Abortion news and discussion

[Smoove_B]

Maybe it's because I'm just sort of randomly joining discussions here, but I guess I'm not seeing what you're saying? I'm not saying it's not happening, but I don't feel like the "tone" here has changed all that much - at least not in a decade+ since the reorg.

[YellowKing]

May I ask what the trigger was? I'm trying to figure out if someone here was attacking someone else, because of course I agree that should be a no-no.

If the thought is to tone down generic anger which is directed at the general situation, I think we all are guilty (me in particular) of getting hot under the collar about certain issues. But we're also communicating in text which is a terrible indicator of tone. What I might type as exasperated snark may come across to someone else as accusatory anger. FWIW, I am almost never angry enough by anything anyone says on these boards to even register an elevated heartrate. Hell, em2nought and I are about as far apart as you can get, but we get along just fine outside R&P.

I'm kind of the mind that if politics in general are making you that anxious, step away from it. That's not directed at you Blackhawk, but in general. I've got a really good friend who has severe anxiety who is about to lose his mind over the recent political events, and I've had to keep telling him to stop spending 24/7 staring at headlines and political tweets. He's literally driving himself insane about things completely beyond his control.

I personally enjoy the discussion here; it makes me think and I find the arguments/counter-arguments and interaction challenging.

[Alefroth]

If someone is being told they can't be who they are, or love who they want, or do what they want with their bodies, or are lesser because of their skin color, anger and hatred are valid feelings and I'm not going to tell them not to have them.

[LawBeefaroni]

Those weren't the kinds of views I was discussing. There's a big difference between them not letting anyone eat meat, and them accepting killing human babies (from their perspective.)

It's very layered and nuanced but the bottom line for me is that their concern for other human lives tends to end as soon as a baby is born. All the teeth gnashing about killing the unborn rings really hollow when they offer zero support once they've virtue signaled that abortion is wrong but couldn't care less about the lives of children that aren't their own.

It's the inconsistency that reveals the bullsit. Abortion is just a great issue to rally support behind (both ways). It's not about saving lives, it's about tribe and party.

Now for the base, sure they can have honest beliefs and a consistent moral compass but they're just the chattel being used by party leadership.

[YellowKing]

It's not about saving lives, it's about tribe and party.

And making women subservient. There is no way in hell Republicans would ever allow the federal government to tell a man what he could and couldn't do with his body.

[gbasden]

Maybe because "compromise" increasingly feels like this? (different topic, but you get the point)

This. Though there is 1) an increasing "progressive" faction (or perhaps the same amount getting louder) that is more extreme and 2) "the Civil Rights" side is acting more and more entitled to my support and I don't accept that, even if I'm stuck with it. "The bright side" is that will make me more and more willing to compromise if the "kill black people" side ever come off the ledge and cease to be that side.

I know I'm just catching up and this was a while ago, but I'm not sure I get you. Are you really upset by civil rights? Why would you choose to be on the side of the KKK? I'm mightily confused.

[hepcat]

But you don't speak Lord Mortis. Come to think of it, I only know of one person who speaks Lord Mortis. And that would be Lord Mortis.

[hepcat]

I said to consider and try to understand the other side's perspective. I never said to accept hateful views (something I've been accused of twice.) I never said to tolerate hateful views. I said to give some thought as to which views are hateful, and which are coming from some seed of benevolence.

I don't think you're suggesting we try to accept/tolerate hateful views (and I don't think anyone has accused you of that).

If someone's religious views (for example) are telling them to not eat meat on Friday, terrific - you do you. If their religious views are telling them to make sure no one can eat meat on Friday, they can get bent. I don't have to understand why someone's religious views make them dress a certain way or require a specific type of practice. I should respect it; I feel I do respect it. However, when their views push up against human rights -or- require them to tell me (or others) how to exist, then we have problems.

Those weren't the kinds of views I was discussing. There's a big difference between them not letting anyone eat meat, and them accepting killing human babies (from their perspective.)

In any case, like I said, I surrender. My views have never been particularly practical on the large scale, but I had to say something. I've had about all I can handle of the hatred and anger. It's spilled over into every other facet of life. People can't seem to disagree on anything without it turning personal these days. People can't discuss their favorite show without someone showing up to insult it. The anger is everywhere, from the grocery store to gaming threads on OO, to bouncing around in my own heart.

I have had all of it that I can handle. I can barely stand to be around people anymore because of it - even people whose views I agree with can't discuss the issues with the like-minded without insults and bile being added just because it feels good to attack. It's pervasive, and everyone (not just here) seems to prefer it that way.

I've reached my personal limit, and it's wiping me out.

I think the issue might not be so much external as it is internal. I believe talking to someone IRL might help. You've been growing more and more agitated and upset the last few months with many folks over things that I would consider minor disagreements or just differences of opinions, and it looks like it's taking its toll on you. Before assuming that everyone else is the problem, it helps to consider the option that perhaps you're just angry or bothered by something else in your life/world. I know I can bring baggage to the board (and other areas of my life), so it's not a sign of weakness. We're all just human.

[LordMortis]

Maybe because "compromise" increasingly feels like this? (different topic, but you get the point)

This. Though there is 1) an increasing "progressive" faction (or perhaps the same amount getting louder) that is more extreme and 2) "the Civil Rights" side is acting more and more entitled to my support and I don't accept that, even if I'm stuck with it. "The bright side" is that will make me more and more willing to compromise if the "kill black people" side ever come off the ledge and cease to be that side.

I know I'm just catching up and this was a while ago, but I'm not sure I get you. Are you really upset by civil rights? Why would you choose to be on the side of the KKK? I'm mightily confused.

There was a whole context there that got left out. But no, even without context, "the Civil Rights" is not entitled to my vote at any cost and demanding that they are only makes it easier to look for a better choice.

[hepcat]

I mean, what context can you add to disagreeing with "I think everyone should be treated equally", which should be the core platform in any civil rights discussion?

Or are you saying that the struggle for equality is sometimes co opted by interests that are actually not such?

[gbasden]

I mean, what context can you add to disagreeing with "I think everyone should be treated equally", which should be the core platform in any civil rights discussion?

Or are you saying that the struggle for equality is sometimes co opted by interests that are actually not such?

Right, that's what has me confused. I don't think LM longs for the days of Jim Crow, but I'm not following what he's upset about.

[hepcat]

I'm assuming it's the latter.

[Smoove_B]

Reinforcing how important it will be to vote in November:

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) — Iowa’s strict abortion law went into effect Monday, immediately prohibiting most abortions after about six weeks of pregnancy, before many women know they are pregnant.

Iowa’s Republican leaders have been seeking the law for years and gained momentum after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022. The Iowa Supreme Court also issued a ruling that year saying there was no constitutional right to abortion in the state.

...

Now, across the country, four states ban abortions after about six weeks of pregnancy, and 14 states have near-total bans at all stages of pregnancy.

To that end:

The Harris campaign released a video Monday to draw attention to the issue as Iowa’s law becomes enforceable.

“What we need to do is vote,” she said. “When I am President of the United States, I will sign into law the protections for reproductive freedom.”

[raydude]

More personally affected men are speaking up about abortion in Red states.

“The silver lining of Dobbs is that it forced people to talk about what was stigmatized and shrouded in mystery — miscarriage, fetal anomalies, stillbirth,” she said. They’re now realizing the range of scenarios that can be directly impacted by state bans “and the end of this illusion that you can separate elective abortion from emergency abortions.”

I'm happy that this is happening but at the same time I'm shaking my head thinking 'why does it have to wait until people are personally affected?' In any case, good for them and I'll take any allies we can get. Even late ones.

[Isgrimnur]

To me, the most interesting thing we've ever discussed on this topic was that stuff about "Dunbar's Number". Where there is a theoretical limit (150) of the number of people we can see as complex individuals... and after that it's all stereotypes and objectifying. We don't care about shit outside our Monkeysphere.

[Punisher]

More personally affected men are speaking up about abortion in Red states.

“The silver lining of Dobbs is that it forced people to talk about what was stigmatized and shrouded in mystery — miscarriage, fetal anomalies, stillbirth,” she said. They’re now realizing the range of scenarios that can be directly impacted by state bans “and the end of this illusion that you can separate elective abortion from emergency abortions.”

I'm happy that this is happening but at the same time I'm shaking my head thinking 'why does it have to wait until people are personally affected?' In any case, good for them and I'll take any allies we can get. Even late ones.

There is that poem f4om, I think, WW2. The one that ends with, when they came gor me there was noby left, or something like thst.
Humanity as a whole doesn't understand that poem I tjink.

[Isgrimnur]

Martin Niemöller

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Punisher]

Martin Niemöller

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

I knew I could count on you!
You never disappoint!

[Isgrimnur]

I live to serve.

[waitingtoconnect]

More personally affected men are speaking up about abortion in Red states.

“The silver lining of Dobbs is that it forced people to talk about what was stigmatized and shrouded in mystery — miscarriage, fetal anomalies, stillbirth,” she said. They’re now realizing the range of scenarios that can be directly impacted by state bans “and the end of this illusion that you can separate elective abortion from emergency abortions.”

I'm happy that this is happening but at the same time I'm shaking my head thinking 'why does it have to wait until people are personally affected?' In any case, good for them and I'll take any allies we can get. Even late ones.

There is that poem f4om, I think, WW2. The one that ends with, when they came gor me there was noby left, or something like thst.
Humanity as a whole doesn't understand that poem I tjink.

Trump seems to tell that poem all the time at his rallies about himself.

It’s funny how in the most rural states people don’t understand pregnancy and how it can go wrong. With your animals you save the mother’s life if it’s going wrong to stop her suffering and because you need her to be able to breed next season - why do humans get lesser treatment?

Pre roe being overturned I recall an American woman who was going through miscarriage in Malta. There doctors cannot intervene and she was saying how she was getting messages on her social media from the states telling her that god would save her baby of she just had faith. This while she was dying because an emergency abortion necessary to assist completion of the miscarriage was forbidden by law.

Thats the mentality in evangeical religions - pregnancy is gods process and can’t be interfered with. However this is not the belief in Abrahamic religion all of which make allowance to save the life of the mother. This is because all of them are founded by agricultural peoples who herded animals so they understood the mother’s life is paramount over the baby.

[YellowKing]

I, for one, am tired of my life and my family's life being dictated by an ancient book and a deity I don't believe in.

[Zarathud]

A diety who called for Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

[GreenGoo]

A diety who called for Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Not to mention what he asked of his own son.

[Blackhawk]

Abraham? Pfft. Job would have loved to face what Abraham did.

[GreenGoo]

Abraham? Pfft. Job would have loved to face what Abraham did.

But at least god had a good reason to put Job through all that.

[Blackhawk]

Yes. A loyalty test. "I'm gonna go ahead and slaughter your entire family. If you point the blame at yourself instead of me, you win!"

[GreenGoo]

Yes. A loyalty test. "I'm gonna go ahead and slaughter your entire family. If you point the blame at yourself instead of me, you win!"

Right. Job shouldn't have given god reason to doubt his loyalty, otherwise he wouldn't have had to make the test so difficult. I'm sure Job wondered how his loyalty came under such scrutiny.

[waitingtoconnect]

Most of our “religious” beliefs on abortion have only arisen with the microscope and evidence of fertilisation.

Abortion laws came in due to a desire to constrain the initial attempts at women’s rights in the 19th century but also to protect the monopoly on healthcare of the emerging medical profession.

Before the 19th century abortion was largely legal before the woman felt the baby move- a time called quickening. Prominent doctors, all men of course, stated that women couldn’t be trusted to know when quickening was with certainty as instead the microscopic proof should be trusted instead. Religions latched on and the rest is history.

[Punisher]

Most of our “religious” beliefs on abortion have only arisen with the microscope and evidence of fertilisation.

Abortion laws came in due to a desire to constrain the initial attempts at women’s rights in the 19th century but also to protect the monopoly on healthcare of the emerging medical profession.

Before the 19th century abortion was largely legal before the woman felt the baby move- a time called quickening. Prominent doctors, all men of course, stated that women couldn’t be trusted to know when quickening was with certainty as instead the microscopic proof should be trusted instead. Religions latched on and the rest is history.

So they thought women were immortal and there could only be one in the end?

[waitingtoconnect]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlan ... Quickening

They are different but as an aside Highlander II was set in 2024!

[Isgrimnur]

The Bell Riots started last week.

[hepcat]

All my fellow nerds were posting that on Facebook recently.

[Isgrimnur]

Georgia

Georgia judge on Monday struck down the state’s abortion law, which took effect in 2022 and effectively prohibited abortions beyond about six weeks of pregnancy.

Fulton County Superior Court Judge Robert McBurney wrote in his order that the law violates Georgia’s Constitution, finding that “liberty in Georgia includes in its meaning, in its protections, and in its bundle of rights the power of a woman to control her own body, to decide what happens to it and in it, and to reject state interference with her healthcare choices.”
...
McBurney’s ruling would allow abortions through at least 20 weeks of pregnancy.
...
Kara Murray, a spokesperson for Georgia Attorney General Chris Carr, said he would immediately appeal to the state supreme court. The state high court earlier reversed a separate ruling by McBurney that had struck down the law on different grounds and could put Monday’s ruling on hold pending an appeal.

[hepcat]

Melanoma…er…Melania comes out in support of abortion rights.



There are two possible reasons for this sudden contrarian position to the conservative platform:

1) She tried to renegotiate her prenup again, but Donny wouldn’t meet her rate increase. So she made good on a threat to embarrass him.

2) Donny wants to support abortion rights via Melanoma…er Melania as a proxy while still giving his base the feeling he’s against abortion.

Both are still proof Melanoma…er Melania is a trash person.

And god, that baby doll voice is like friggin’ nails on a chalkboard.

[$iljanus]

Well, because Donald has the Evangelical vote wrapped up he can afford to send out Melancholia to talk up her “pro choice” credentials. Sort of like Vance talking sympathetically about the friend who had an abortion. I’m sure it will go far in reassuring women…

What Melancholia should have said was, “I support the right to choose but when abortion is banned what’s so hard about flying to another country to get it done? First class tickets of course since I, umm I mean you deserve it!”

[waitingtoconnect]

In the word of the immortal admiral Akbar… It’s a trap…

Abortion is only for rich attractive women whose (social) lives are in danger.

[hepcat]

Little Napoleon DeSantis is now threatening tv stations airing ads supporting abortion rights.

[Daehawk]

It just means she can say her own thing in her book. Donny doesn't read books so she is safe.

[Blackhawk]

Little Napoleon DeSantis is now threatening tv stations airing ads supporting abortion rights.

That's just straight-up Putin shit, along with the linked article about him sending his special police to interrogate people who signed a ballot he didn't like.

How long until people start 'slipping' when near windows?

[Daveman]

I wasn't sure what thread to post this in, but yesterday I was home early and had the TV on in the background. Our broadcast channels are in Philadelphia so for some time now 80% of the ads are all political. Thanks Pennsylvania.

So a commercial break comes up and the screen goes black, displaying a brief message essentially saying the station is legally obligated to air the following political ad unedited or censored. The images might be disturbing.

The political "ad" was nothing but a brief slideshow of what I assume were late-term aborted babies. It was very graphic and disturbing. I don't recall if there was much said over this display except at the end when they said something like "a vote for Harris is a vote for killing babies."

It was for the Constitution Party candidate Randall Terry and presumably he's running to get these ads on the air and hopefully deter some people from Harris. Whole thing just made me want to punch the guy.