The Kamala Harris presidential candidacy

[GreenGoo]

FWIW the WSJ news articles are still top notch.

Will take that into consideration.

[Grifman]

So, my FB feed seems to be a lot less political (meaning a lot less MAGA) this time around than the last two elections. I don’t know if Trumpers are getting tired of the circus or whether it is because I blocked a few of the more notorious posters of silliness. That said I do have a couple of friends still to posting crap, though I just blocked one because his posts were becoming about 80 to 90% conspiracy theory stuff, which I cannot abide.

So there is now mostly just one, and he finally asked me on FB yesterday how I could support Harris. I posted the following response:

My answer is as follows:

1). I support our police. Donald Trump does not as he has said he would pardon the Jan 6 rioters who assaulted the police and injured 140 of them. He doesn’t respect or care about our police. Why would I support a man that cares more about those that attacked the police than the police who were attacked?

2). I support our military. Donald Trump does not, as he has insulted POW’s, insulted veterans calling them “suckers”, said a civilian award (The Presidential Medal of Freedom) is greater than the Medal of Honor, and used the sacred ground of Arlington for a campaign event. Donald Trump does not respect or care for our military. Why should I support a man that insults our veterans?

3). I support our Constitution and Donald Trump does not. He sought to get Mike Pence to unconstitutionally reject duly certified electors on Jan. 6. In addition he had fake electors appointed in a number of states to try and replace legitimate electors. And for the record many of those same fake electors are now facing criminal and civil charges in those same states. Why would I support a man that has no respect for the Constitution?

4). Donald Trump violated his oath of office to “preserve, protect, and defend” the Constitution on Jan. 6. When Congress was under attack while trying to carry out their constitutional duty, he sat in the White House only a few blocks away and did absolutely nothing. He didn’t call the military, the National Guard, the police, the FBI, etc. The Republican speaker of the House called him, begging him to do something and all Trump said was maybe the rioters had “a reason to be angry”. People blamed Hillary Clinton for doing nothing during Benghazi, but she was half a world away and was not in charge of the military. Trump, the most powerful man in the world, was only a few blocks away and did absolutely nothing while the Capitol was being ransacked for the first time since the British did so in 1814. He did not protect the Constitution as he swore to in his oath of office. Why should I vote for a man that lied and violated his oath of office?

The simple fact is that the rule of law and support for the Constitution is the most important issue, more important than any other single issue. If we don’t have that, then we don’t have a republic. And if we don’t have a republic, the anything goes and we are no longer a nation of laws. That is the bottom line for me.

I should also note the the presidential oath of office says nothing about any specific policies, whether that be abortion, or criminal justice or anything else. Why? Because the Founders knew that policies would vary depending on the people in charge. But what is foundational to the country is the Constitution. And preserving, protecting and defending it is just about the only specific duty the president is charged with. Given that, and Trump’s lies and violations of his oath, how could I vote for Trump?

It’s been over 24 hours and he is yet to respond, and at this point I don’t expect he will. Of course he knows this is all true, so what can he say? Anyway, in the end, as an evangelical Christian who does NOT support Trump, it felt good to lay this all out for those wondering why.

[Daehawk]

Good luck Grif...you're a smart guy in a sea of stupid in these days.

[GreenGoo]

Congrats Grif. That does boil things down nicely.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, that's great.

For what it's worth, I don't see to many pro-Trump lunatics on my local FB feed anymore, though there are still a few in the local municipal/county pages. I think they've become even more insular. I just discovered a GOP/Trump page for my county on FB last week and if I visit the public profiles of various lunatics that are spouting nonsense, they're invariably members of private pages or groups where I can only assume they're all huffing each other's farts.

But yeah, I wouldn't expect a response.

[Blackhawk]

I still have all of my midwest family members on 'Don't Follow', but I went and looked at their pages yesterday to see how bad things were. There was decidedly less political bull than there has been in the past. Most of what was there was generic conspiracy theories and far-right rhetoric (immigrants bad, litter boxes, FEMA, etc.) rather than named call-outs to Trump as in the past.

[Dramatist]

My wife only has her big sister left in her immediate family. Her folks have passed and her brother died in an accident about a dozen years ago. She used to be close to her sister but her sister is now ultra MAGA and it’s breaking my wife’s heart.

It’s been happening for years but finally reached a breaking point when Trump faced the assassination attempt in Pennsylvania and her sister sent her so much MAGA cinematic universe stuff she had to block her.

I think the worst thing about Trump is how he tears families apart.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Unagi]

So, my FB feed seems to be a lot less political (meaning a lot less MAGA) this time around than the last two elections. I don’t know if Trumpers are getting tired of the circus or whether it is because I blocked a few of the more notorious posters of silliness. That said I do have a couple of friends still to posting crap, though I just blocked one because his posts were becoming about 80 to 90% conspiracy theory stuff, which I cannot abide.

So there is now mostly just one, and he finally asked me on FB yesterday how I could support Harris. I posted the following response:

My answer is as follows:

1). I support our police. Donald Trump does not as he has said he would pardon the Jan 6 rioters who assaulted the police and injured 140 of them. He doesn’t respect or care about our police. Why would I support a man that cares more about those that attacked the police than the police who were attacked?

2). I support our military. Donald Trump does not, as he has insulted POW’s, insulted veterans calling them “suckers”, said a civilian award (The Presidential Medal of Freedom) is greater than the Medal of Honor, and used the sacred ground of Arlington for a campaign event. Donald Trump does not respect or care for our military. Why should I support a man that insults our veterans?

3). I support our Constitution and Donald Trump does not. He sought to get Mike Pence to unconstitutionally reject duly certified electors on Jan. 6. In addition he had fake electors appointed in a number of states to try and replace legitimate electors. And for the record many of those same fake electors are now facing criminal and civil charges in those same states. Why would I support a man that has no respect for the Constitution?

4). Donald Trump violated his oath of office to “preserve, protect, and defend” the Constitution on Jan. 6. When Congress was under attack while trying to carry out their constitutional duty, he sat in the White House only a few blocks away and did absolutely nothing. He didn’t call the military, the National Guard, the police, the FBI, etc. The Republican speaker of the House called him, begging him to do something and all Trump said was maybe the rioters had “a reason to be angry”. People blamed Hillary Clinton for doing nothing during Benghazi, but she was half a world away and was not in charge of the military. Trump, the most powerful man in the world, was only a few blocks away and did absolutely nothing while the Capitol was being ransacked for the first time since the British did so in 1814. He did not protect the Constitution as he swore to in his oath of office. Why should I vote for a man that lied and violated his oath of office?

The simple fact is that the rule of law and support for the Constitution is the most important issue, more important than any other single issue. If we don’t have that, then we don’t have a republic. And if we don’t have a republic, the anything goes and we are no longer a nation of laws. That is the bottom line for me.

I should also note the the presidential oath of office says nothing about any specific policies, whether that be abortion, or criminal justice or anything else. Why? Because the Founders knew that policies would vary depending on the people in charge. But what is foundational to the country is the Constitution. And preserving, protecting and defending it is just about the only specific duty the president is charged with. Given that, and Trump’s lies and violations of his oath, how could I vote for Trump?

It’s been over 24 hours and he is yet to respond, and at this point I don’t expect he will. Of course he knows this is all true, so what can he say? Anyway, in the end, as an evangelical Christian who does NOT support Trump, it felt good to lay this all out for those wondering why.

To be clear, is this a Christian friend of yours that, as an evangelical, was questioning why you wouldn't support his most obvious choice (Trump) as an evangelical - - and that your reply basically pointed to 'non-Christian' reasons for not supporting Trump?

My question is this, if my above characterization is more-or-less the case; Do you or do you not feel you could also push back against an evangelical Christian about Trump being the most obvious choice for an evangelical Christian? Caused, shit man - the idea that the Jesus you all have in your hearts and minds would support Trump is just absurd to me. I mean, honestly, has the evangelical need to control a woman's body completely eclipsed every other CORE Christian value? I mean it. Seriously. I'm just blown away by serious GOOD religious people who seemingly honor morality and yet they can't make a totally solid non-secular, completely Christian reason to run away from Trump?


Still - I don't mean to diminish your reply. That was all very well spoken.

[GreenGoo]

I think the worst thing about Trump is how he tears families apart.

My brother was brought up in the same middle class house I was, but had zero interest in education and therefore didn't get much. He's always been a bit of a douche, and that has only gotten worse as he ages.

Him being an idiot and racist as fuck is what has torn us apart, although we are cordial because he always wants something from me so he doesn't go full blown raging lunatic in my presence.

Drumpf is just a catalyst that causes douche accretion. I don't blame that particular sin on drumpf.

[Alefroth]

It’s been over 24 hours and he is yet to respond, and at this point I don’t expect he will. Of course he knows this is all true, so what can he say? Anyway, in the end, as an evangelical Christian who does NOT support Trump, it felt good to lay this all out for those wondering why.

And your answer didn't even include what a mockery of Christianity he has made.

[YellowKing]

It’s been over 24 hours and he is yet to respond, and at this point I don’t expect he will.

That's been my experience with all of them. They love to run their damn mouths at every opportunity, but when confronted with irrefutable facts they shut down and clam up.

[Grifman]

“Blue Wall” showing cracks:

https://www.axios.com/2024/10/10/2024-p ... nnsylvania

[Smoove_B]

Horse race!

[LordMortis]

I really worry for Michigan. The suburbs are full of TFG and generally conservative signs. Add lower class housing like I'm at, which is all MAGA and the Palestine protest against Biden and I'm not sure the youth (mainly women) vote can save us this time. The UAW may support Harris but its membership , not so much. I fear Slotkin will feel that fallout as well and Rogers is MAGA. This state could be a disaster. I need to be wrong here but everywhere I look, that's just not the case. We don't have demonstrably insane GOP governor candidate and abortion legislation to save us. The swing looks like its swinging in the wrong direction at ever turn. :Guy Running with Head on Fire:

[Kurth]

To me, if someone is a reasonably decent person -- it's actually impossible to support this man -- and yet I'm convinced some reasonably decent people still do. It's complete delusion or detachment to reality or epic denial/head in the sand.

Not an apologist for MAGAts by any means, but I think the answer to this is that the reasonably decent people that support Trump don’t actually support Trump, the man. They support what Trump represents. And you and they would be in vehement disagreement over what that is.

Not to put words in your mouth, but if you and I were to try to set out what Trump represents, I think we’d point to greed, racism, xenophobia, isolationism, fear-mongering, scapegoating, autocracy, and treason.

Building off that Daily podcast about NAFTA that I mentioned upthread, I think decent people - especially the blue collar, working class voters - who support Trump would say he represents someone who is at least trying to speak them in a political system that has largely left them behind. From that perspective, their choice is between a Democratic Party that they feel has abandoned them and a Trump-led GOP that makes them feel important and seen.

[Kraken]

Yeah I have family who would never in a million years consider voting for a Democrat. It's been ingrained for decades that it would be the equivalent of voting for Hitler - it doesn't even cross their mind to vote for a "liberal."

In fact, I blame my straight Republican voting record up until 2008 on just that - I was brought up to believe that you just voted R. And when you're brought up to vote that way, A) you don't typically question it, and B) you mold your belief system to support the way you're voting.

Trump might have some flaws, but at least he's not a baby-eating socialist pedophile who's going to give your guns to immigrants!

I don't see many overt MAGAts in my FB feed, but the algorithm insists on feeding me flat earthers, moon hoaxers, climate deniers, creationists, and all other manner of antiscience posts...maybe because about 75% of my followed groups are science-oriented. And lately it's taken to serving up AI-generated pictures of trucks festooned with American flags and Jesus kissing white babies, just for good measure. I'm sure those are all trumpsters.

[Zaxxon]

Not an apologist for MAGAts by any means, but I think the answer to this is that the reasonably decent people that support Trump don’t actually support Trump, the man. They support what Trump represents. And you and they would be in vehement disagreement over what that is.

...

Building off that Daily podcast about NAFTA that I mentioned upthread, I think decent people - especially the blue collar, working class voters - who support Trump would say he represents someone who is at least trying to speak them in a political system that has largely left them behind. From that perspective, their choice is between a Democratic Party that they feel has abandoned them and a Trump-led GOP that makes them feel important and seen.

I hear you, but the people that believe the Earth is flat also might be reasonably decent people. They're still delusional. At some point (I'd argue after, say, 8+ years), if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them. For years we here on OO (well, not me, but many of you) have done a great job outlining and affirming the excuses MAGAville may have for supporting this democracy-denying, dictatorship-desiring, deplorable dumpster of a dude.

Enough.

[Blackhawk]

if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said? Keep in mind that only a small fraction of the population follows any news at all. Some people have zero interest in national politics beyond checking the appropriate box every four years. Many probably have no clue about who he really is.

Hell, I've lived here for 24 years this month, and I couldn't tell you the mayor's name - or any of his predecessors - let alone what they've done during their terms. And yet I'll vote (D) for local positions when the time comes. Some people are like that nationally.

[GreenGoo]

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

What about them?

[Default]

It’s been over 24 hours and he is yet to respond, and at this point I don’t expect he will. Of course he knows this is all true, so what can he say? Anyway, in the end, as an evangelical Christian who does NOT support Trump, it felt good to lay this all out for those wondering why.

That's a persuasive set of arguments, under normal circumstances. Unfortunately, decades of being told that a: Christ's return is imminent, and b: we're all going to be persecuted like never before!, has them in an information silo that a number of them can't see out of. It leads to a non- forward thinking, and emotional reactions. Critical thinking is not respected, at least in the ones I am acquainted with.
None of the evangelicals that I know would admit to that, or your reasons. Now, I'm going to start looking for unicorns.

[GreenGoo]

In Grif's defense, he wasn't trying to convince his fb friend. This person asked him a direct question, and Grif gave him an honest answer based on facts.

Good enough.

[Blackhawk]

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

What about them?

It's not reasonable to ascribe motives to them or decry them as 'bad people.' Willfully ignorant is a reasonable criticism, but that's all.

[Zaxxon]

if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

[Blackhawk]

if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

The country has never worked that way. Part of the reasoning behind the electoral college was to address this.

It's a flaw in our system and/or our culture (species?)

[Zaxxon]

Yes, I know. That doesn’t vindicate those people any more than it did yesterday. We have three options left for these folks: delusional, willfully ignorant, and deplorable. None of those is something we should continue excusing as the country (and planet) burns.

I understand that you live among them more than most of us, BH, and I expected your response as I expected it the past few times the Wheel has turned on this discussion. But I continue not to find it compelling.

[Blackhawk]

That's fine. I am also aware that I have a more neutral, less black-and-white view of the world than most people do, something that often gets me into 'trouble' around here. I'm a big fan of assigning blame where it's due, but I find misassigning blame to be one of the worst things people can do to one another.

That lifelong abhorrence of misplaced blame (or credit!) has resulted in a habit of always trying to look at issues from the viewpoint of the people I disagree with (in this case the voters.) And what I see is a huge number of people stumbling along blindly, not having a clue as to the effects and impact of their actions, and completely unaware of the truth behind what they've heard. That's a negative, but I also can't accept ignorance being dumped into the same basket as the active malevolence that is MAGA.

[Zaxxon]

I’m not intending to suggest it’s the *same* basket. But it’s an adjacent basket. Voting while as ignorant as you described upthread does active harm to so many. It’s absolutely a negative action deserving of criticism.

[Daehawk]

They are saying Kamala Harris has raised over a $billion dollar for her party.....tRump must be seething.

[Blackhawk]

I’m not intending to suggest it’s the *same* basket. But it’s an adjacent basket. Voting while as ignorant as you described upthread does active harm to so many. It’s absolutely a negative action deserving of criticism.

It's something that people in that particular basket have no knowledge of. Those who do not follow politics probably don't know about the impact of low-information voters, certainly not enough to make a decision to exclude themselves based on the ethics of the whole thing.

The solution isn't ostracization and hatred (and let's face it - most people will treat the people in each basket exactly the same as those in others.) The solution is communication and, in the future, education. And if that's so, setting them up to be on the receiving end by lumping them in with the racists and anarchists isn't valuable in any way. In fact, it's more likely to push them further away, encouraging them to turn to the people who disagree with their accusers. In other words, counterproductive if the goal is to end up somewhere better.

[LordMortis]

I’m not intending to suggest it’s the *same* basket. But it’s an adjacent basket. Voting while as ignorant as you described upthread does active harm to so many. It’s absolutely a negative action deserving of criticism.

+1. For as much as you can muster, especially for the willfully ignorant who just let reason roll off them. I can only criticize my father so much before I just have to accept the my vote counteracts his and he raised at least three of his five children to be better than he is while a fourth remains questionable, given her spouse... The fifth is deplorable. Mom is more interesting. She's way more reasonable in spite of the fact that she is way more libertarian and subscribes to her family obsession with holistic healing adjacency, which includes being vaccine skeptical, inclusive of being non vaccinated when it comes to COVID. Again, antivax adjacent. She'll keep her vote quiet, and may very well vote against TFG, whom she used to speak up against. We'll never know but I suspect she'll vote libertarian; the same as sitting home.

[TheMix]

There is a difference between explaining something and justifying it. Just so you are aware, BH, you sometimes come across as the latter. Or dangerously close. IMHO.

[Blackhawk]

There is a difference between explaining something and justifying it. Just so you are aware, BH, you sometimes come across as the latter. Or dangerously close. IMHO.

Fair point. I'm not intending to justify anything. They're in the wrong. I just see a huge, huge difference between being wrong because you didn't know better, and being in the wrong by choice.

I'm the eternal devil's advocate, trying to maintain a balance in perspective that I see slipping in our society, as we line up to point fingers, assign blame, and vent our anger. It hasn't made me a lot of friends.

OO (for the most part) is a collection of highly intelligent, educated people with highly intelligent, educated kids and highly intelligent, educated friends. I often see them applying their perspective to people who aren't so fortunate, without ever considering that it might be misplaced and counterproductive. OO isn't representative of American society, and seem to forget that their solutions may not be at all reasonable for others. What's obvious and clear to the highly intelligent, educated person can be incomprehensible to the average Joe - let alone the half of the population that's below the average.

So I try to add that other perspective in - often resulting in people acting like I'm agreeing with those who are a problem, rather than just disagreeing with the assessment.

For the record, I personally end up in line with the rest of OO on the underlying issues 99% of the time.

[Isgrimnur]

I appreciate your efforts to crack the door on our echo chamber. I try to do so in other aspects of my daily life, less so here for some reason.

[Daehawk]

Im highly intelligent but Im not highly educated.

[Isgrimnur]

"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"

[LordMortis]

/dumb as rocks
/faked way through a reasonably good higher education.
/faked way though a career no one else would want anyway.
/One lucky bastard getting through financial hurdles but with no skills for living and no additional household members.

[Isgrimnur]

90% of success is showing up and doing the work.

[hepcat]

So 10 percent of success is not showing up and not doing the work?

IN!

[gbasden]

There is a difference between explaining something and justifying it. Just so you are aware, BH, you sometimes come across as the latter. Or dangerously close. IMHO.

Fair point. I'm not intending to justify anything. They're in the wrong. I just see a huge, huge difference between being wrong because you didn't know better, and being in the wrong by choice.

I'm the eternal devil's advocate, trying to maintain a balance in perspective that I see slipping in our society, as we line up to point fingers, assign blame, and vent our anger. It hasn't made me a lot of friends.

OO (for the most part) is a collection of highly intelligent, educated people with highly intelligent, educated kids and highly intelligent, educated friends. I often see them applying their perspective to people who aren't so fortunate, without ever considering that it might be misplaced and counterproductive. OO isn't representative of American society, and seem to forget that their solutions may not be at all reasonable for others. What's obvious and clear to the highly intelligent, educated person can be incomprehensible to the average Joe - let alone the half of the population that's below the average.

So I try to add that other perspective in - often resulting in people acting like I'm agreeing with those who are a problem, rather than just disagreeing with the assessment.

For the record, I personally end up in line with the rest of OO on the underlying issues 99% of the time.

I honestly totally appreciate your perspective. One lesson that's been beaten into me over the last 8 years is that way more people are actively dumb and/or dangerously uninformed than I ever thought possible. I still don't take that as much into account as I should. I look at a party that actively scapegoats the marginalized and powerless and my gut reaction is that those that support them have to be awful people. I need to continue to be reminded that many of those people have no idea about what they are voting for. It's almost as bad for the future of the country, but at least they aren't being actively malevolent.

[gbasden]

So 10 percent of success is not showing up and not doing the work?

IN!

Never underestimate the power of being in the right place at the right time. It's helped me out multiple times in my career.