UsulofDoom wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:05 pm
All they seem to be saying is that he said the value of his assest are higher that they were. What is the crime?
When you borrow money, and say that your assets are worth more than they are, you have defrauded the people whose money you just borrowed.
defraud /dəˈfrôd,dəˈfräd/ illegally obtain money from (someone) by deception.
But should'nt the lender check assets before giving out a loan. Did he make up insurence docs or fake tax docs, that said it was worth more? That would then be a punisable crime.
I can say my house is worth billions since it is one of a kind, but a bank would not give me a loan for half a billion. Did he not pay back the loans.
Nothing is worth any thing till it's sold for a price.
If I make a grammar or spelling mistake, PM me. I will correct it. It’s better than you being an asshole!
No one knows the truth, only hypothesis, assumptions, conjectures, speculations, presumptions, guesses and theories.
We are not Gods, but nature. No more than one of many dominate species that will inhabit this planet for a short period of time, on its ever so long journey through the universe.
UsulofDoom wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:57 pm
Nothing is worth any thing till it's sold for a price.
Wait, are you suggesting that trying to financially defraud someone (or a bank) isn't a crime unless they verify your statements and prove them to be false?
UsulofDoom wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:57 pm
But should'nt the lender check assets before giving out a loan. Did he make up insurence docs or fake tax docs, that said it was worth more? That would then be a punisable crime.
Using this line of reasoning, grifters all over the world are innocent because someone didn't verify that they had a bridge to sell before they grabbed the cash?
You can't physically increase the size of your home threefold on paper to try and get a bigger loan. Period. That's fraud. You aren't innocent of a crime if someone failed to check up on your claims.
p.s. My car goes over 900 mph and gets roughly 3000 miles per gallon. Trust me on that. Can I put you down as a sale?
UsulofDoom wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:57 pm
Nothing is worth any thing till it's sold for a price.
Wait, are you suggesting that trying to financially defraud someone (or a bank) isn't a crime unless they verify your statements and prove them to be false?
Well, you have to add a disclaimer? Apparently if you did, yeah, you're home free. Or something.
UsulofDoom wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:57 pm
But should'nt the lender check assets before giving out a loan. Did he make up insurence docs or fake tax docs, that said it was worth more? That would then be a punisable crime.
Yes, he did. There are documents to prove it.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
UsulofDoom wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:57 pm
But should'nt the lender check assets before giving out a loan. Did he make up insurence docs or fake tax docs, that said it was worth more? That would then be a punisable crime.
I'm sure AG James is thankful you're backing her up.
The key is to ask Trump after any statement if he’s disclaiming them or certifying them as true.
If not, then they’re worthless as he admitted in court. You can’t trust someone whose statements are worthless.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
During her testimony, prosecutors asked Ivanka Trump, who left The Trump Organization in 2017 to join her father's White House administration and was initially named as a co-defendant in the trial, about emails she exchanged with Trump Organization executives.
She said she couldn't remember them, so the Attorney General's office entered documents into evidence to remind her, including an email she sent to Allen Weisselberg and other Trump Organization executives dated December 15, 2011.
"It doesn't get better than this. lets (sic) discuss asap (sic)," Ivanka wrote in the email.
At this point, Habba objected to the email being entered as evidence, claiming that it was never sent, The Messenger's Adam Klasfeld reported. Prosecutor Kevin Wallace told Habba that the document she objected to was one of her team's own documents.
During her testimony, prosecutors asked Ivanka Trump, who left The Trump Organization in 2017 to join her father's White House administration and was initially named as a co-defendant in the trial, about emails she exchanged with Trump Organization executives.
She said she couldn't remember them, so the Attorney General's office entered documents into evidence to remind her, including an email she sent to Allen Weisselberg and other Trump Organization executives dated December 15, 2011.
"It doesn't get better than this. lets (sic) discuss asap (sic)," Ivanka wrote in the email.
At this point, Habba objected to the email being entered as evidence, claiming that it was never sent, The Messenger's Adam Klasfeld reported. Prosecutor Kevin Wallace told Habba that the document she objected to was one of her team's own documents.
I remember there was a talk show Ivanka was on and she told a story about how her and her dad were walking into Trump Tower. He pointed to a homeless guy on the street and said, "You see that guy? He's got $2 billion more than I do."
The ruling Thursday by a four-judge panel rejected Trump's appeal and reinstated the orders against Trump and his lawyers, who'd repeatedly complained about the clerk in court.
Judge Arthur Engoron, who issued the gag orders, informed both sides of the appeals court's decision at the ongoing trial. "I intend to enforce the gag orders rigorously and vigorously and I want to make sure counsel informs their clients of the fact that the stay was vacated," he said
...
The orders only bar Trump and his attorneys from talking about court staff. They do not prevent Trump from criticizing Engoron or state Attorney General Letitia James' office, which brought the claims against him.
Will they actually enforce it outside of pointless fines is the real question? I'd love to see everyone freakout when he goes into jail for a weekend.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
Octavious wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:40 pm
Will they actually enforce it outside of pointless fines is the real question? I'd love to see everyone freakout when he goes into jail for a weekend.
Agreed. Contempt of Court is a very real thing, if my years of watching TV dramas is accurate...
"You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because you're all the same." ~Jonathan Davis
"The object of education is to prepare the young to educate themselves throughout their lives." ~Robert M. Hutchins
This is stupid. Trump is arguing that he did nothing wrong and his business conduct makes revocation of the authority to do business in NY improper. The misbehavior goes to his (lack of) credibility and the (im) propriety of his actions.
It’s like they’re trolling the judge to create error when the decision imposed a penalty for being guilty.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
In a letter to attorneys for Trump and New York Attorney General Letitia James just after noon Wednesday, Engoron said that Trump hasn’t agreed to conditions he set should the former president wish to give a statement.
“Not having heard from you by the third extended deadline (noon today), I assume that Mr. Trump will not agree to the reasonable, lawful limits I have imposed as a precondition to giving a closing statement above and beyond those given by his attorneys, and that, therefore, he will not be speaking in court tomorrow,” Engoron wrote.
Email correspondence shows the parties have been discussing the possibility of Trump participating in the closing arguments since at least last week.
...
Engoron offered Trump the opportunity to speak in his own defense closing argument but said the former president must agree to preset conditions that would limit what he can and cannot say. He would not be allowed to campaign, the judge said.
Engoron also said if Trump violated the gag order, he’d fine him and remove him from court.
“Thus, in my sole discretion, I will consent to let Mr. Trump make a closing argument if, and only if, through counsel by 1/9/2024, and by himself, personally, on the record, just before he speaks, he agrees to limit his subjects to what is permissible in a counsel’s closing argument, that is, commentary on the relevant, material facts that are in evidence, and application of the relevant law to those facts,” Engoron wrote in an email last week.
“He may not seek to introduce new evidence. He may not ‘testify.’ He may not comment on irrelevant matters,” Engoron wrote. “In particular, and without limitation, he may not deliver a campaign speech, and he may not impugn myself, my staff, plaintiff, plaintiff’s staff, or the New York State Court System, none of which is relevant to this case, and all of which, except commenting on my staff, can be done, and is being done, in other forums.”
Probably because he would have been yelling from the rooftops that the court system is rigged, had him silenced, wasn't allowed to speak as his own trial, etc...
Completely ignoring that there were conditions he needed to agree with first. Also, he's still going to say all of the above, regardless.
Basically the Judge said Trump can make a closing argument as long as he makes an actual closing argument and stays within the rules of a closing argument. Then he set out all of the normal rules for a closing argument and told Trump that he has to stay within them. Trump being Trump cried foul and said that he should be held to a totally different standard because he's Trump and called the Judge unfair. Typical Trump BS. The Judge 100% did the right thing on this issue and this issue will stand up to the eventual appeal.
It is ridiculous that he even tried this stunt. If you aren’t an attorney, you can’t close. If you don’t testify in the case because you have “nothing to say,” you can’t change your mind and try to sneak in testimony.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:28 pm
Probably because he would have been yelling from the rooftops that the court system is rigged, had him silenced, wasn't allowed to speak as his own trial, etc...
Completely ignoring that there were conditions he needed to agree with first. Also, he's still going to say all of the above, regardless.
Surprising (to me) that the judge changed his mind, given that:
-There was a 0% chance that it would go any way other than this once Trump was given a chance to speak
-There is a 100% chance that Trump will still cry foul for being stopped early/silenced
I guess Engoron must view having let this farce happen as marginally increasing the strength of this trial standing up to appeal?
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:28 pm
Probably because he would have been yelling from the rooftops that the court system is rigged, had him silenced, wasn't allowed to speak as his own trial, etc...
Completely ignoring that there were conditions he needed to agree with first. Also, he's still going to say all of the above, regardless.
Surprising (to me) that the judge changed his mind, given that:
-There was a 0% chance that it would go any way other than this once Trump was given a chance to speak
-There is a 100% chance that Trump will still cry foul for being stopped early/silenced
I guess Engoron must view having let this farce happen as marginally increasing the strength of this trial standing up to appeal?
I'm thinking it was pragmatic for that reason. The record will show he repeatedly bent over backwards to accommodate Trump and Trump can't follow rules. Pretty relevant when the case is about him and his organization not following rules.
malchior wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:43 pm
Pretty relevant when the case is about him and his organization not following rules.
It's weird because more and more his lawyers seem to have stop disputing whether or not he was following the rules and instead are simply now arguing that he's above the rules.
I don't see any downside to letting him talk. He's just going to go outside and scream the same nonsense outside so eh. If there was a jury it would be a different story. All he does is repeat the same nonsense over and over so shrug. I can't believe there are so many people that want to introduce this chaos demon into the country again. I will have to turn off myself from the world for 4 years and hope there's something left when it's over.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
The thing is, his supporters view having that convo IN the courtroom as further proof that Trump will stand up to their enemies. If he has it outside the courtroom, it has slightly less weight in light of that.
I'm of the mind that it doesn't matter what his supporters think. Spouting nonsense to the only person deciding your case is a super great strategy. I mean this will get dragged through appeals until we all die so does it even matter?
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
It matters because Trump’s actions in the courtroom support a finding that the Trump Organization can no longer be permitted to do business in the State. If you screw up every chance, the only option is a corporate death penalty.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
The judge who presided over a civil business fraud trial against Donald Trump and his company has issued his decision in the case.
Judge Arthur Engoron ordered the former president and the Trump Organization to pay over $350 million in damages, and bars Trump "from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years."
He also continued "the appointment of an Independent Monitor" and ordered "the installation of an Independent Director of Compliance" for the company.
The ruling also bars the Trump sons — who've been running the company since their father went to the White House — “from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years.”
I doubt Trump could scrape together $350...well of his own money. Im sure someone will donate.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
Trump Organization has a big red mark against it that will impact financial institutions’ willingness to finance deals. Simply reincorporating in Texas isn’t going to fix it, but his attorneys are likely either telling him what he wants to hear or too stupid to realize the fallout makes Trump radioactive in the business world.
If you’re a business person who gets defrauded by Trump, you’re now officially on notice he’s fraudulent due to NY. When that business deal goes bad, you had a duty to be careful around him. Your due diligence just went way up — and you can’t pretend to rely on him anymore. Few bankers are going to risk making a bad loan.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
I mean this will get dragged through appeals until we all die so does it even matter?
