2024 - the MAGA Presidency and Revenge Tour

[LordMortis]

We've always come back and moved forward but time and/or price isn't pretty to factor in. That and there's always a first and final time to fail. I'd prefer not to risk it, but the struggle won't stop should TFG win with his Supreme Court, Congress, and (sadly) popular support. With the nature of the billionaire class and the ability to use media as means of control, it's gonna suck, doubly so for those ground under heel, but the struggle will continue.

[malchior]

We've always come back and moved forward but time and/or price isn't pretty to factor in. That and there's always a first and final time to fail. I'd prefer not to risk it, but the struggle won't stop should TFG win with his Supreme Court, Congress, and (sadly) popular support.

If Trump wins, it'll almost certainly be while losing significantly in the popular count.

With the nature of the billionaire class and the ability to use media as means of control, it's gonna suck, doubly so for those ground under heel, but the struggle will continue.

Sure but it'll be way, way more dystopian than people realize. It'll likely be at a level where people will almost certainly leave the country and may be granted asylum elsewhere. That's way beyond even what happened in the 50s. Tear up the comparisons. There aren't any.

[YellowKing]

My buddy (who leans conservative) tried to brush off Trump 2024 fears because he said, "Who's President doesn't really make much of a difference in our daily lives." To which I responded, "Maybe not in YOUR daily life, but it matters a lot to women, minorities, transgender and LGBTQ+ communities, etc..." He didn't have much of a comeback for that.

It's easy to say it doesn't matter who's President when you're a straight white guy who loves guns.

[Zaxxon]

It's easy to say it doesn't matter who's President when you're a straight white guy who loves guns.

Sure, but even then it's transparent lazy thinking. Ask your friend how jazzed he'd be about an AOC presidency. Or Rashida Tlaib.

[YellowKing]

I've seen variations of the argument from other conservative-leaning friends of mine, and I think it's just a way to say "I'd be OK with Trump" without admitting to it. If you asked my buddy straight to his face whether he likes Trump, the answer would be "Hell no." But the reality is he's going to take Trump all day long over a Democrat. He just won't say that.

Saying the Presidency "doesn't really matter" is a way to shrug off accountability for Trump as POTUS.

[Kurth]

I've seen variations of the argument from other conservative-leaning friends of mine, and I think it's just a way to say "I'd be OK with Trump" without admitting to it. If you asked my buddy straight to his face whether he likes Trump, the answer would be "Hell no." But the reality is he's going to take Trump all day long over a Democrat. He just won't say that.

Saying the Presidency "doesn't really matter" is a way to shrug off accountability for Trump as POTUS.

I don't understand any of it. No matter how partisan you are, how can anyone be ok with supporting a candidate for POTUS who does not respect the electoral process and, at a minimum, cheerleaded a mob that tried to forcibly and violently disrupt the peaceful transfer of power? The events of 1/6 were televised. We don't even need receipts. Everyone watched in real time. And this guy is polling favorably today to be elected leader of this country again. He is a traitor. It's just crazy.

[YellowKing]

Well it's pretty easy if you yourself don't respect the electoral process. It's not just Trump; Republicans all over the nation are doing everything in their power to undermine elections at the state level, and half the country is totally OK with it.

[Carpet_pissr]

MANY that will vote for Trump, but May not love him, will be because in their minds, the alternative is SO horrific, and they disagree so strongly with the ideals of the Democrats, and ‘the way the country is going’, that losing is not an option…lie, cheat, steal, whatever it takes.

The stakes, in their minds, are too high to play by the typical rules.

[waitingtoconnect]

We've always come back and moved forward but time and/or price isn't pretty to factor in. That and there's always a first and final time to fail. I'd prefer not to risk it, but the struggle won't stop should TFG win with his Supreme Court, Congress, and (sadly) popular support.

If Trump wins, it'll almost certainly be while losing significantly in the popular count.

With the nature of the billionaire class and the ability to use media as means of control, it's gonna suck, doubly so for those ground under heel, but the struggle will continue.

Sure but it'll be way, way more dystopian than people realize. It'll likely be at a level where people will almost certainly leave the country and may be granted asylum elsewhere. That's way beyond even what happened in the 50s. Tear up the comparisons. There aren't any.

Trump will lose the popular vote but he will win in the battleground states either rightfully or through voter suppression or through the house speaker refusing to certify.

Then I’d expect Federal pardons for him by him and an invasion of New York by federal troops to “restore order”. I’d expect hunter biden, Letitia James, Jack smith et al to be arrested and charged with treason. CNN and msnbc will probably be sold to the mypillow guy for a $1 after irs audits. Oh and he will definitely come for the $5 million he thinks Bill Maher owes him.



It’s the slow motion coup.

I still question as a former Republican what provoked people to support this clear lunatic. Even in Fox News he’s clearly lost his marbles. Based on family members who love him I can only assume it’s down to a desire to bring back an American I don’t think ever existed

[YellowKing]

I've got an old Twitter account related to a theme park page I used to run, and it has been taken over completely by right-wing accounts and bots. Reading through that drivel you can begin to glimpse how out of touch people are.

They think the *Democrats* are the ones stealing elections, so in their minds voter suppression, elimination of mail-in ballots, etc. are all just methods of fixing the problem of a party trying to steal the country away.

I also found it astounding how many blatantly false fear-mongering posts are on there. Almost weekly I see something about military planes being deployed across the country, followed by posts from militia nutjobs saying "Get ready, load your guns" etc. One in which they said protestors had taken over the Capitol building due to the Israel/Gaza conflict. Stuff that is just complete fiction. It's quite frightening.

[LordMortis]

Well it's pretty easy if you yourself don't respect the electoral process. It's not just Trump; Republicans all over the nation are doing everything in their power to undermine elections at the state level, and half the country is totally OK with it.

It's the case here, but at the same time it was Republicans that have saved us from Republicans. So at least it's not half the state, it's a sizable minority of half the state that thought it has enough outsized power and was wrong... to date... This perception of what Biden has and has not done is a bit puzzling to me. There are lots of reasons to dislike Biden, but compared to Trump? Compared to riot and/or insurrection attempts? Comparing economies? Comparing crisis response? Comparing budgets and spending? I got nothin'.

I don't understand any of it. No matter how partisan you are, how can anyone be ok with supporting a candidate for POTUS who does not respect the electoral process and, at a minimum, cheerleaded a mob that tried to forcibly and violently disrupt the peaceful transfer of power? The events of 1/6 were televised. We don't even need receipts. Everyone watched in real time. And this guy is polling favorably today to be elected leader of this country again. He is a traitor. It's just crazy.

Yeah, this.

[Carpet_pissr]

I don't understand any of it. No matter how partisan you are, how can anyone be ok with supporting a candidate for POTUS who does not respect the electoral process by stealing an election? The evidence that Biden stole the election is clear. We don't even need receipts. Everyone watched in real time. He is a traitor. It's just crazy.

FTFY to help you understand just how simple it really is.

[Alefroth]

Minnesota Supreme Court blocks bid to keep Trump off of ballot-

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/11/0 ... ary-ballot

[Holman]

I don't understand any of it. No matter how partisan you are, how can anyone be ok with supporting a candidate for POTUS who does not respect the electoral process and, at a minimum, cheerleaded a mob that tried to forcibly and violently disrupt the peaceful transfer of power? The events of 1/6 were televised. We don't even need receipts. Everyone watched in real time. And this guy is polling favorably today to be elected leader of this country again. He is a traitor. It's just crazy.

I don't think it's hard to understand. They tell themselves "The country is going to hell, and Trump is strong and will keep us safe."

End of story. Norms and traditions simply don't enter into it.

[GreenGoo]

Sure, but the first is subjective and the other two are demonstrably false. Why do they believe otherwise?

[Holman]

Sure, but the first is subjective and the other two are demonstrably false. Why do they believe otherwise?

Spend some time in the 24/7 right-wing media bubble.

[GreenGoo]

If that's the problem, then reaching those people with information that isn't lies, and having them trust or at least be open minded to their sources is imperative to solving or at least ameliorating your country's politic issues. I mean, right?

Half the country is willingly submitting themselves to a propaganda campaign the likes of which has never been seen before, and the other half is like "shrug. Capitalism. Whatcha gonna do?".

At what point do you take extraordinary steps to protect half the country that is being victimized and mentally abused by their media of choice? Which really isn't a choice at all at this point. And what should those steps be?

They are being fed a reality that doesn't exist. They now live in a bubble that reinforces that non-existent reality. That is so fucking dangerous it should be considered a national emergency. Once people accept lies as facts, there is no limit on what you can make them do. And they are starting to do those things.

Honestly it's like watching a Bond villain plot executed in real time. The villains aren't the people, the villains are the media. Well, one man with complete control over it. Even the political leaders are just another part of the bubble. They are a symptom at this point.

[Kurth]

Feels like you are suggesting government step in and control the media to stamp out the disinformation and propaganda.

I’m more than sympathetic to the frustration and fear about what’s happening here, but that’s really not a solution.

This country - on both sides of the political spectrum - will never accept government controlled media.

[GreenGoo]

I identified what I believe is the root cause. I don't think it's political views I don't like, I think it's brainwashing, essentially.

I then asked what steps should be taken to save half of america. I'm open to suggestions. Do you have any?

[Exodor]

Minnesota Supreme Court blocks bid to keep Trump off of ballot-

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/11/0 ... ary-ballot

I'm a little nervous about the efforts to use the 14th to keep Trump off the ballot before he's convicted of insurrection. If successful I can easily see a purple state governor trying to keep a future Democratic candidate off the ballot using these cases as precedent.

[Scraper]

Minnesota Supreme Court blocks bid to keep Trump off of ballot-

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/11/0 ... ary-ballot

I'm a little nervous about the efforts to use the 14th to keep Trump off the ballot before he's convicted of insurrection. If successful I can easily see a purple state governor trying to keep a future Democratic candidate off the ballot using these cases as precedent.

This exactly. He needs to be convicted first. The Civil War was a different standard. The southern politicians actively broke off from the US, started their own country and then engaged in war against the US. As bad as Trump is, his crimes are no where near that level and need to be proven in a court before the 14th is applied to him. Anything short of that for the allegations are way to easy to abuse by both parties.

[hepcat]

I've lost count of the number of missteps by Democrats trying to push down Trump. I still feel that if given more leeway, he would have eventually sunk himself. Whether or not that would have caused more harm than good for America though is another question entirely.

[Holman]

I identified what I believe is the root cause. I don't think it's political views I don't like, I think it's brainwashing, essentially.

I then asked what steps should be taken to save half of america. I'm open to suggestions. Do you have any?

I do.

The first suggestion is to all but forget trying to convert the MAGAts. They're too far gone. Fortunately they are a minority, and a relatively small one when you consider the population as a whole (rather than just those who vote).

The real solution is to do everything humanly possible to educate and energize non-voters who aren't beyond reach. A whole lot of Americans don't vote not because they hate their options but because politics feels far away and unimportant to them. Bringing even a quarter of the non-voting public into the political space would change everything.

[Apollo]

...The first suggestion is to all but forget trying to convert the MAGAts. They're too far gone. Fortunately they are a minority, and a relatively small one when you consider the population as a whole (rather than just those who vote)...

I strongly disagree with this! As one who has lived in a Deep Red State most of his life I feel that at least 2/3rds of MAGAts are nowhere near as extreme as their support of Trump would lead you to believe.

I know plenty of Trump supporters who have voted for Democratic Presidential candidates as recently as 2000 and still vote for the occasional Democrat in state and local races. However, I don't feel like typing out a wall of text right now explaining how I feel about this specific topic and I'm sure you don't feel like reading it, so I'll summarize it this way. They Democrats need to find and enact policies that help everyone instead of policies that specifically target key constituents in the party. When Democrats are whining about being unable to eliminate student debt and defending race and sex based affirmative action while arguing that preferences should exist indefinitely, it's not a good look. Then you layer on top of everything else the great Wall of Disinformation the GOP has built while the increasingly elitist Left abandons White working class voters altogether and it is no surprise why someone like Trump has inspired so many angry low-information voters.

The Democrats should be killing the Fascist party but because they waste so much of their time and energy talking about things like transgender issues and electric cars instead of ideas and themes that can unite large portions of the electorate Obama 2008-style, they are going to continue to struggle and my feeling is that it's only going to get worse.

[YellowKing]

The Democrats should be killing the Fascist party but because they waste so much of their time and energy talking about things like transgender issues and electric cars instead of ideas and themes that can unite large portions of the electorate Obama 2008-style, they are going to continue to struggle and my feeling is that it's only going to get worse.

That they talk about these things "all the time" I think is a misconception fueled by right-wing media. Electric cars, transgender issues, wokeism, etc. are all things the Republican Party have blown out of proportion, not the left.

I guaran-damn-tee you the word "transgender" has been used more on Fox News than any other media outlet.

The electric car thing still boggles my mind. The same idiots who want Biden's head on a platter because of "high gas prices" are the same ones bitching about the audacity of someone trying to sell cars that don't run on gas.

[malchior]

...The first suggestion is to all but forget trying to convert the MAGAts. They're too far gone. Fortunately they are a minority, and a relatively small one when you consider the population as a whole (rather than just those who vote)...

I strongly disagree with this! As one who has lived in a Deep Red State most of his life I feel that at least 2/3rds of MAGAts are nowhere near as extreme as their support of Trump would lead you to believe.

I know plenty of Trump supporters who have voted for Democratic Presidential candidates as recently as 2000 and still vote for the occasional Democrat in state and local races. However, I don't feel like typing out a wall of text right now explaining how I feel about this specific topic and I'm sure you don't feel like reading it, so I'll summarize it this way. They Democrats need to find and enact policies that help everyone instead of policies that specifically target key constituents in the party. When Democrats are whining about being unable to eliminate student debt and defending race and sex based affirmative action while arguing that preferences should exist indefinitely, it's not a good look. Then you layer on top of everything else the great Wall of Disinformation the GOP has built while the increasingly elitist Left abandons White working class voters altogether and it is no surprise why someone like Trump has inspired so many angry low-information voters.

It's bizarre to essentially repeat GOP talking points and then make a point about the GOP wall of disinformation. Sorry to break it to you but if you believe this you have mainlined the disinformation.

[Kraken]

The electric car thing still boggles my mind. The same idiots who want Biden's head on a platter because of "high gas prices" are the same ones bitching about the audacity of someone trying to sell cars that don't run on gas.

Truth. To imperfectly report something my car radio told me today, in the bluest states ~6% of new car sales are electric, while in the reddest states it's <2%. Granted, people in the reddest states are poorer than the bluest so that might explain as much as ideology. I didn't ask the radio about that.

[Unagi]

I think it's kinda a no-brainer why any relatively impoverished area may have no interest in electric vehicles (because they are absolutely way more expensive) and also want the price of gas to be very low.

Isn't that obvious?

Not to mention blue-collar jobs that involve any transportation, delivery, etm.

[Zaxxon]

I think it's kinda a no-brainer why any relatively impoverished area may have no interest in electric vehicles (because they are absolutely way more expensive) and also want the price of gas to be very low

The average BEV price is now almost exactly in line with the average new vehicle price. Which doesn't necessarily negate your point, as low-income places are not buying new cars en masse, but I had to put this out there. You take the average purchase price, add in the significant fuel/maintenance savings, and BEVs--for those that can swing the initial purchase--are on the whole cheaper than the average vehicle at this point.

In other words, the red/blue divide on BEVs is absolutely not a cost thing. It's a political thing.

People (the buying public) remain largely terrible at math, though.

[malchior]

It's political at the people level and the policy level. Blue states are actively trying to alter the mix right now. For example, NJ - no sales tax on 100% BEV. That's significant. If eligible for the federal tax credit you are talking much cheaper than a well-equipped mid-tier car. Red states? Relatively few incentives and they are sometimes even undermining electrification of transport at every turn.

[Blackhawk]

I'd be interested in a comparison of what types of vehicles the people in those areas are more likely to buy, and see the BEV statistics taking that into account.

[LordMortis]

That undermining will happen in the foreseeable future. Less gas consumed = less gas taxes = revenue will be sought after from EVs, especially when it comes to road maintenance. At 1% of vehicles on the road, changes will be largely political. When we start approaching some larger number it will become absolutely necessary. The shell game with tax credits to subsidize oil on one end and then tax it at upwards of 20% on the other to fund... often nearly everything... is going to get upended.

[GreenGoo]

Victoria in Australia added taxes to EVs to "make up for" the anticipated decrease in tax revenue from gasoline sales (which was supposedly ear marked for road maintenance).

Except EV's are less than 1% of sales in Victoria, no gasoline tax revenue had declined (yet) and that tax revenue had stopped being used for road maintenance years past.

It's all bullshit. Will tax revenue go down on gasoline? Of course. Will we find ways to make up those losses? Of course. And it's not like electricity is tax free currently. Tax revenue on electricity will obviously go up as tax revenue on gasoline goes down. I'm not saying they are equal, only that the lost tax revenue on gasoline won't happen in a vacuum and will be mitigated (at least somewhat) automatically.

How about we wait until the theoretical problem starts to show up before we decide solving it is too difficult and just keep the status quo?

[stessier]

I already pay $60/year as a road tax for my EVs in South Carolina. Our gas tax is $0.28, so my road tax is the equivalent of buying 215 gallons of gas/year.

[Zaxxon]

I already pay $60/year as a road tax for my EVs in South Carolina. Our gas tax is $0.28, so my road tax is the equivalent of buying 215 gallons of gas/year.

Similar here in CO.

On the cost/policy side, our purple state is doing a lot. In addition to the federal $7,500 credit, we have a $5k credit for all folks, plus an additional low-income credit and a further credit for trading in an old gas guzzler. The right buyer can get the right BEV for essentially half off.

[GreenGoo]

I think it's kinda a no-brainer why any relatively impoverished area may have no interest in electric vehicles (because they are absolutely way more expensive) and also want the price of gas to be very low.

Isn't that obvious?

Not to mention blue-collar jobs that involve any transportation, delivery, etm.

You can't buy used (i.e. cheaper, older) EVs until you're selling new EVs regularly and for several years. Price are quite volatile and will be for some time. You've got to start somewhere. They'll get their cheap used EV market eventually.

[Blackhawk]

I'd be interested in a comparison of what types of vehicles the people in those areas are more likely to buy, and see the BEV statistics taking that into account.

To clarify, now that I'm typing on a proper keyboard, disclaimer at the end: In this particular poor blue state, a significant portion of the most popular vehicles come in shapes and sizes that aren't as readily available in electric form (or at least that's the perception.) You're not coming to a red state and convincing people to give up their giant pick-up trucks. And around here, a lot of people would have trouble finding a place to charge their vehicles at night. Most homes don't have garages. Many don't even have driveways (people park on the street.) And if their wiring isn't up to the task, they can't afford to upgrade it (and given how many rent, they'd be paying to upgrade someone else's house.) For a family with multiple cars, it's a real concern.

Next, here's a map, centered on me, that shows every charging station nearby. The map covers about 80x60 miles.

Spoiler:

Plus, while the article specified only used cars, it's notable that in poor areas (like this one), a huge number of people can't do new. They do used. Often 10+ years used. For EVs, that isn't really a thing. And that means less demand for the infrastructure to be put into place to support new EVs.

And then politics lands on top of that. Politics is absolutely a major factor, but it isn't the only factor that keeps uptake low, at least around here.

Here's that disclaimer: I don't know much about EVs, as, again, I've never even been able to consider a new car, and used EVs aren't as available as used gas guzzlers. As such, I don't know how many of the factors I mentioned above are actually real concerns, and how many are just perception. In other words, I may be wrong. But then again, perception matters, and I'm probably better informed than most around here.

[Unagi]

I think it's kinda a no-brainer why any relatively impoverished area may have no interest in electric vehicles (because they are absolutely way more expensive) and also want the price of gas to be very low.

Isn't that obvious?

Not to mention blue-collar jobs that involve any transportation, delivery, etm.

You can't buy used (i.e. cheaper, older) EVs until you're selling new EVs regularly and for several years. Price are quite volatile and will be for some time. You've got to start somewhere. They'll get their cheap used EV market eventually.

Certainly true.
I'm just saying that it doesn't take much for me to understand why a lot of people are still looking only at the price of gas vs. buying an EV - they have their 'gas-car' already.

[stessier]

I think it's kinda a no-brainer why any relatively impoverished area may have no interest in electric vehicles (because they are absolutely way more expensive) and also want the price of gas to be very low.

Isn't that obvious?

Not to mention blue-collar jobs that involve any transportation, delivery, etm.

You can't buy used (i.e. cheaper, older) EVs until you're selling new EVs regularly and for several years. Price are quite volatile and will be for some time. You've got to start somewhere. They'll get their cheap used EV market eventually.

It'll be interesting to see how the used market develops. I'm a "buy and drive into the ground" kind of guy, so I anticipate having my EVs at least 15 years unless I just come in to a ton of money and don't care anymore. I don't think 20 would be unreasonable for the two that are just used for around the town driving. But I also acknowledge there are people who just roll equity from one car to the next as long as their payments don't change, so I might be an outlier.

[YellowKing]

I think there's a much simpler explanation than personal finances. Electric cars are associated with "being green" which is associated with "global warming" which is a liberal hoax. To approve of electric cars is tantamount to wearing a Greenpeace shirt and hugging a tree.