Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[GreenGoo]

I have a question. Before I go looking, what year of the model do you get if the wait time goes into a new year? For example, wait times in Canada for an EV6 seem to be 12-13 months right now. I assume I'd get a 2024 if I ordered today, but maybe not. It's less clear which model you'd get if you ordered in June.

Anyone know how it's handled?

[Zaxxon]

I have a question. Before I go looking, what year of the model do you get if the wait time goes into a new year? For example, wait times in Canada for an EV6 seem to be 12-13 months right now. I assume I'd get a 2024 if I ordered today, but maybe not. It's less clear which model you'd get if you ordered in June.

Anyone know how it's handled?

Typically whatever's new at the time of delivery.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, I went reading some forums and that seems to be the case. Price is never fixed so you end up paying whatever they tell you you're paying when they deliver it. Could be thousands different. Not that I know of a better way to approach it, but unknowns make it harder to plan.

Speaking of which, if I think wait times are bad now, I'm glad I wasn't shopping for one during 2022. They're still waiting apparently.

[GreenGoo]

Since I'm looking at EVs only now, that kind of puts Hyundai out of the running. They don't seem to have any SUVs, not even compact cross-overs, so what they do have seems too small. If if the numbers are comparable, wife prefers the hatchback trunk configuration.

I looked at the Volvo cx40 but it's seems to be a worse EV6 in most areas, including cost.

I still want to take a closer look at the mach-e even though it's a sedan, just in case it's more awesome than expected.

I'm back to almost considering PHEVs for a greater choice and less wait time.

[Zaxxon]

The Mach-e is not a sedan—it’s a compact SUV.

[GreenGoo]

Great. All the more reason to look at it.

A quick look at a couple of comparison articles end up with the EV6 on top, although the mach-e has more cargo space. Even if I went with a mach-e, wait times look to be 6+ months, unless ordering a base model. So I don't gain anything in terms of availability, lose out on price and overall value, including charge times, but gain storage space and suspension.

Likely a pass.

[GreenGoo]

I took a look at the volvo CX40 as well, but it doesn't really lead in any category, although it is more expensive than some.

I like volvo, but I'm already struggling to get the features I want at a price that doesn't cripple me.

[GreenGoo]

Anyone want to share level 2 charging dock products? Whichs and whys?

[Zaxxon]

Anyone want to share level 2 charging dock products? Whichs and whys?

Meaning home L2 chargers?

[GreenGoo]

Yes. I'm reading this in the meantime.

L2 charging at home

[stessier]

With your yearly mileage it sounds like you might be able to get by on Level 1.

That being said, I have a 40 amp JuiceBox mounted inside my garage and a 48 amp Pulsar Plus Wallbox mounted outside. The JuiceBox was 5 years old when I had to replace a relay. It worked fine before the relay went bad and has been fine since the fix. The app has improved massively over the past 5 years and is now in the "Good" category. The Wallbox is only 15 months old but has been solid the whole time and has a really nice app.

[GreenGoo]

With your yearly mileage it sounds like you might be able to get by on Level 1.

Doesn't seem like it, but possibly. In any case, I'd prefer L2 for peace of mind.

Forgot to mention I need it to be weatherproof, as the car sits (or will) on an uncovered driveway.

[Zaxxon]

Roger. I'll give the short answers and then a longer one. Choose the one you want.

Shortest: What Stessier said. Especially the part about getting by on L1--L2 is great, and in general I think people that can have it should have it. But if you really don't need it, you don't need it and can save some $$. Why do I think you should probably get it if you can? It eliminates the biggest knock against BEVs (that charging takes forever), and over the very long run it saves money as it has ~1/2 the efficiency loss vs L1. (Around 20-25% of the energy expended on L1 charging is lost, vs ~10% on L2.) That adds up when you're talking many MWh of energy. Even if you will be fine 98% of the time on L1, it's nice to know that if you had to, you could add 30 or 40 miles of range in an hour rather than 3-4.

Short:
The most versatile option out there right now is the new Tesla Universal Wall Connector. Similar to the Magic Dock on Superchargers, this has both a J1772 and a NACS plug on it, and will therefore charge any EV out there now and in the future. It'll also do 48A / 11.5 kW output, which is one of the highest you'll find (many top out at 32A (7.6 kW) or 40A (9.6 kW)) but may or may not be relevant to you. The innards are the same as what's in the Gen 3 NACS Wall Connector, which is surely the most-installed home charger in North America. This is a very good, reliable, will-work-for-anything, future-proofed option. But it's a Tesla product, which I know you're trying to avoid.

Longer:
First, define what you're looking for. Do you want hardwired or an option that plugs into a 240V outlet? How much power do you need? Based on your mileage, you may not even need L2, so something that's 32A but cheaper than a 48A option is probably fine. (32A is still enough to fully charge most BEVs overnight).

Some chargers* will talk to each other, so if you find yourself in a position of owning 2 BEVs, you can spend $$ on only one circuit to the parking area and have 2 chargers split that power intelligently rather than running 2 separate circuits. I don't think that's particularly relevant to you, but wanted to mention it.

Some are weatherproof, and others aren't--I just saw your last reply so wanted to sneak that in here. I believe all the ones mentioned here are outdoor-rated. (I know the Tesla and Chargepoint units are)

Other good options are the cheaper Tesla Wall Connector (NACS only) and the Chargepoint Home Flex (though this one is 40A). I've also owned the JuiceBox Pro 40A (now enel-X), and have used Wallboxes at Airbnbs. Have had good luck with all of them.

One more option (warning: also Tesla) is the Tesla Mobile Connector. This will be the cheapest good option. Tops out at 32A but is solid, can plug into just about any outlet type in existence, and can easily be unplugged and brought with you on trips (eg for plugging in at Airbnbs that don't have an actual EV charger). Super-versatile in that regard, but it's NACS-only which means for today, it's basically Tesla-only unless you want to venture into adapter land. Once other manufacturers start shipping with NACS it'll be more useful outside of Teslas, though.

I highly recommend the State of Charge Youtube channel if you have the patience to watch reviews of any of these products you're considering. He's very thorough and has tested pretty much every L2 charger out there, so he's going to know the minute differences between options.

The 4 best, in his opinion (warning: this was produced before the Tesla Universal WC and the other manufacturers announcing NACS migrations):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56e8-nLqM0c

Chargepoint Home Flex:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5orCI78MS8o

Tesla Universal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7HnxjNcH5Y

Wallbox Pulsar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqrDdSlOrAM

* - I use the term 'charger' in place of EVSE even though it's incorrect, as nobody likes a pedant.

[GreenGoo]

I highly recommend the State of Charge Youtube channel if you have the patience to watch reviews of any of these products you're considering. He's very thorough and has tested pretty much every L2 charger out there, so he's going to know the minute differences between options.

The 4 best, in his opinion (warning: this was produced before the Tesla Universal WC and the other manufacturers announcing NACS migrations):

Yes, I will watch all of them, thank you for the information and links.

A disturbing thing I've noticed is that the deeper I dig into EVs the more I come across people with obvious axes to grind. It's frustrating. Because I want honest facts, both pros and cons, and these people are muddying the waters on purpose.

[Zaxxon]

A disturbing thing I've noticed is that the deeper I dig into EVs the more I come across people with obvious axes to grind. It's frustrating.

It's a whole can o' worms, for sure.

[stessier]

That Youtube channel has tried every charger imaginable and does very thorough reviews. I chose the Wallbox because of his "frozen cable" test that showed it has the most flexible cable even when temps dropped.

[GreenGoo]

Good stuff. We see temps down -20C or even -30C. Lower for people and windchill. We also see temps as high as 35C before humidity is taken into account.

So I need something rugged, I suppose. I'll take a close look at the wallbox.

[Zaxxon]

A few more Supercharger sites have opened up to non-Teslas this month, and not just in CA/NY. Hopefully a sign that we'll start seeing these pop up on the regular. New sites in Utah, Texas, Alaska, Michigan, and Canada. There's scuttlebutt that at least a few more are in the process of being upgraded this week.

[GreenGoo]

executive summary of what a supercharger station is?

I just got permission to look into leasing for a couple of years until supply catches up with demand and pricing is more negotiable. Just something to look into. I believe the ford dealerships here have a few mach-e's on the lots. I might look at leasing one of those.

Or buying one. I have no idea what I'm going to do. Still absorbing info.

$1000+ plus tax for L2 charger, plus electrician fees. Just fyi.

[Zaxxon]

executive summary of what a supercharger station is?

Tesla's brand-specific name for an L3 charger. Next year, most existing SCs will be open to other brand vehicles via an adapter, but in the interim Tesla is installing 'magic docks' which are built-in CCS adapters on a small number of stations.

I just got permission to look into leasing for a couple of years until supply catches up with demand and pricing is more negotiable. Just something to look into. I believe the ford dealerships here have a few mach-e's on the lots. I might look at leasing one of those.

Or buying one. I have no idea what I'm going to do. Still absorbing info.

You could do far worse than a Mach-e.

$1000+ plus tax for L2 charger, plus electrician fees. Just fyi.

Doesn't have to be. Just sayin'.

[GreenGoo]

You could do far worse than a Mach-e.

$1000+ plus tax for L2 charger, plus electrician fees. Just fyi.

Doesn't have to be. Just sayin'.

Yes, the Mach-e just seems to be outdone by the EV6 for the same price (on their canadian websites anyway).

If the EV6 didn't exist, I figure I could be happy enough with the mach-e. If the mach-e was cheaper I wouldn't be so resistant and willing to hold out for the EV6. I'd love an EV9 but even if the wait times weren't outrageous, the price is beyond what I can justify.

I've just added the L2 charger cosrt to the cost of the car, as part of budgeting. I did discuss the possibility of using L1 most of the time and local L2 chargers to top up on occasion as necessary with my wife. But I think I'd rather pay the money upfront for peace of mind.

[GreenGoo]

If I were to lease I'd need to make sure I am still able to save up for buying an EV in a year or two. I've never leased before so I need to look into that a bit closer, although I understand the basics, just not the fine print.

[Zaxxon]

I did discuss the possibility of using L1 most of the time and local L2 chargers to top up on occasion as necessary with my wife. But I think I'd rather pay the money upfront for peace of mind.

Probably a wise move, especially if you think there may be some grumbling due to the move to an EV. Heavily reducing the chances of any range anxiety is probably well worth the cost.

If I were to lease I'd need to make sure I am still able to save up for buying an EV in a year or two. I've never leased before so I need to look into that a bit closer, although I understand the basics, just not the fine print.

I've never leased, so am no help here. I do know that in the US, leasing can allow certain purchases that would ordinarily not qualify for the government incentives to qualify. No idea if that's a thing in Canada, nor whether it'd be any help to your specific circumstances.

[GreenGoo]

I think you need to lease for a specific number of years for government rebates to apply to EVs. I had actually forgotten that the rebates applied to leases as well, so I was excited for a moment, but then remembered the duration limits, which are longish. 3-4 years for a lease, I think. I'll have to look it up eventually.

[GreenGoo]

I did discuss the possibility of using L1 most of the time and local L2 chargers to top up on occasion as necessary with my wife. But I think I'd rather pay the money upfront for peace of mind.

I think I mispoke here. Are public charging stations (i.e. gas stations for EVs) L3 or L2? Does it depend? I feel like no one is going to be patient enough to use a public L2 charger, but I guess I don't know.

[Zaxxon]

I did discuss the possibility of using L1 most of the time and local L2 chargers to top up on occasion as necessary with my wife. But I think I'd rather pay the money upfront for peace of mind.

I think I mispoke here. Are public charging stations (i.e. gas stations for EVs) L3 or L2? Does it depend? I feel like no one is going to be patient enough to use a public L2 charger, but I guess I don't know.

It depends. L1 basically just means 120V, so really, super-duper slow. A modern BEV's full charge time will be measured in days, not hours.

L2 is 208V or 240V typically, and can range from 3.3 kW (technically) to 22 kW. Full charge time is measured in hours, though at the low end of L2 power and the high end of BEV capacity, it could be more than a day. Lots of public chargers are L2, often in places where you will typically park for several hours. Hotels, malls, public parking in urban areas, etc. In public areas, you're not necessarily plugging in to get a full charge, but rather just to fill up as much as you can while going about your day.

L3 is DC fast charging, and will range from 50 kW to 350 kW presently. Typically on an L3 charger you're not targeting a 100% charge, but rather what you need to either get to your next stop on a road trip, or to get a high enough charge to go about your day/week if you don't have home charging. Stops are measured in minutes, with 10-20 being good and anything over 45 being not good.

[GreenGoo]

what do you mean by "not good" for 45 mins? Too long? Wear and tear on battery? Something else?

[Zaxxon]

what do you mean by "not good" for 45 mins? Too long? Wear and tear on battery? Something else?

Too long. When you’re on a road trip, or just sitting there to fill up cause you have no home charging, 20 min is a sweet spot. From having done a ton of trips, if I have a 20-min stop, it feels no different from a gas car. Stop, everyone gets out to use the restroom, maybe a bite to eat, and we’re back at it. Once you exceed 45 min, it starts to feel like wasting time.

That’s all very subjective, though. Just something I’ll look at on any future BEVs I buy—how many miles can I add in 20 min?

[stessier]

Only thing I'd add to Zaxxon's comments is I look at how many kW I add in (time unit). Miles is too subjective for my taste as it depends on driving style, conditions, etc. I prefer to know what's in the battery and do my own calculations. But, as my kids frequently remind me, I am weird.

Also note that electrician fees for a L2 charge can be substantial depending on how far they have to run the cable. My brother needed to run the length of his house and it was over $2k just for the circuit.

[Zaxxon]

Only thing I'd add to Zaxxon's comments is I look at how many kW I add in (time unit). Miles is too subjective for my taste as it depends on driving style, conditions, etc. I prefer to know what's in the battery and do my own calculations. But, as my kids frequently remind me, I am weird.

I also am weird, and do the same. The reason I preach miles rather than kW is that miles are what ultimately matters on a trip, and kW can be misleading if one vehicle is much more efficient than another. Since we're on a gaming site, I'd liken it to measuring a CPU by GHz vs FPS in the game I want to play. I care about the processor specs, but at the end of the day what I'm shooting for is a solid framerate in the game I'm actually playing, not a higher Geekbench score. kW is a benchmark spec. Miles are the ultimate measure of the end-user experience.

Also note that electrician fees for a L2 charge can be substantial depending on how far they have to run the cable. My brother needed to run the length of his house and it was over $2k just for the circuit.

Seconded. My house has a crawl space separating the panel from the garage, so it was cheap--an easy run and not crazy long. I think it cost ~$600 to run the 60A circuit to the garage. My in-laws have their panel in the basement at the back of the house, and it had to be run all sorts of ways to ultimately end in the garage. Cost a multiple of what I paid, and they've got a 50A circuit.

[GreenGoo]

Only thing I'd add to Zaxxon's comments is I look at how many kW I add in (time unit). Miles is too subjective for my taste as it depends on driving style, conditions, etc. I prefer to know what's in the battery and do my own calculations. But, as my kids frequently remind me, I am weird.

Also note that electrician fees for a L2 charge can be substantial depending on how far they have to run the cable. My brother needed to run the length of his house and it was over $2k just for the circuit.

I think I'd prefer to do my own calcs as well.

Luckily my fuse box is right by a window that looks out at the front/rear tire of my current car. I can almost touch the car and the box at the same time.

I still expect to get soaked for the connection anyway.

[Zaxxon]

Only thing I'd add to Zaxxon's comments is I look at how many kW I add in (time unit). Miles is too subjective for my taste as it depends on driving style, conditions, etc. I prefer to know what's in the battery and do my own calculations. But, as my kids frequently remind me, I am weird.

Also note that electrician fees for a L2 charge can be substantial depending on how far they have to run the cable. My brother needed to run the length of his house and it was over $2k just for the circuit.

I think I'd prefer to do my own calcs as well.

Luckily my fuse box is right by a window that looks out at the front/rear tire of my current car. I can almost touch the car and the box at the same time.

I still expect to get soaked for the connection anyway.

Do you have blank space in the panel for a 240V breaker? There's more involved than that (ie a load calc), but physical proximity and open space in the panel are two of the biggest determinants of cost. We already know distance is not an issue. If you have breaker space as well, that's a great sign that it won't be very expensive.

[stessier]

Only thing I'd add to Zaxxon's comments is I look at how many kW I add in (time unit). Miles is too subjective for my taste as it depends on driving style, conditions, etc. I prefer to know what's in the battery and do my own calculations. But, as my kids frequently remind me, I am weird.

Also note that electrician fees for a L2 charge can be substantial depending on how far they have to run the cable. My brother needed to run the length of his house and it was over $2k just for the circuit.

I think I'd prefer to do my own calcs as well.

Luckily my fuse box is right by a window that looks out at the front/rear tire of my current car. I can almost touch the car and the box at the same time.

I still expect to get soaked for the connection anyway.

I know it's not apple-to-apples, but I had to run a 60amp circuit 20 ft in conduit and then through the garage wall to the outside wall where the charger was mounted. It was $700.

When I mounted my unit inside, all they did was install a 40 amp outlet directly below my breaker box (the indoor one is plug-in rather than hardwired) - the wire run was less than 12". It was $350.

For both they also had to install new breakers, but there was already space in the box and they didn't have to move any of the existing connections.

[GreenGoo]

If you have breaker space as well, that's a great sign that it won't be very expensive.

I believe I do. I'd have to look closer but I'm pretty sure.

When the time comes, I'll let you know how bad things are up here. Literally everything is more expensive, even things that have no reason to be (not referring to this specific thing).

[GreenGoo]

Ugh. Leasing is almost as expensive as buying, but at the end you don't have anything, not even a depreciating asset.

I can't imagine leasing.

Sigh. Or can I? I'll have to actually do the numbers to see if it's as bad as it looks on first pass.

[Formix]

Side note - still loving my Hyundai Ioniq 6. Just took a trip from NC to PA and back, and the "free" Electrify America charging stations were plentiful enough, and they all were working, so no issues there.

[Zaxxon]

A few more Supercharger sites have opened up to non-Teslas this month, and not just in CA/NY. Hopefully a sign that we'll start seeing these pop up on the regular. New sites in Utah, Texas, Alaska, Michigan, and Canada. There's scuttlebutt that at least a few more are in the process of being upgraded this week.

This is finally starting to take off. Since this last post (from Friday), 4 new Magic Dock sites are live in Colorado, plus one in Utah, two in Washington State, two in the Gulf states, and one in Indiana. A rate of two sites per day. Hopefully that keeps up for a bit so we get some cross-country routes enabled on the Supercharger network for non-Teslas.

[Zaxxon]

A few more Supercharger sites have opened up to non-Teslas this month, and not just in CA/NY. Hopefully a sign that we'll start seeing these pop up on the regular. New sites in Utah, Texas, Alaska, Michigan, and Canada. There's scuttlebutt that at least a few more are in the process of being upgraded this week.

This is finally starting to take off. Since this last post (from Friday), 4 new Magic Dock sites are live in Colorado, plus one in Utah, two in Washington State, two in the Gulf states, and one in Indiana. A rate of two sites per day. Hopefully that keeps up for a bit so we get some cross-country routes enabled on the Supercharger network for non-Teslas.

[Formix]

TN/KY still needs more. On a recent trip to Indianapolis, I took the ICE car because there was one stretch where there was only 1 charger in a 300-mile range. Between other users and potential downtime, that waaay too little by a factor of 10.

[Zaxxon]

Now Hyundai/Kia are on board. This effectively ends the plug wars in the US.

https://twitter.com/hyundai/status/1709 ... 09843?s=46