The 4th Estate Thread Has Surrendered

[malchior]

Just to smash on this one more time because I was watching live coverage in NYC. MTG showed up for 5 minutes (really) and about 100 journalists trampled over each other to wave their microphones to capture her divine wisdom. Which means they are enabling her to spread hate and disorder in the exact same way they did with Trump in 2016. And like Stahl they're failing us. They've LEARNED NOTHING.

Serious question - do you think Stahl is a dope or that she's cynical? Like it's hard to believe that she can seriously regard MTG as smart. Is she just working to find a frame that will generate views, or is she more on the clueless side of things?

Out of touch possibly. A lot of people who know her made some pretty public statements saying...I know you're a good person but...how did you miss the mark so badly here type statements. A lot of them. It was sort of sad. She didn't do her homework for sure. For example, she seemed like she genuinely didn't know about the whole pedophile angle for instance.

[malchior]

FWIW, while EVERY SINGLE NEWS ORGANIZATION has solicited multiple Opinion pieces about Trump's Indictment, NONE of them have actually seen the Indictment.

And now having seen the indictment text...we still don't have enough information to properly dig into it. We know more but it's almost certainly a wider scheme than what people narrowly portrayed it as.

[waitingtoconnect]

This is the issue with having 24/7 news.

President trump is going to the bathroom. We have our correspondent in the stall next to him. While we wait for Billy let’s talk about the Bristol stool chart with our special guests…

…, later….

Note the president is taking a sip of water. Let’s talk to our panel. Dr. George is that an appropriate amount of water to take in one sip ? Mary is how he is picking up the glass an indication or admission of guilt?

[El Guapo]

Honestly not sure whether I saw this in one of the threads here or not, but I don't think so?

But this is a good summary of how our media takes a reasonable point and just repeats it into a maelstrom of stupid talking points. It's true I think that the part of the indictment that takes this falsified records charges and makes them a felony by calling them campaign contributions) is not a slam dunk. It's not crazy, but it's not a slam dunk. But because everyone needs something to talk about and because that is not a complicated or long point to express, it's got to get recycled into this endless "is this disappointing / not what we were expecting?" useless garbage.

[malchior]

I just got around to that. He's got it right. What's really interesting is A LOT OF BAD THINGS are happening simulataneously but they focus all their attention on one or two items and this dynamic waters even them down. They are often not even the most important issues facing us and they beat them to death.

If I was just reading the NY Times or the Washington Post or watching CNN I would be dreadfully underinformed about what's happening right now. You have to go to multiple sources and you have to rely on iffy manipulated platforms like Twitter. I'm always surprised by how little people who are actively engaged know about the issues and the details. It's depressing because lack of engagement is a big part of the why when we see that the United States is falling into darkness.

Just to call out the NY Times because it deserves to be criticized, the front page is about the Afghanistan report, Northern Ireland, the IRS reform plan, Tik Tok, Biden's Trans Ban Plan, and a picture referring to the events in Tennessee telling the reader the story was on page A16.

The most important thing that happened yesterday was what happened in Tennessee and the NY Times buried it in back of the main section. The ProPublica report about Clarence Thomas? No mention on the front page. Buried in A18. To sum up, the front page has fine stories but if I wanted to be informed about the risks we face...I'm not going to see it there. We have a story that talks about the Biden administration failure in Afghanistan, two that talks about some administration policy shifts, and then some international stories. They buried the GOP rot washing over the land deep in the back of the main section. A "liberal" rag, amirite?

Edit: And just to really pick a nit. The picture on the front page of the NY Times about Tennessee is practically stock footage. It is just a picture of police lined up in front of protesters. The NY Times is partially white washing white supremacy and it's a shame because the story itself is pretty good. In a sense, this attitude or whatever the heck is broken at NY Times might look like the Tweet below I posted yesterday. It is like the NY Times is afraid if they put the bleak reality right in front of us it'll cause a collapse in trust. As Blackhawk said in the other thread - it's the opposite. Institutions like the NY Times are still so important but in a way they are also enabling the problems that'll make them irrelevant in the long-term. Like many they suffer from a profound inability to see the risks ahead for themselves and all of us.

[Grifman]

[Unagi]

I mean thank goodness. Otherwise - all lies are obviously newsworthy. I mean, clearly, War of the Worlds was newsworthy.

[Alefroth]

Wouldn't they have to have reported them as lies for them to be considered newsworthy?

[Blackhawk]

But your honor, it couldn't be libel! It got us clicks!

[Isgrimnur]

Spoiler:

Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel.

[Blackhawk]

Spoiler:

Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel.

Thus the reference to clicks rather than views.

I don't watch Fox closely enough to know whether it was broadcasts or articles that got them into this mess (I'm guessing both.)

[Zaxxon]

Very not good for Fox:The judge is not happy, may appoint a special master to investigate Fox's compliance handing over evidence .

[El Guapo]

God, if the motions thus far have been what Fox has produced, what could they possibly be holding back? I guess it could just be sloppiness and that additional stuff may not matter all that much, but man.

[malchior]

God, if the motions thus far have been what Fox has produced, what could they possibly be holding back? I guess it could just be sloppiness and that additional stuff may not matter all that much, but man.

I wonder if this is a result of producing so much content constantly. It isn't hard to believe that Fox lawyers were weasel wording statements to protect themselves, were sloppy, or simply didn't know thing existed and invited this scrutiny.

[Pyperkub]

God, if the motions thus far have been what Fox has produced, what could they possibly be holding back? I guess it could just be sloppiness and that additional stuff may not matter all that much, but man.

Tapes?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-pr ... t-dominion

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[Grifman]

[Grifman]

[LordMortis]

Fox admits to lying and dominion settles for 787.5 million live conference going on. Dominion going on to"next case" Yay? What will that do to Fox though?

[Dramatist]

Fox admits to lying and dominion settles for 787.5 million live conference going on. Dominion going on to"next case" Yay? What will that do to Fox though?

Probably nothing to Fox News viewers, but that is a huge settlement.


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[Kurth]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

[stessier]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

[Alefroth]

Fox admits to lying

Did they?

[Alefroth]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Because they basically skated.

[Dramatist]

I heard on Pod Save America that Dominion was valued at around 80 million, 787 million would be hard to pass up.


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[Zaxxon]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Fox News had revenue in 2022 of $14.0B. In Q2 2023 they had $4.6B in revenue. This settlement is ~15 days of revenue. For about as intentionally and cynically misleading the public about the foundation of our democracy as possible, over a prolonged period.

It's a total farce. If you're not disappointed, you're not paying attention.

[stessier]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Because they basically skated.

What did you think would have happened had Dominion won?

From what I've read, there was zero chance they were getting $1.6 billion. The whole company was only worth $30-80 million and there are rules around how much damages could be. Fox's true feelings were already aired from the discovery leaks. It's not like Fox was going to go out of business over this. And there was still a real possibility that Dominion wouldn't be able to prove actual malice - all it would take is one MAGA on the jury.

[stessier]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Fox News had revenue in 2022 of $14.0B. In Q2 2023 they had $4.6B in revenue. This settlement is ~15 days of revenue. For about as intentionally and cynically misleading the public about the foundation of our democracy as possible, over a prolonged period.

It's a total farce. If you're not disappointed, you're not paying attention.

Again - what were you hoping for? Not morally, but legally.

[Zaxxon]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Because they basically skated.

What did you think would have happened had Dominion won?

From what I've read, there was zero chance they were getting $1.6 billion. The whole company was only worth $30-80 million and there are rules around how much damages could be. Fox's true feelings were already aired from the discovery leaks. It's not like Fox was going to go out of business over this. And there was still a real possibility that Dominion wouldn't be able to prove actual malice - all it would take is one MAGA on the jury.

One need not have had hope of an actually-appropriate outcome to harbor disappointment at this outcome.

[Alefroth]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Because they basically skated.

What did you think would have happened had Dominion won?

From what I've read, there was zero chance they were getting $1.6 billion. The whole company was only worth $30-80 million and there are rules around how much damages could be. Fox's true feelings were already aired from the discovery leaks. It's not like Fox was going to go out of business over this. And there was still a real possibility that Dominion wouldn't be able to prove actual malice - all it would take is one MAGA on the jury.

It wasn't about the reward to me, but the process of it playing out in a courtroom. If that statement is all they are required to do, they can go on pretending they didn't do anything wrong.

[Skinypupy]

Fox admits to lying

Did they though? I can guarantee that none of their viewers will ever hear a peep about it ever again. Even their statement on it was wishy-washy and gave enough wiggle room for the “true believers”.

“We acknowledge the Court’s rulings finding certain claims about Dominion to be false.”

“Certain claims” will be taken to mean literally anything Fox wants it to. Any the continual cycle of flat-out lies and OUTRAGE will continue unabated. Nothing at all will change but the damage to the US' electoral system is incalculable.

[pr0ner]

They probably want to be careful lest they give Smartmatic more ammo with their own defamation suit.

[gilraen]

Fox News had revenue in 2022 of $14.0B. In Q2 2023 they had $4.6B in revenue. This settlement is ~15 days of revenue. For about as intentionally and cynically misleading the public about the foundation of our democracy as possible, over a prolonged period.

Still, revenue isn't profit, and you don't just agree to pay out three-quarters of a billion dollars because you don't want the hassle of a court case. You pay that much because you are scared of what else might come out, and that you might actually lose. Fox didn't want to settle, and today suddenly they did - there are some theories floating around that a new memo or email surfaced that makes things much worse for Fox. And Smartmatic is waiting in the wings to take full advantage of it.

[Zaxxon]

I get it. Smartmatic will extract another few days' worth of cashola. The disappointing part for me is that I struggle to see how a media outlet could possibly be any more clearly guilty of perverting the truth for profit, and therefore this represents an approximation of the best accountability outcome possible under our system.

Since this accountability outcome sucks, it's disappointing.

[El Guapo]

I get it. Smartmatic will extract another few days' worth of cashola. The disappointing part for me is that I struggle to see how a media outlet could possibly be any more clearly guilty of perverting the truth for profit, and therefore this represents an approximation of the best accountability outcome possible under our system.

Since this accountability outcome sucks, it's disappointing.

There is also the possibility of a shareholder derivative lawsuit as well, FWIW.

[Isgrimnur]

[Kurth]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Because they basically skated.

What did you think would have happened had Dominion won?

From what I've read, there was zero chance they were getting $1.6 billion. The whole company was only worth $30-80 million and there are rules around how much damages could be. Fox's true feelings were already aired from the discovery leaks. It's not like Fox was going to go out of business over this. And there was still a real possibility that Dominion wouldn't be able to prove actual malice - all it would take is one MAGA on the jury.

It wasn't about the reward to me, but the process of it playing out in a courtroom. If that statement is all they are required to do, they can go on pretending they didn't do anything wrong.

Exactly. I was looking forward to seeing Fox try to defend itself in court. This resolution is basically Fox paying its way out of having to go through what promised to be an excruciatingly painful trial. While I agree that there's been some public reckoning with the discovery leaks, that pain would have paled in comparison to the cost a trial would have exacted. That's why Fox is paying $715M to avoid it.

Again, I'm disappointed, but not surprised. The dollar figure was just too big for Dominion to pass up.

[LordMortis]

CNBC reporting Dominion have six other law suits warming including Guliani, Lindell, and NewsMax also it's likely Fox will pay out of insurance, so cost?,, meh. They just avoid having to have Murdoch and their personalities take the stand. So it's just a payday for Dominion. Great for them, as Zax says, disappointing for the nation.

[Kurth]

This Atlantic article sums up my disappointment well.

Dominion’s choice to settle comes as a great disappointment to many critics of Fox, and is also probably a smart financial decision. For the critics, this case was about democracy and disinformation and provided an opportunity to hold Fox accountable for years of broadcasting hogwash. For Dominion, it was primarily about business. No matter how lofty the language its spokespeople used, the company didn’t sue to fix the American media landscape.

[Alefroth]

CNBC reporting Dominion have six other law suits warming including Guliani, Lindell, and NewsMax also it's likely Fox will pay out of insurance, so cost?,, meh. They just avoid having to have Murdoch and their personalities take the stand. So it's just a payday for Dominion. Great for them, as Zax says, disappointing for the nation.

If that is true, maybe it'll be the insurers that eventually lead to a crackdown on disinformation.

[Grifman]

Disappointed, but not surprised.

Why disappointed?

Fox News had revenue in 2022 of $14.0B. In Q2 2023 they had $4.6B in revenue. This settlement is ~15 days of revenue. For about as intentionally and cynically misleading the public about the foundation of our democracy as possible, over a prolonged period.

It's a total farce. If you're not disappointed, you're not paying attention.

You shouldn’t compare the settlement amount to revenue, as that is a gross amount before expenses. Instead it should be compared to FOX’s annual profit, which last year was $1.5 billion. So basically Dominion wiped out half of FOX’s annual yearly profit. That is not an insignificant number by any means.