Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[Zaxxon]

Looks easy-peasy. Big Supercharger in Clyde that I think would be your main stop, then there's another in Lubbock and 2 others in the intervening spaces should you need/want a different stop.

[coopasonic]

Yeah. It’s getting to I-20 that kind of sucks. It may still be the way and I’m guessing you (Isg) have more experience with that trip.

[Isgrimnur]

I've made it a few times. I wouldn't recommend the H-82 route for you anyway. Too many speedbump towns and I know how you like your speed.

[GreenGoo]

...and I know how you like your speed.

[GreenGoo]

moving discussion here from Kraken's thread.

Anecdotes brushes off the individual situations as if they don't matter. It implied that they are probably only important to the person mentioning them because they aren't really thinking things through and seeing the truth of the averages. I disagree.

Anecdotes like "She forgot to plug it in" and "I drive over 100,000 miles a year".

Anecdotes can be useful. "I bought an EV and have to change the tires more often because of EV reasons". That might be a useful anecdote.

The kind of anecdotes I'm saying are irrelevant are the kind such as: "I live in an apartment building with no way to install a charger. Also, my town has 10,000 people and therefore has no infrastructure to rely on. EVs are bad".

The conclusion is not that EVs are bad. It's not even an EV con. It's no more an EV con than saying ICE cars need gas. Is it a con for the specific individual? Of course. But that makes it a personal con, not a con that is inherently a problem with EV cars themselves.

ICE cars have had over 100 years to build infrastructure in your country. EVs have had, what? 10? 15? years to begin to build some infrastructure? People are right when they say they are worried about finding a place to charge. Especially if charging at home is not an option. But as Zaxxon has shown time and time again, it's doable, and not even with much effort.

So no, peoples' anecdotes are not usually relevant. Some are. Some aren't. Most aren't. Anecdotes are at best a single data point, and often, not even that.

[GreenGoo]

this one too:

This reminds me of the OO'er who had to drive their neighbour to work because they forgot to plug in their EV. Somehow this was an indictment of EVs. I looked and over 400,000 people in that month alone had made AAA calls to boost their ICE battery because their cars wouldn't start. But one person forgets to plug in their EV and EVs aren't ready for prime time.

I believe that's my anecdote you're deliberately mischaracterizing. The point was not about the hardware. It was about the mental transition that some people aren't ready or willing to make. The lady in question hated her Tesla at that point. You could clearly argue that she was really mad at herself for putting herself in that position, but if you actually insist on telling a woman that her feelings are invalid, all I can say is good luck.

I mentioned elsewhere that we're looking for a replacement car for my mother-in-law whose car was totaled in an accident. Her driving habits would be an ideal use case for EV or plug in hybrid. There's zero chance of that happening. She'd like a car with no fancy screens. It's hard to change people.

I didn't mischaracterize anything. Mindset obviously plays a major role in change. Just because her reason for not liking EVs is bizarre and irrational, does not change the fact that she would vote to go back to an ICE vehicle on that poll mentioned earlier.

And let's be clear. Your neighbour is an idiot for blaming an inanimate object for her own mistake. What kind of person buys a product that needs a specific task to be done, understands that this task needs to be done, then doesn't do the task, then blames the product.

Seriously.

I'm normally far more understanding of simple mistakes, and am likely to make the same mistake she made in the future. Where my patience runs out is the complaining about her own behaviour as if it were not her fault, then complaining to her neighbour, then her neighbour propagating the story in discussions about EVs in such a way as to imply EVs are the problem.

Your story should have been something like "EVs need to be plugged in. My neighbour didn't and then she didn't have enough juice to drive to work. Now she doesn't like EVs".

I suppose my real point is that there is already so much politicizing and opinions based on emotions about EVs, that most discussions are focused on irrelevant nonsense. It gets in the way of discussion of some of the real cons of EVs. Anecdotes aren't overly helpful, particularly if they are irrelevant.

I don't like ICE cars. I didn't change the oil and the engine froze up and cost me thousands of dollars to repair. EVs don't even take oil! ICE cars are the problem. It's not a great argument and mostly irrelevant once the condition of ownership is identified.

Yes, EVs need to be plugged in. Noted.

[Zaxxon]

Hadn't even seen that thread yet.

The one piece of 'FUD' that I view as totally valid is the claim that if you can't plug in at home or work easily, you probably shouldn't get a BEV. I don't think that's universally true, but it largely negates one of the biggest advantages and introduces a significant downside, so for the masses it matters a lot. Virtually every other talking point against BEVs tends to largely disintegrate under informed scrutiny.

[Madmarcus]

Yeah, but your EV starts every day with a full tank. You will never have to worry about where you are going to fill up unless you are planning on driving more than 300 miles in a single trip.

Sorry, I am forced to dismiss this as an advantage of EVs because that is your personal anecdote.

See how silly that is? But it absolutely fits your criteria. It isn't a general EV advantage. An EV doesn't just refuel itself. It is a specific advantage of an EV for a person who has a dedicated charger that they can use daily in such a way that it refuels in parallel with other activities.

To me you sound like other car nuts I know raving about how great their Jeep, sports car, big truck, or whatever. I'm glad they love their X and am generally interested in hearing about what they love about it as long as they realize that it fits their needs and desires not everyone's needs and desires.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, but your EV starts every day with a full tank. You will never have to worry about where you are going to fill up unless you are planning on driving more than 300 miles in a single trip.

Sorry, I am forced to dismiss this as an advantage of EVs because that is your personal anecdote.

Do you know what an anecdote is?

[Madmarcus]

Do you know what an anecdote is?

Maybe not if you are using some weird definition.

The kind of anecdotes I'm saying are irrelevant are the kind such as: "I live in an apartment building with no way to install a charger. Also, my town has 10,000 people and therefore has no infrastructure to rely on. EVs are bad".

The conclusion is not that EVs are bad. It's not even an EV con. It's no more an EV con than saying ICE cars need gas. Is it a con for the specific individual? Of course. But that makes it a personal con, not a con that is inherently a problem with EV cars themselves.

"I live in an apartment building with no way to install a charger ... EVs are bad [with an imploded - for me and my situation since they started with an I statement]" is a dull anecdote but it's a small narrative about a situation so I'm willing to go with it being an anecdote.

"You always wake up to a full tank of gas" is even shorter but it's also a small narrative about a situation that is specific to a person who has ready access to a charger every night (or every day at work since that's more or less the same). You are certainly using it to imply that EVs are good even though it's not a inherently an advantage of EVs but only an advantage of an EV when that specific charging situation is met.

They are both one person describing their situation and stating or implying how it makes them feel about EVs.

[raydude]

Yeah, but your EV starts every day with a full tank. You will never have to worry about where you are going to fill up unless you are planning on driving more than 300 miles in a single trip.

Sorry, I am forced to dismiss this as an advantage of EVs because that is your personal anecdote.

Do you know what an anecdote is?

Would a reasonable person have bought an EV and also have access to a charging method which allows them to charge overnight? I would say "yes", therefore not an anecdote, because most reasonable people with EVs have done exactly this.

Would a reasonable person have bought an EV without access to a charger and then complain about their EV? I would say no, hence specific instance, hence anecdote.

[Madmarcus]

Would a reasonable person have bought an EV and also have access to a charging method which allows them to charge overnight? I would say "yes", therefore not an anecdote, because most reasonable people with EVs have done exactly this.

Would a reasonable person have bought an EV without access to a charger and then complain about their EV? I would say no, hence specific instance, hence anecdote.

Completely unconnected to EVs but you think an anecdote has something to do with reasonableness? That might change things; I've always considered anecdote as used to mean a short personal story about something. It might be a humorous anecdote, a surreal anecdote, a recitation of your view of events in anecdotal evidence, or just the little slice of life that you might tell your partner about your day. Emphasis on personal experiences and interpretations as opposed to an overall average view of things.

Anyway, I'm not really that concerned about how people want to use the word anecdote. I am concerned about the dismissal of any possible personal objection to wanting an EV as always wrong in the face of the obvious superiority of EVs in the average case. There are people who have completely irrational reasons that they are against EVs. There are others who have reasons that, for them, are perfectly rational and reasonable because they are not average users.

[Kurth]

My Tesla Model Y scheduled for a June delivery is nowhere to be found, but I did get the ChargePoint Level 2 charger installed this week. Last night I got the NACS to J1172 adapter for my daughter’s Hyundai Kona, and I tried it out. What a difference!

With a standard trickle charge, the Kona was going to move from 22% to 100% in 48.5 hours charging at 1.3 kWh.

With the ChargePoint, it charged to 100% in a little under 8 hours at 7.8 kWh.

Total cost was estimated to be $9.92 which I think equates to about 18 cents per kWh. That seems high, but we’re also in a heat wave in the PNW with temps in the upper 90s to low 100s, so I wonder if PGE is charging more.

[Zaxxon]

Sweet improvement.

Pro tip since you’re now in the club: kWh is a measure of energy. For power, which is what you’re referencing with the charging speed comparison, that’s kW.

Eg in just under 8 hours charging at 7.8 kW, you put ~60 kWh into the Kona battery.

[Kurth]

Sweet improvement.

Pro tip since you’re now in the club: kWh is a measure of energy. For power, which is what you’re referencing with the charging speed comparison, that’s kW.

Eg in just under 8 hours charging at 7.8 kW, you put ~60 kWh into the Kona battery.

My engineer son would have mocked me mercilessly for that, so I very much appreciate your generous characterization of that as a "pro tip."

In other news, Tesla is on my shit list, and I'm thinking of cancelling my lease and rethinking the used option. They went from estimating a June delivery to a July 1-11 delivery moving to today's update of a July-August delivery. That's crap. Unhappy with the entire Teslas purchasing/leasing experience thus far. This does not strike me as a company that is firing on all cylinders.

[Unagi]

This does not strike me as a company that is firing on all cylinders.

Or even a single one.

[Zaxxon]

This does not strike me as a company that is firing on all cylinders.

Or even a single one.

Well, it’d be weird if they were since that’s an ICE term.

But yeah, that sucks.

[Kurth]

This does not strike me as a company that is firing on all cylinders.

Or even a single one.

Well, it’d be weird if they were since that’s an ICE term.

But yeah, that sucks.

That was my lame attempt at EV humor.

[Kraken]

This does not strike me as a company that is firing on all cylinders.

Or even a single one.

Well, it’d be weird if they were since that’s an ICE term.

But yeah, that sucks.

That was my lame attempt at EV humor.

I snorted.

[Unagi]

This does not strike me as a company that is firing on all cylinders.

Or even a single one.

Well, it’d be weird if they were since that’s an ICE term.

But yeah, that sucks.

That was my lame attempt at EV humor.

I mean, yeah; I thought it was obvious.

[Zaxxon]

Lame? Now we’re bringing in horse-and-carriage jokes?

[The Meal]

We just completed our (relatively small) roadtrip for the summer, taking the long way to Kansas City (I-76 to I-80 to I-29 and in reverse). 12 stops for 3:03 (so 20 minutes per stop average) for 1512 miles at 270 Wh/mile.

They’ve expanded the supercharger network significantly across I-80 compared to our last trip. You love to see it. We did see one connector was busted but we never waited (or witnessed anyone else waiting, though we saw fully utilized stations four different times).

It was every bit as enjoyable as our Michigan summer of 2022 trip.

[Madmarcus]

It was every bit as enjoyable as our Michigan summer of 2022 trip.

Why do I have the nagging desire to look back and see if this is a sarcastic comment?

[The Meal]

On the home stretch last night :"This was our best road trip ever." "I totally agree."

[GreenGoo]

Not to get too personal but I love seeing the two of you smiling!

Plus positive EV anecdotes.

[The Meal]

Many more photos and observations at the original post (click the up arrow in the quote block).

Lots of smiles all around.

[coopasonic]

Looks easy-peasy. Big Supercharger in Clyde that I think would be your main stop, then there's another in Lubbock and 2 others in the intervening spaces should you need/want a different stop.

I don’t keep track Zaxxon style but we started at 98%, arrived at sweetwater with 11%, charged up to 70% and made it to Lubbock no problem. There is a Tesla service center in Lubbock that has much cheaper charging (0.23/kWh vs 0.34) at 250kW and also 3 cyber trucks in the lot that we checked out while we waited.

I may try 380 going home. I’ll see what the car recommends. I just want a different experience, not that I minded 75mph limits most of the way out here.

Interesting sight on the drive, didn’t get a pic but massive wind farms across much of the second half of the trip with resource extractors that I assume are oil pumps scattered around the same space.

[Isgrimnur]

Oil derricks

[Zaxxon]

More pylons!

[GreenGoo]

Test drove the Mach-E with the wife in the passenger seat. Pretty much what I expected.

Tried EV acceleration for the first time. I let up on the accelerator before it reached the floor. Wife got motion sickness and the g forces didn't play nice with my stomach either It's one thing to read about the acceleration, it's another to experience. Holy shit, is all I have to say about that.

Suspension a bit stiff after driving a minivan for years. Our old bones were not impressed by the state of the streets. Car felt smaller than I expected, and I expected it to feel small. In terms of "fun to drive" it was great, but overall I felt like I was in a smaller vehicle, because I was. Visibility was not great compared to minivan. Side mirrors were too small, imo. Rear view mirror was too, plus the car itself blocked way too much of the rear view, and the rear window felt small and narrow. Forward 120-180 degree view was great, but I was not a fan of looking in any other direction.

1 pedal driving was a new experience, but easily adjusted to, I think. Didn't feel like a big deal in terms of change.

Wife says interior space and rear storage space were both acceptable. In fact she said the car interior felt bigger than she expected. Mach-E's have a ton of headroom.

1 2023 left on the lot. Dealer incentive hard to turn down. Was about 12% off the top. Crazy. No extended battery on that one though.

Will drive the EV6 tomorrow or Thursday. I'm leaning towards the EV6, but that incentive. If it's gone (only 1 left) before I get back to Ford, that will make my decision easier. I'm not stressing about it.

[stessier]

I'm surprised you felt the side mirrors were too small. We went from a Town and Country to the Mach-E and I thought the visibility was comparable. I agree with the back window being small. In practice, though, it rarely matters as I use the big screen backup camera when in reverse. I think they missed an opportunity by not making the review mirror a camera like on the Bolt - I love that thing and never want to go back.

For the one pedal driving, did you put it in L or just use the minimal regen of D? And were you in Unbridled when driving around? That is by far my favorite mode. Finally, was it dark enough to see the ponies from the puddle lights? That party trick is always a crowd pleaser.

[Zaxxon]

I think they missed an opportunity by not making the review mirror a camera like on the Bolt - I love that thing and never want to go back.

Not as big a missed opportunity as the mirror in the Cybertruck, which is... completely blocked when the bed cover is closed, yet is not a camera.

Side note relevant to this thread: I saw that Electrify America is piloting a congestion program. Unlike Tesla, which defaults you to an 80% charge limit at high-use stations, EA is enforcing an 85% limit, with no way to charge higher. Seems like that's going to backfire if they don't adjust before the program goes wide. Sometimes you need the juice. I'd have preferred either a soft limit like Tesla uses, or maybe escalating costs as you get above 80% (so you're disincentivized from going higher, but can do so when you really need to).

And what's the point of stopping at 85%, only to leave a 10-min window before idle fees start? Kick that shit down to 5 min like Tesla does.

[stessier]

I might be an outlier, but idle fees should start in 2-3 minutes max. The app tells you when it's done - be there to move on. It's not hard.

[Zaxxon]

I might be an outlier, but idle fees should start in 2-3 minutes max. The app tells you when it's done - be there to move on. It's not hard.

Agreed. They should also be higher--Tesla is $1/min, while EA is (I think) $0.40/min. Not sure how other manufacturer apps work, but Tesla sends you a push notification 5 min before you're done, meaning even though idle fees start after 5 min on the Supercharger network, you've got 10 min between notification and idle fees.

[disarm]

I think they missed an opportunity by not making the review mirror a camera like on the Bolt - I love that thing and never want to go back.

My Ram 1500 has a rearview mirror camera and it's awesome. The advantage of having a windshield "mirror" with a wide view that is completely unobstructed by the rear seats and window Canton be understated. It took a long getting used to the way video looks compared to a mirror, but I can't imagine going back now.

Finally, was it dark enough to see the ponies from the puddle lights? That party trick is always a crowd pleaser.

My Audi Q7 had puddle lights on the front doors that projected the Audi rings on the ground. Totally pointless, but always got comments from anyone who noticed.

[GreenGoo]

I'm surprised you felt the side mirrors were too small. We went from a Town and Country to the Mach-E and I thought the visibility was comparable. I agree with the back window being small. In practice, though, it rarely matters as I use the big screen backup camera when in reverse. I think they missed an opportunity by not making the review mirror a camera like on the Bolt - I love that thing and never want to go back.

For the one pedal driving, did you put it in L or just use the minimal regen of D? And were you in Unbridled when driving around? That is by far my favorite mode. Finally, was it dark enough to see the ponies from the puddle lights? That party trick is always a crowd pleaser.

I would say the van's side view mirrors are about twice the area of the Mach-E's. I need to mention that I have not driven a modern car, like, ever. So I'm driving something that is well into it's second decade of existence. It's possible all side view mirrors are this size. I found them small. It felt like my view was restricted for no good reason. *shrug*.

I don't use my rear view mirror when backing up. I just turn my head to look. Now, with rear facing and 360 viewing cameras, I'll probably do that a lot less. I use my rear view mirror to keep track of what's happening behind me while I'm driving. Side views too. Situational awareness, I guess you'd call it. Not perfectly necessary but that's how I've driven my whole life. The limited (imo) views on the Mach-E made that noticeably more difficult. We'll see how the EV6 feels. It's probably just how cars are now, so not a specific criticism of the Mach-E.

I agree about that the rear view mirror should be a camera. I think that would go a long way to alleviate my issue here.

I was in "D" during my drive. I don't think I realized L existed. Whatever that is. We were in unbridled, although the dealer didn't mention it nor discuss what it was. I could guess though. Also Whisper mode. The one in the middle didn't make intuitive naming sense though. I assume it was somewhere in between the two settings.

And no, it was the middle of the day, so no puddle light ponies. I have some issues with the Mustang name (the short version is that I grew up in the 80's and they had several mustang branded cars that sucked), so I kind of wish the Mach-E was not branded as such. And because of this, I am not a fan of the pony icons, so the puddle light ponies are not a draw for me. Hah.

[GreenGoo]

I wouldn't mind looking at a 3rd car, although I admit I'm leaning hard toward the EV6. Anyone have suggestions in this price range/size range/range range?

I should have mentioned that the little tray on the Mach-E in front of the USB C/A plugs was a sticking point for my wife. She likes to put things on the ground in the van right there, so that annoyed her, plus if she said "it looks cheap" one more time, I was going to bang my head on the steering wheel. I pointed out the van's cheap plastic fold out drink holders, but "that's different". The bottom line is she doesn't see any use for that tray, despite the fact that a phone will be sync'd with the car and needing a place to keep charge. That whole concept is new to her (me too, actually) so the idea doesn't register.

Anyway, any EV suggestions besides the EV6 and Mach-E? I saw Mazda has a fully electric (most of theirs are hybrids of one sort or another) MX-30 but it was a 2 door, which is too small for us.

[stessier]

Without going to back to re-read if you have an issue with Tesla, the Model Y is basically the Mach-E in size. The Chevy Equinox should also be of similar size, although not sure if they are available up in your neck of the woods yet (my caution on this one is that it doesn't have Android Auto or Apple Car Play, but it also sounds like that might not matter to you given where you are coming from).

[Zaxxon]

I mean, the obvious third choice would be the Model Y, but I think you mentioned you've ruled out Tesla. There's a reason it's the world's best-selling car, though.

I would say the van's side view mirrors are about twice the area of the Mach-E's. I need to mention that I have not driven a modern car, like, ever. So I'm driving something that is well into it's second decade of existence. It's possible all side view mirrors are this size. I found them small. It felt like my view was restricted for no good reason. *shrug*.

Given that description, I would guess that you'll find all 'modern' cars' side mirrors uncomfortably small. Shrinking side mirrors and their associated terrible, horrible, very not-good aerodynamic impact is one way that manufacturers have raised efficiency on newer vehicles.

[Carpet_pissr]

I wouldn't mind looking at a 3rd car, although I admit I'm leaning hard toward the EV6. Anyone have suggestions in this price range/size range/range range?

I should have mentioned that the little tray on the Mach-E in front of the USB C/A plugs was a sticking point for my wife. She likes to put things on the ground in the van right there, so that annoyed her, plus if she said "it looks cheap" one more time, I was going to bang my head on the steering wheel. I pointed out the van's cheap plastic fold out drink holders, but "that's different". The bottom line is she doesn't see any use for that tray, despite the fact that a phone will be sync'd with the car and needing a place to keep charge. That whole concept is new to her (me too, actually) so the idea doesn't register.

Anyway, any EV suggestions besides the EV6 and Mach-E? I saw Mazda has a fully electric (most of theirs are hybrids of one sort or another) MX-30 but it was a 2 door, which is too small for us.

EV9 if you thought the Mach was small (I passed on the Mach as well for same reason (and that I couldn't get one when I needed a car). Edmunds rates it as their #1 vehicle, not even counting the electrified piece.

Have you considered a hybrid minivan? The Toyota Sienna is supposed to be top of class and the gas mileage on those is absurd considering the size and weight. Edmunds says the Chrysler Pacifica hybrid (PLUG IN) is the #1 minivan now, however. A plug in minivan would be awesome IMO. Available for $7500 federal tax credit as well. and "Excellent all-around visibility" You get 32-36 miles of full electric range before the hybrid kicks in. Personally I would have to dig a lot into the reliability before I would consider a Chrysler, because I just have a negative personal bias against the brand for some reason (low quality, cheap, etc, no idea why)

Personally, if I were in that price range, I would probably just step up to the all electric EV9 (which is still more $$, but close enough, if all electric makes sense for your driving/area).