Who will be Kamala's VP?

[The Meal]

SoS was my first thought for PB, but *assuming* the long game, then maybe a diplomatic placement early on makes more sense than straight-to-the-cabinet. I agree that he's more top-of-the-ticket than veep-worthy.

BIG ASSUMPTIONS HERE, of course. Let's see how November (and December, and January...) play out before planning the parade route.

[Newcastle]

I suspect that news about Shapiro is going to disqualify him [ the sex harassment] and paper on the palestinian people. [Even though it was close to 30 years ago]. Michigan has a large Muslim population and that could alienate them in a swing state. Just one of the angles to ponder.

Would really be ok with Waltz because I think he could really communicate well with the rural and red state voters.

[Kraken]

I'm wondering about Buttigieg as Secretary of State.

On the one hand, he's a world-class communicator who does his homework on every issue and speaks French, Spanish, and Arabic pretty well. On the other hand, it's usually expected that the SoS comes from a background in the diplomatic corps or else a congressional career focused on foreign relations. (Trump had Tillerson and Pompeo, but then Trump's diplomacy was mostly concerned with Trump profits.)

Any thoughts?

"Diplomatic" is not a word I would associate with Buttigieg.

[Holman]

Harris is expected to make her VP announcement tomorrow (Monday) prior to 5pm. This makes the evening news, and then the swing-state tour starts Tuesday.

The whole press corps is on leak watch.

[Unagi]

And I had not considered the outshining Harris angle…that feels right. He can speak circles around her (she can very quickly get into word salad, and I’ve never heard him do that), but it’s not like they would be debating or anything, so ?? Personally would also love to see him top of ticket in 4 or 8 years.

I know there is a big push from the GOP to paint this picture, so it stood out to me when I read you writing it.

Can you find or share an example of Harris "very quickly getting into word salad"?, cause I suspect that's entirely GOP projecting - and recycled Biden mud.

[Carpet_pissr]

I'm wondering about Buttigieg as Secretary of State.

On the one hand, he's a world-class communicator who does his homework on every issue and speaks French, Spanish, and Arabic pretty well. On the other hand, it's usually expected that the SoS comes from a background in the diplomatic corps or else a congressional career focused on foreign relations. (Trump had Tillerson and Pompeo, but then Trump's diplomacy was mostly concerned with Trump profits.)

Any thoughts?

I like this a lot, and would prep him more for an eventual presidential run I think than Transpo Sec.

[Carpet_pissr]

And I had not considered the outshining Harris angle…that feels right. He can speak circles around her (she can very quickly get into word salad, and I’ve never heard him do that), but it’s not like they would be debating or anything, so ?? Personally would also love to see him top of ticket in 4 or 8 years.

I know there is a big push from the GOP to paint this picture, so it stood out to me when I read you writing it.

Can you find or share an example of Harris "very quickly getting into word salad"?, cause I suspect that's entirely GOP projecting - and recycled Biden mud.

I can't, but I have seen several instances where she is just saying...nothing and gobbledygook - always when answering questions, so I think it may be a "thinking on the fly" thing. Or maybe it's when she's asked hard questions, not sure.
I can assure you that I am very aware of and tuned into the GOP messaging machine, unfortunately. Or rather, I hear the results of their messaging via people I know, not that I watch FOX News like Jon Stewart, for material.
Edit: aware and vigilant, in case that was not clear

[Unagi]

And I had not considered the outshining Harris angle…that feels right. He can speak circles around her (she can very quickly get into word salad, and I’ve never heard him do that), but it’s not like they would be debating or anything, so ?? Personally would also love to see him top of ticket in 4 or 8 years.

I know there is a big push from the GOP to paint this picture, so it stood out to me when I read you writing it.

Can you find or share an example of Harris "very quickly getting into word salad"?, cause I suspect that's entirely GOP projecting - and recycled Biden mud.

I can't, but I have seen several instances where she is just saying...nothing and gobbledygook - always when answering questions, so I think it may be a "thinking on the fly" thing. Or maybe it's when she's asked hard questions, not sure.
I can assure you that I am very aware of and tuned into the GOP messaging machine, unfortunately. Or rather, I hear the results of their messaging via people I know, not that I watch FOX News like Jon Stewart, for material.
Edit: aware and vigilant, in case that was not clear

Is it possible that she is just talking fast about something she knows about and is just sounding confusing to the layman?

In any case, if you ever, in the future, see something you think shows it - I would love to see what "people are talking about" in this case.

[El Guapo]

My money right now is on Shapiro getting picked.

But of course, Harris is the decider here, and we have little insight into what she's thinking, so hard to say for sure.

[Kurth]

NYT on the scene with its “Democrats in Disarray” narrative this morning:

Harris Faces Party Divisions as She Chooses a Running Mate
The vice president conducted interviews with potential candidates over the weekend and has fielded concerns from donors and activists over the choice.

I really hope this is a bunch of fabricated BS, but if progressives throw a hissy fit about Shapiro or Kelly not being liberal enough for them, I’m done.

The final stage of the campaign to be Vice President Kamala Harris’s running mate reached something of an ugly phase in recent days as donors, interest groups and political rivals from the party’s moderate and progressive wings lobbied for their preferred candidates and passed around memos debating the contenders’ political weaknesses with key demographics.

Progressive groups have trained their criticisms on Mr. Shapiro and Mr. Kelly, who they accuse of being too conservative on key issues. Shawn Fain, the president of the United Automobile Workers union, said during a Sunday interview on CBS that Mr. Kelly had “not really” assuaged the union’s concerns about his commitment to pro-labor legislation and that the organization had “bigger issues” with Mr. Shapiro’s support for school vouchers.

Another group of progressive activists, communicating through an email group called Gamechanger Salon, have come out against Mr. Shapiro and pushed its members to highlight his stances on Israel’s military campaign in Gaza. The debate grew heated during a discussion about whether using the phrase “Genocide Josh” to describe Mr. Shapiro, who is an observant Jew, was antisemitic. An organizer called for calm and rebranded the email chain as “Why Josh Shapiro should not be the VP.” Some of the emails also called for members to push for Mr. Walz, who has become a favorite of the party’s most liberal contributors, about 60 of whom he addressed on Friday.

“Genocide Josh” . . . Who are these clowns and how could they possibly hold power?

[ImLawBoy]

If the disarray following the VP pick is anything like the disarray that followed Biden's withdrawal, I'll be pretty happy. I'm not sure I'm buying NYT's prediction of chaos here.

[Unagi]

Honestly, this is more-or-less how the sausage is made.

Right?
I mean, I actually hope they are having some raw, open, and possibly heated discussions about what could or couldn't help the campaign win the presidency. I mean, my wife and I even throw around all of the options - all up and down each argument for all of them. (We both still can't figure out who would be 'best')

[Kurth]

Honestly, this is more-or-less how the sausage is made.

Right?
I mean, I actually hope they are having some raw, open, and possibly heated discussions about what could or couldn't help the campaign win the presidency. I mean, my wife and I even throw around all of the options - all up and down each argument for all of them. (We both still can't figure out who would be 'best')

That’s fine and appropriate and healthy. What’s not healthy is if people are threatening to withhold support if their preferred choice isn’t the selection. I hope that’s not happening, although the comments posted on that NYT article might suggest otherwise.

[Unagi]

I agree that that would be ridiculous. I'd like to think it's not the case. To suddenly drop support for the Harris campaign for picking anyone in the current line-up would be (I very much hope), nearly unthinkable... I mean, compared to the thought that the NYT wants to unsettle the Democrat's game - which are the two things I'm weighing.

[Jaymann]

When did the NYT become the National Enquirer? Even Murdoch is distancing from DonOld.

[YellowKing]

It would be particularly ridiculous since they apparently had no real problem with Harris being the nominee, but would suddenly take their ball and go home if the VP pick wasn't to their liking? That doesn't make any sense at all. I think it's a bunch of bluster and posturing.

[Carpet_pissr]

And I had not considered the outshining Harris angle…that feels right. He can speak circles around her (she can very quickly get into word salad, and I’ve never heard him do that), but it’s not like they would be debating or anything, so ?? Personally would also love to see him top of ticket in 4 or 8 years.

I know there is a big push from the GOP to paint this picture, so it stood out to me when I read you writing it.

Can you find or share an example of Harris "very quickly getting into word salad"?, cause I suspect that's entirely GOP projecting - and recycled Biden mud.

I can't, but I have seen several instances where she is just saying...nothing and gobbledygook - always when answering questions, so I think it may be a "thinking on the fly" thing. Or maybe it's when she's asked hard questions, not sure.
I can assure you that I am very aware of and tuned into the GOP messaging machine, unfortunately. Or rather, I hear the results of their messaging via people I know, not that I watch FOX News like Jon Stewart, for material.
Edit: aware and vigilant, in case that was not clear

Is it possible that she is just talking fast about something she knows about and is just sounding confusing to the layman?

In any case, if you ever, in the future, see something you think shows it - I would love to see what "people are talking about" in this case.

Hrm. You're just going to have to trust that I have a critical thinking brain, I guess, and can suss out RW propaganda vs seeing and hearing things with my own eyes and ears. This is not a "people say" situation. It's several instances where I was watching either an interview with her, or a speech, or whatnot (also this is not recent, or I would try and track down the examples...I would not even know where to start to search), and I was practically grimacing. FWIW I hesitatingly voted for her in the D primary for the 2020 election, so it's not what I feel like you may be suggesting.

Also, where Trump's word salad, nonsensical BS is 0/10, being the worst I have ever heard in my life, and say...Obama or Buttigieg or someone like that being a 10 (maybe also that R governor from was it Mass?...complete straight talker, no word mincing, etc), she is a 7 or 8 IMO, for some perspective.

[Carpet_pissr]

Is it possible that she is just talking fast about something she knows about and is just sounding confusing to the layman?

No.

[Jaymann]

She doesn't have the strongest speaking voice. But she has good timing and does well with what she has.

[El Guapo]

Honestly, this is more-or-less how the sausage is made.

Right?
I mean, I actually hope they are having some raw, open, and possibly heated discussions about what could or couldn't help the campaign win the presidency. I mean, my wife and I even throw around all of the options - all up and down each argument for all of them. (We both still can't figure out who would be 'best')

That’s fine and appropriate and healthy. What’s not healthy is if people are threatening to withhold support if their preferred choice isn’t the selection. I hope that’s not happening, although the comments posted on that NYT article might suggest otherwise.

The number of people who wouldn't support Harris based on her VP choice is almost certainly very small. The question is whether they have the ability to shape the overall narrative in a way that influences more people against Harris.

My main worry about picking Shapiro is that the people who would be infuriated, while small in number, are probably very online. Also the whole "Genocide Josh" thing, while ridiculous, could focus campaign media attention on Israel / Gaza in a way that may divide the Democratic coalition.

On the other hand, if Harris picks Walz, my worry is that the media may run with a "Harris caved to far-left activists" or something, in a way that gives off a perception of Harris as more left-wing that may cost Harris in key swing states.

Who knows - I find it hard to predict narrative / vibe shifts. Like I wouldn't have predicted that Harris replacing Biden would be as wildly successful as it was.

[Carpet_pissr]

Honestly, this is more-or-less how the sausage is made.

Right?
I mean, I actually hope they are having some raw, open, and possibly heated discussions about what could or couldn't help the campaign win the presidency. I mean, my wife and I even throw around all of the options - all up and down each argument for all of them. (We both still can't figure out who would be 'best')

It's definitely how the D sausage seems to be made in the past. It "feels" like there is a lot more discussion and debate, and yes, pushback, within the party about things like this, vs. the very much in lockstep appearances of the R's. I think it would be hard to argue that the R's just ARE more aligned internally, and congealed as a party, than the D's. Makes sense if you consider the differences in how these two party seem to view the world, as it is and should be. R = super strong leader, everyone line up behind him like good soldiers, don't think too much, loyalty is everything, etc. Obviously simplifying that but there is truth to it.

[El Guapo]

When did the NYT become the National Enquirer? Even Murdoch is distancing from DonOld.

They're just addicted to the high of campaign drama.

[Carpet_pissr]

Honestly, this is more-or-less how the sausage is made.

Right?
I mean, I actually hope they are having some raw, open, and possibly heated discussions about what could or couldn't help the campaign win the presidency. I mean, my wife and I even throw around all of the options - all up and down each argument for all of them. (We both still can't figure out who would be 'best')

That’s fine and appropriate and healthy. What’s not healthy is if people are threatening to withhold support if their preferred choice isn’t the selection. I hope that’s not happening, although the comments posted on that NYT article might suggest otherwise.

The number of people who wouldn't support Harris based on her VP choice is almost certainly very small. The question is whether they have the ability to shape the overall narrative in a way that influences more people against Harris.

My main worry about picking Shapiro is that the people who would be infuriated, while small in number, are probably very online. Also the whole "Genocide Josh" thing, while ridiculous, could focus campaign media attention on Israel / Gaza in a way that may divide the Democratic coalition.

On the other hand, if Harris picks Walz, my worry is that the media may run with a "Harris caved to far-left activists" or something, in a way that gives off a perception of Harris as more left-wing that may cost Harris in key swing states.

Who knows - I find it hard to predict narrative / vibe shifts. Like I wouldn't have predicted that Harris replacing Biden would be as wildly successful as it was.

I think whoever she picks will have much less impact on anyone's vote than we here are assuming. I also don't think the act of picking him will be anything but a burp, vs what some are saying will be some kind of boost. The majority of Americans don't even follow politics, do you think a VP picking another VP will move the needle at all except in places like this where we tend to overexaggerate real world consequences? (I include myself in doing this FWIW).

[Carpet_pissr]

When did the NYT become the National Enquirer? Even Murdoch is distancing from DonOld.

I bet Malchior, wherever he is, is shitting a brick these days. I will reiterate that the NYT stopped being the quintessential paper it once was quite a while ago. Their questionable headlines and articles have only become more frequent over the past few years.

[Unagi]

Hrm. You're just going to have to trust that I have a critical thinking brain, I guess, and can suss out RW propaganda vs seeing and hearing things with my own eyes and ears.

I'm sorry if I came across with that rude implication against you, not my intention. I honestly just wanted to see the specifics because I wanted to see how I would judge the moment.

This is not a "people say" situation. It's several instances where I was watching either an interview with her, or a speech, or whatnot

I feel like I have some vague memories of this as well, but they were not stored quite in the 'word salad' part of my brain, but more of a 'what was that?' part - - and I'd love to review them now.

Like, I'm sure we both know pretty smart, very capable people personally; and they probably have fumbled a sentence or so while describing something entirely within their wheelhouse (and outside ours) where even we were in a position to correct them, and they laugh and say "you're right, I meant XYZ" - and move on, (or however it may play out).

Compared to some guy who rambles on and on about sharks and getting electrocuted in a sinking electric boat with the late, great, Hannibal Lector.

[Carpet_pissr]

Compared to some guy who rambles on and on about sharks and getting electrocuted in a sinking electric boat with the late, great, Hannibal Lector.

Yeah, no...not at all even in the same stratosphere. He's the GOAT where that is concerned.

[Isgrimnur]

When did the NYT become the National Enquirer? Even Murdoch is distancing from DonOld.

They're just addicted to the high of campaign drama.

Arthur Gregg "Dash" Sulzberger

According to anonymous sources within the newspaper's staff, upon taking his position in 2018 Sulzburger "told employees explicitly that his biggest concern was that the paper’s audience saw it as a 'liberal rag...' [his] vision for the paper is to change that perception and court conservative readers." However, this view was refuted by The Economist, which published a study evidencing a gradual leftward shift in the partisan slant of The New York Times, beginning in 2017. The New York Times' former opinion section editor James Bennet, in light of the paper's Tom Cotton controversy, also disagreed, arguing that by catering to a partisan readership and an influx of new journalists focusing on digital content the New York Times under A.G. Sulzberger had taken on an "illiberal bias".

The Times’s problem has metastasised from liberal bias to illiberal bias, from an inclination to favour one side of the national debate to an impulse to shut debate down altogether. All the empathy and humility in the world will not mean much against the pressures of intolerance and tribalism without an invaluable quality that Sulzberger did not emphasise: courage.

[Unagi]

Compared to some guy who rambles on and on about sharks and getting electrocuted in a sinking electric boat with the late, great, Hannibal Lector.

Yeah, no...not at all even in the same stratosphere. He's the GOAT where that is concerned.

just wanted to share something I found from like a year ago, as an example of what we were both remembering...

https://nypost.com/2023/07/07/kamala-ha ... ter-users/

[El Guapo]

When did the NYT become the National Enquirer? Even Murdoch is distancing from DonOld.

I bet Malchior, wherever he is, is shitting a brick these days. I will reiterate that the NYT stopped being the quintessential paper it once was quite a while ago. Their questionable headlines and articles have only become more frequent over the past few years.

The trick is that the reporting coming out of the NYT is still world class. The frustration comes in with a lot of the headlines and opinion and quasi-opinion pieces.

[Unagi]

Compared to some guy who rambles on and on about sharks and getting electrocuted in a sinking electric boat with the late, great, Hannibal Lector.

Yeah, no...not at all even in the same stratosphere. He's the GOAT where that is concerned.

just wanted to share something I found from like a year ago, as an example of what we were both remembering...

https://nypost.com/2023/07/07/kamala-ha ... ter-users/

maybe not the best example.

They seem to make fun of her for these strange leap about what culture is, and expressing it as joy - and don't like that she kinda randomly says about joy coming in the morning... but that's a biblical quote.

[Unagi]

another example.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... r-AA1lObs8


I aslo can't follow what's wrong with what's being said by Harris here.


Here you can hear the actual word salad they are complaining about/making fun of:

https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/ ... 4936915191

it's there. It's one skipped word. Once. And that's grabbed and used as if she's lost her mind.

I think every example I find is going to be like this.

[El Guapo]

https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/stat ... 3958383077

This (and the follow on thread) is by the author of the Atlantic piece about Shapiro, arguing that the whole "Genocide Josh" campaign and focus on him by anti-Israel activists is a double-standard vs. the non-Jewish VP candidates (who have fairly similar views on Israel / Gaza.

[Archinerd]

it's there. It's one skipped word. Once. And that's grabbed and used as if she's lost her mind.

I think every example I find is going to be like this.

What dummy, I'm MAGA now!

[Jaymann]

Looks like it's down to Walz or Shapiro:



Fingers crossed for Walz.

[Apollo]

When did the NYT become the National Enquirer? Even Murdoch is distancing from DonOld.

I bet Malchior, wherever he is, is shitting a brick these days. I will reiterate that the NYT stopped being the quintessential paper it once was quite a while ago. Their questionable headlines and articles have only become more frequent over the past few years.

The trick is that the reporting coming out of the NYT is still world class. The frustration comes in with a lot of the headlines and opinion and quasi-opinion pieces.

Completely agree. All my previous sources of news (Time, NPR, Washington Post) have lurched so far to the left in the past decade that they no longer seem like independent news sources but rather are actively advocating for Left wing ideology, even in their headlines. Only the NYT seems to be pushing back (though subtly) on all the Right AND Left wing idiocy we are bombarded with these days, IMHO.

[Apollo]

Fingers crossed for Walz.

I think she only mentioned Shapiro as a "finalist" to push back on the anti-semites who hate him. But I seriously doubt she has the guts to pick a Jewish VP and alienate the Anti-Semitic activists who make up part of her base, even though picking a popular Purple battleground state Governor seems like a much better strategy than picking a relative unknown from a Blue state.

[Jaymann]

Fingers crossed for Walz.

I think she only mentioned Shapiro as a "finalist" to push back on the anti-semites who hate him. But I seriously doubt she has the guts to pick a Jewish VP and alienate the Anti-Semitic activists who make up part of her base, even though picking a popular Purple battleground state Governor seems like a much better strategy than picking a relative unknown from a Blue state.

Good point. But I think Walz would provide the opportunity for a lot of "Who is Tim Walz?" pieces, where the closer you look the better he sounds.

[EvilHomer3k]

Looks like it's down to Walz or Shapiro:



Fingers crossed for Walz.

If Walz is picked it Minnesota will get the first Native American governor in Peggy Flanagan which would be pretty great.

[YellowKing]

I know PA is considered a must-win, but Shapiro's baggage (imagined or not) does scare me a bit. I could see the press having a field day digging into the dirt, amplifying the divisions, etc. It feels like it could be a lot of potential downside for a shot at carrying his home state which she may wind up carrying anyway.

On the other hand, I've not heard a single negative thing about Walz other than progressive whining, which they do over everybody anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is that though I'll be happy with either pick, if it's Shapiro I'm going to be a bit anxious at how the polls are going to react. With Walz I don't have that fear.

[Newcastle]

Switched vote to Walz. I really liked his communication style from the Klein piece. Also he's the final two..ya know have to blow which way the wind is blowing.
Also I think having htis "drama" play out now gives the campaign quite a bit of buzz. Most of the people aren't going to really start paying attention until after labor day. So having this sort of buzz factor is quite good in my eyes. Hoepfully, hopefully we get a Dem tidal wave [ i know super unlikely considering the gerrymandering] that wipes out the Maga-verse. Walz i think will be good at communicating to that rural voter. He looks like them, talks like them , and knows how to interact with them. Hopefully people looking at him will "Walz is like me". Who knows. But one can hope.

[how's the spelling Unagi?]