Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

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Kraken
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Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by Kraken »

I hope this thread will sink into obscurity after November. But that's still a ways off, so The Atlantic took a look at how the US' European allies are bracing for the second coming of TFG.
In capitals across the continent—from Brussels to Berlin, Warsaw to Tallinn—leaders and diplomats expressed a sense of alarm bordering on panic at the prospect of Donald Trump’s reelection.

“We’re in a very precarious place,” one senior NATO official told me. He wasn’t supposed to talk about such things on the record, but it was hardly a secret. The largest armed conflict in Europe since World War II was grinding into its third year. The Ukrainian counteroffensive had failed, and Russia was gaining momentum. Sixty billion dollars in desperately needed military aid for Ukraine had been stalled for months in the dysfunctional U.S. Congress. And, perhaps most ominous, America—the country with by far the biggest military in NATO—appeared on the verge of reelecting a president who has repeatedly threatened to withdraw the U.S. from the alliance.

Fear of losing Europe’s most powerful ally has translated into a pathologically intense fixation on the U.S. presidential race. European officials can explain the Electoral College in granular detail and cite polling data from battleground states. Thomas Bagger, the state secretary in the German foreign ministry, told me that in a year when billions of people in dozens of countries around the world will get the chance to vote, “the only election all Europeans are interested in is the American election.” Almost every official I spoke with believed that Trump is going to win.
The article goes into some depth, as The Atlantic does, and is quite enlightening.
Whether Trump wins or not, there’s a growing consensus in Europe that the strain of American politics he represents—a throwback to the hard-edged isolationism of the 1920s and ’30s—isn’t going away. It’s become common in the past year for politicians to talk about the need for European “defense autonomy.”

“We can’t just flip a coin every four years and hope that Michigan voters will vote in the right direction,” Benjamin Haddad, a member of France’s National Assembly, said at an event earlier this year. “We have to take matters in our own hand.”
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waitingtoconnect
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by waitingtoconnect »

The world is different now.

We need friends. Trump is a fool to cast them off.
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LordMortis
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by LordMortis »

“We can’t just flip a coin every four years and hope that Michigan voters will vote in the right direction,” Benjamin Haddad, a member of France’s National Assembly, said at an event earlier this year. “We have to take matters in our own hand.”
:cry:
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Blackhawk
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by Blackhawk »

Externally enforced isolationism.

In other words, we're being sent to our room to think about what we've done.

We probably deserve it.
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El Guapo
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by El Guapo »

It makes sense, unfortunately. The European NATO countries need to be prepared to resist Russian aggression, potentially even to fight a war with Russia if it comes to that, without depending on the assistance of the U.S. The good news in this is that if Trump loses, the U.S. may still benefit from having European allies with stronger militaries. Also good that a Trump win doesn't necessarily mean Russia can roll over Eastern Europe with little opposition.

But you know...still a bad situation.
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by Smoove_B »

Hell of a thing publishing this the week of the 80th anniversary of D-Day.

EDIT: And yeah, I think it not only acknowledges the dangers of TFG but fully recognizes the dysfunction in Congress (regardless of the President).
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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El Guapo
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:55 pm Hell of a thing publishing this the week of the 80th anniversary of D-Day.

EDIT: And yeah, I think it not only acknowledges the dangers of TFG but fully recognizes the dysfunction in Congress (regardless of the President).
Yup. Even if Biden wins in November, NATO needs to plan for the next couple decades at least. Who is to say that Trump won't run again and win in 2028? Or even if he doesn't or can't, by 2028 being anti-NATO could be the standard GOP position. And the U.S. is almost institutionally incapable of entering into new, binding treaties of significance given the structure and state of the Senate.

The sad reality is that the U.S. won't be a reliable partner for some time, regardless of Trump himself.
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by gbasden »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:55 pm Hell of a thing publishing this the week of the 80th anniversary of D-Day.

EDIT: And yeah, I think it not only acknowledges the dangers of TFG but fully recognizes the dysfunction in Congress (regardless of the President) and half of the population of the U.S..
FTFY
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by Blackhawk »

Good point, but not half - barely a fraction of that. The majority of Americans don't care enough to vote one way or the other. If we got 100% voter turnout, we'd never have another (R) in office.
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gbasden
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by gbasden »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:23 pm Good point, but not half - barely a fraction of that. The majority of Americans don't care enough to vote one way or the other. If we got 100% voter turnout, we'd never have another (R) in office.
I would argue that those who cannot be bothered to vote in circumstances such as these are absolutely part of the problem and disfunction.
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by em2nought »

People sure don't like being told to pay their own way after having their hands in someone else's pockets for so long. :lol:
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waitingtoconnect
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by waitingtoconnect »

em2nought wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:10 am People sure don't like being told to pay their own way after having their hands in someone else's pockets for so long. :lol:
They don’t have their hands in our pockets.

The Europeans buy huge amounts of military equipment from us. If trump could pull support on those items they will make their own costing us billions in defence contracts. Right now Europe is spending more on defence - just not on us because they are scared trump will pull support if they need to use our stuff.

https://www.politico.eu/article/us-euro ... y-defense/

Our multinational companies own the economies of these countries.

By pulling out of NATO we abandon them and we show we no longer align with their values especially if we shift to a Putin style managed democracy. They will go their own way and our trade with them will drop. That trade to us is huge.

https://policy.trade.ec.europa.eu/eu-tr ... -states_en

https://theconversation.com/us-uk-trade ... get-152037

Why do China and Russia struggle on the world stage. They have no friends.
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em2nought
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by em2nought »

Way to embrace the military industrial complex merchants of death. Up is down & down is up. :lol:
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by hepcat »

It really is a bizarre place we find ourselves in today when Republicans under Trump now seek appeasement with Russia and hate NATO. Congratulations on becoming the 21st century party of Neville Chamberlain. Would you like to pledge allegiance to the Russian flag now or after the reveal?
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waitingtoconnect
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by waitingtoconnect »

Maybe we can just take Greenland off the Danes because trump wanted it. Drop all pretences and divide Europe up between us and the Russians and Chinese? That’ll stop them liberals.
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by YellowKing »

Ronald Reagan is probably spinning in his grave so hard he could generate enough clean energy to solve the climate crisis. For the "party of patriots" they sure have shat on the legacy of our veterans who fought so hard to protect us from the very dictators the Republicans are now cozying up to.

They fought for our freedom just so the GOP could sell it to the highest bidder.
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by Unagi »

It's frightening to think about how, if Trump and Putin had just managed to act like reasonable people for maybe 5 years, they could have truly wrapped this world up in a bow by now.

I swear, if we manage to pull out of this nose dive, it will only be because of how Putin and Trump's allignment were exposed -just in time- for a response to form.


IF
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Unagi
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Re: Need Another Treaty Organization? NATO's perilous future

Post by Unagi »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:18 am Ronald Reagan is probably spinning in his grave so hard he could generate enough clean energy to solve the climate crisis. For the "party of patriots" they sure have shat on the legacy of our veterans who fought so hard to protect us from the very dictators the Republicans are now cozying up to.

They fought for our freedom just so the GOP could sell it to the highest bidder.
you mean the legacy of our 'suckers' who fought so hard, etc. etc.
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