

edit: God. I better spell it out since it was missed the first time around. It was speculated that the shooter targeted their old public school because of some sort of trauma there. Maybe even abuse. Speculative. Not accusatory. As a currently targeted vulnerable minority, not exactly an outrageous theory.

Isgrim chimed in with, paraphrasing, "there is precedent and patterns that support this theory", and it wasn't even directed solely at religious schools!

Let's not go crazy with the conspiracy theories everyone.

Lastly reasons aren't exculpatory. They are simply reasons. If the law system is willing to take motives into account, the public is certainly going to, outcries against it notwithstanding.

The other thing is that it is hard (for me at least) to comprehend what inspires people to do such awful things, and in so many other instances, bullying/abuse (not necessarily at school)/etc have at least been a factor in pushing someone to such a murderous state of mind with regards to people they don't even know.

Even those who have jumped on the trans blamewagon are trying to do the same thing, in their own way (tho ulterior motives are a HUGE part of this). And, I do think that some people who seek out transgender treatment may be doing so without actually knowing what it is that makes them different, and *think* "this could be what I perceive to be wrong with me", when it could be more grabbing at anything to gain hope (fortunately the trans medical professionals *appear* to have accounted for this in the process, but not all medical professionals are ethical...).

[hepcat]

I’d also like to point out to politicians like Magic the Gathering that many state republicans and house republicans have determinedly opposed any attempts to take guns from the mentally ill and in some cases removed restrictions.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1039301

Oof. There's making a point, then there's making a point by shooting your debate partner in the face then turning the gun on yourself.

[LawBeefaroni]

This is the new suicide. Go out "famous."

[Default]

According to the latest news, the shooter recently had a friend and mentor killed on a car accident.
That fits the pattern of a traumatic event pushing someone over the edge.

[Pyperkub]

According to the latest news, the shooter recently had a friend and mentor killed on a car accident.
That fits the pattern of a traumatic event pushing someone over the edge.

One wonders how that timeline works with the writing of the manifesto.

[Default]

According to the latest news, the shooter recently had a friend and mentor killed on a car accident.
That fits the pattern of a traumatic event pushing someone over the edge.

One wonders how that timeline works with the writing of the manifesto.

Stress is cumulative, and one can carry it a long, long way. Then you get a major shock to your world, and your control over your stress collapses. Half these mass shooters die in the act, and the half that survive didn't think they would.

[Default]

Any organization that has a "sit down, shut up, and do what you're told" climate runs a significant risk of attracting abusers.
I haven't heard anything, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that turned out to be a factor.

[malchior]

Should have locked the doors to the beach and had some resource officers.

https://twitter.com/Staciegregory/statu ... 8178248706

[Unagi]

My sister is at the isle of the palms right now with her family.
I just reached out to her.

[TheMix]

My sister is at the isle of the palms right now with her family.
I just reached out to her.

Hope they are all okay!

[Unagi]

My sister is at the isle of the palms right now with her family.
I just reached out to her.

Hope they are all okay!

They are ok. They were actually very close by.

Her text back to me:

Yeah. Pretty surreal. Literally one boardwalk (very close in beach talk) down from us at we were all on the beach. Mason heard it first and screamed active shooter. We dropped everything and ran with hundreds of people to our hotel which luckily for us was right there. Extremely scary. We are fine. It was insane and everywhere was locked down for hours.

Mason is their 13 yr old.

[Zenn7]

Was shopping yesterday at stores by the Great Lakes Crossing mall in Auburn Hills (MI). As we were preparing to leave, 2 cops come flying near with sirens on, another that passed us earlier suddenly hit his lights and turned around. Two more come up off ramp as we were getting on 75 to leave. 2 more coming towards the mall on 75.

Kid and I both say "must have been a shooting".

Thankfully, there was a report of an active shooter at the mall but no confirmed shooting and no injuries.

https://www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/po ... 5lu13bw_us

That certainly made the day a little less boring.

We were not in the mall/mall parking lot or anything, we were at stores that were like a block away from the mall, but you have to drive by the mall to get to the highway, so even if there had been a shooter, our danger was minimal at most.

[Isgrimnur]

Louisville

A mass shooting at a bank in downtown Louisville, Kentucky, on Monday morning left five people dead inside the building and sent six people to a local hospital, police said.

The shooter is dead, police added.
...
One of those shot was a police officer, according to preliminary information from a source with direct knowledge of the scene on the ground. The source said there were shots exchanged between the shooter and police during the incident.

[malchior]

The coverage of this is wall-to-wall and so paint by the numbers that it feels like they rolled out the grade C news reader on several networks to boost the profit margin.

[Zaxxon]

https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/statu ... r_TKg&s=19

[LawBeefaroni]

There aren't armed "police officers" at banks. There armed guards. Banks, being private, pay for those guards. They don't have police powers, their only job is to discourage robberies in the bank.

If we want to put armed guards in schools to prevent shootings, they need to be there for that purpose only and we have to be ready to pay for it. Which is not what Cruz proposed. He proposed doubling school resource officers (school cops) in addition to security grants (pork).

It did include additional mental health funding but only as much as needed to say it was in there (by my read).

[Isgrimnur]

[LawBeefaroni]

Right. Police have dozens of jobs and as much as we want their #1 job to be "get in the line of fire to save lives", it's not. Some cops will do that but it's not a given.

If you want that, you stick some guys in a bulletproof checkpoint, give them patrol rifles and body armor, and pay them a lot of money to sit around all day watching cameras.

If we're cool with our schools looking much like a military base or prison, that's the solution. It will work to reduce school shooting casualties.

Not doubling resource officers. That's the solution to truancy or vandalism.

[Isgrimnur]

CNN

A 23-year-old bank employee opened fire at his workplace in downtown Louisville, Kentucky, on Monday morning and livestreamed the attack that left four dead and nine others wounded, authorities said.

The gunman was identified as Connor Sturgeon, an employee at Old National Bank, according to interim Louisville Metro Police Chief Jacquelyn Gwinn-Villaroel. He was killed by police after a shootout with authorities.

The four victims, all between the ages of 40 and 64, were identified as Joshua Barrick, Juliana Farmer, Tommy Elliott and James Tutt, the chief said. The victims included a close friend of Gov. Andy Beshear, who he credited with helping him both professionally and in his personal life.

Of the nine people injured, three are hospitalized in critical condition, three are in non-critical condition and three have been released, the chief said.

A 26-year-old officer who graduated from the police academy 10 days ago was one of those wounded; he was shot in the head and is in critical condition, Gwinn-Villaroel said.

The mass shooting began at the Old National Bank on East Main Street just after 8:30 a.m. police said, about 30 minutes before the bank opens to the public.

Officers got to the bank within three minutes of being dispatched and found the shooter was still firing, Louisville Metro Police Deputy Chief Paul Humphrey said. Officers got into a shootout with the gunman, killing him, Gwinn-Villaroel said.
...
The gunman was notified that he was going to be terminated from Old National Bank, according to a law enforcement source familiar with the investigation.

[Smoove_B]

The bank shooting in KY is horrific, but have you heard about second shooting? I don't think he knows about second shooting, Pip.

One person was killed and another injured in a shooting Monday outside a Jefferson Community & Technical College building downtown, according to Louisville Metro Police.

The shooting was unrelated to a mass shooting earlier that morning at the Old National Bank building, about 1.5 miles away, LMPD Maj. Russell Miller said.

Police received a call about the shooting about 11 a.m. at Eighth and Chestnut streets. Miller said LMPD's homicide unit is investigating, and they believe multiple suspects could be involved. He could not release any descriptions but said the suspects fled on foot before getting in a vehicle. They have not been apprehended.

[LawBeefaroni]

The second shooting sounds like a robbery or beef.



The first one, at the bank, is unfortunately how a disturbing high number of people are deciding to handle their problems/perceptions of problems and/or commit suicide.

Eventually we'll get to the point of "this is why we can't have nice things" with the majority of the 2A crowd but I shudder to think what the body count will have to be to get there.

[Kurth]

Eventually we'll get to the point of "this is why we can't have nice things" with the majority of the 2A crowd but I shudder to think what the body count will have to be to get there.

No f’ing way. After Sandy Hook, I think just not realistic to think we’ll ever get that crowd to that point. Not ever going to happen.

[Zaxxon]

Certainly not within my lifetime.

[LawBeefaroni]

Eventually we'll get to the point of "this is why we can't have nice things" with the majority of the 2A crowd but I shudder to think what the body count will have to be to get there.

No f’ing way. After Sandy Hook, I think just not realistic to think we’ll ever get that crowd to that point. Not ever going to happen.

It may take every one of them losing a family member or friend to realize it but there is a point where it tips. I hope we don't have to get to that point before there are changes but there is a number.

We are at about 15/100,000 right now with around 48K gun deaths annually. 200,000 annual gun deaths would be about 63/100,000. So what would it take? Well, cancer is around 610K per year and seems to hit close to home for just about everyone. So maybe a 12X increase before we see changes? 200/100K? That's 10x Chicago's shooting fatalities. Oh, and that's just deaths. You'd have a million or more shot.

It's sickening to think about it that way but that's where we.are.

[Freyland]

Certainly not within my lifetime.

My first response was, "because we'll likely be part of the body count." The odds are feeling ever more likely. I work in a high -stress job and I know of at least one colleague who thinks life has treated her unfairly. Will I or someone close to me be next?

[YellowKing]

Covid has killed over a million and we couldn't get people to get a vaccine wear a mask. I'm usually an optimist, but I agree with the pessimists here. Nothing is going to change until the gun lobby is destroyed. And I don't know how we get there.

[dbt1949]

I cannot think of any way to solve this. I'm not even against banning guns if it comes to that.

[Blackhawk]

I cannot think of any way to solve this. I'm not even against banning guns if it comes to that.

A focused plan combined with time. The way to solve it in the next year? Not possible. The way to solve it in the next five, or next seven (or next X)? Not possible. A way to slowly reduce it with the goal of eliminating it in a generation or two, maybe.

But a big start would be to fund, expand, and destigmatize mental health support, as any practical gun control is instantly neutered (and, to be honest, the current Supreme Court might make this a bad time to push the envelope - bad laws are easier to fix later than bad SC decisions.)

[Unagi]

Eventually we'll get to the point of "this is why we can't have nice things" with the majority of the 2A crowd but I shudder to think what the body count will have to be to get there.

No f’ing way. After Sandy Hook, I think just not realistic to think we’ll ever get that crowd to that point. Not ever going to happen.

There just has to be a tipping point (and it may indeed be a loooong way off) where enough people are truly impacted by an event in their immediate family that it finally becomes politically impossible to protect the current read of the 2A. Perhaps that's what LB was saying and I'm just parroting it.

[Blackhawk]

There just has to be a tipping point (and it may indeed be a loooong way off) where enough people are truly impacted by an event in their immediate family

You mean the necessary price of freedom? And the mindset is that such a tragedy requires more guns to stop the other guns.

[Unagi]

There just has to be a tipping point (and it may indeed be a loooong way off) where enough people are truly impacted by an event in their immediate family

You mean the necessary price of freedom? And the mindset is that such a tragedy requires more guns to stop the other guns.

IMO, I think when someone you love is killed senselessly like this, you will find most people actually want to go into "what needs to change for this to never happen again to anyone!!" mode... not "I should have been in a position to kill this person". It's what we painfully see a lot of in the wake of these tragedies. The idea here (the 'tipping point' idea) is that if enough people from 'the 2A group' are actually robbed of people they truly cannot 'live without' - they will wake the fuck up. Just saying that's the premise. Not demanding it's true. And frankly, it's going to be a lot of people in 'the 2A group' that see more than their fair share of it, I bet.

[Kurth]

Eventually we'll get to the point of "this is why we can't have nice things" with the majority of the 2A crowd but I shudder to think what the body count will have to be to get there.

No f’ing way. After Sandy Hook, I think just not realistic to think we’ll ever get that crowd to that point. Not ever going to happen.

There just has to be a tipping point (and it may indeed be a loooong way off) where enough people are truly impacted by an event in their immediate family that it finally becomes politically impossible to protect the current read of the 2A. Perhaps that's what LB was saying and I'm just parroting it.

Sure, in theory. But that's not going to happen. Your chances of dying in a mass shooting are incredibly small. And those not killed in a mass shooting? The ones that make up the vast majority of lives ending in gunfire? No one really gives a shit. Barely newsworthy.

There is no tipping point.