Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[hepcat]

So yes, you believe Israel is inherently an occupying force and shouldn’t be a nation. Even though there was no actual Palestinian state prior to Israel becoming a nation. Got it. I don’t think we need to go any further with this discussion. I know all I need to about your stance. Perhaps you’ve said that out loud before and I just missed it. In which case, I shouldn’t have replied to begin with. Considering your country’s history, I guess I was just surprised.

[Victoria Raverna]

So yes, you believe Israel is inherently an occupying force and shouldn’t be a nation. Even though there was no actual Palestinian state prior to Israel becoming a nation. Got it. I don’t think we need to go any further with this discussion. I know all I need to about your stance.

it is dishonest to use "no actual Palestinian state". Palestinian people are real. Just because there were no Palestinian state, doesn't make it right for immigrants to come in and establish a nation that excluded them.

[hepcat]

As I said, I think I know all I need to about your stance on the right of Israel to exist to understand we can’t have a discussion about the complicated history of that region even prior to Israel. But thank you for going straight to the personal insults of my being dishonest…even if what I wrote is 100 percent truthful.

[Victoria Raverna]

As I said, I think I know all I need to about your stance on the right of Israel to exist to understand we can’t have a discussion about the complicated history of that region even prior to Israel. But thank you for going straight to the personal insults of my being dishonest…even if what I wrote is 100 percent truthful.

When you use the same talking point as those that claimed that Palestnian people are not real, I think it is fair to accuse you for being dishonest.

[hepcat]

And I’m surprised you eventually came around to outright saying Israel has no right to exist.

I’m out. There’s no point in continuing this discussion.

[Blackhawk]

I agree that Israel shouldn't have ended up there. There are parallels to what we did to the Native Americans.

But just like us, they're there, and that's the reality that we will be dealing with.

Unless you think that every Israeli should pack up and move, they're a nation. We work from that starting point.

[Victoria Raverna]

And I’m surprised you eventually came around to outright saying Israel has no right to exist.

I’m out. There’s no point in continuing this discussion.

Israel as an apartheid state has no right to exist in a land where there were existing non Jewish people. It was bad for South Africa, why it is okay for Israel?

Now if it is an inclusive nation where everyone are treated equal (as equal as possible), then I have no problem with that. But to establish Israel as a Jewish state in a land where majority population were non Jewish is not a good thing.

But now it is too late. Israel is a real nation. What is needed now is a fair solution for the Palestinians including the refugees.

[Kraken]

I agree that Israel shouldn't have ended up there. There are parallels to what we did to the Native Americans.

But just like us, they're there, and that's the reality that we will be dealing with.

Unless you think that every Israeli should pack up and move, they're a nation. We work from that starting point.

Yep, that sums it up.

Perhaps the best off-the-path attraction in Boston is the Mapparium at the Christian Science mother church. It's a 3-storey stained glass globe with a walkway through the center. It's a beautiful, unique way to picture the earth, and the acoustics are amazing. It's only a 20-minute tour, admission is just $6, and nobody will try to sell you religion, although you can peruse the exhibits in the Mary Baker Eddy Library if you're so inclined.

The political borders and country names are frozen in 1935, when it was completed. Wiki says, "based upon Rand McNally political maps published the previous year, the Mapparium shows the political world as it was at that time, including such long-disused labels as Italian East Africa and Siam, as well as more recently defunct political entities such as the Soviet Union. In 1939, 1958, and 1966 the Church considered updating the map, but rejected it on the basis of cost and the special interest it holds as a historical artifact." I mention it because one of those now-disused labels is "Palestine." It was just the common name of the region.

Politics and religion aside, it's worth the small investment of time and money if you ever find yourself in Boston.

[Zarathud]

Palestine and Israel had a chance at real peace with a two state solution from 2001-2014. Then Hamas started firing rockets and kidnapping a few teenagers, so Israel invaded Gaza. We’re just in a repeat of a cycle that won’t stop until both sides work toward peace.

American children think what’s happening in Israel is something new. It’s not. That history has led to Israel not feeling safe with neighbors who shoot rockets at them weekly. And reacting whenever their civilians are captured and killed. And Palestinians who have no future because they can’t win a war.

[Blackhawk]

UN says Israeli tanks burst through gates of peacekeeper base

Israeli Foreign Minister Israel Katz reiterated on Sunday that the country has banned U.N. chief Guterres from entering, due to what it says is his failure to adequately condemn Iran for a missile attack at the start of this month, and for what Katz described as antisemitic and anti-Israel conduct.

[...]

Attacks on a watchtower, cameras, communications equipment and lighting had limited UNIFIL's monitoring abilities, a UNIFIL spokesperson said on Thursday. U.N. sources said they feared Israeli attacks would make it impossible to monitor violations of international law.

Support for Israel (strategic if nothing else) is a complicated matter, but there has to be a line.

[Kurth]

I’m not even going to touch BlackHawk’s comparison of Israel to European colonists sailing across the Atlantic to genocide native Americans in the U.S. Wow, BH.

I guess I can see how you might think there were “parallels” if you just see the Israeli/Palestinian dynamic as a simple occupier/occupied thing, but even then, that word is doing an incredible amount of heavy lifting. It feels like a big part of the problem with your analysis is revealed in your opening phrase: “I agree that the Israel shouldn’t have ended up there.” WTF does that even mean? The Jews have always been there, and Israel is not a newfound thing as of 1948. This is not a personal attack on you. I enjoy your posts and I appreciate many of your views. But takes like this really call into question your grasp of the history of this region and this conflict.

Oh well. I guess I touched it after all. Now I forgot what I actually intended to post about. Probably for the best.

[Daehawk]

That mapparium is amazing as a historic look back. I hope they always keep it. Id love a modern version made of bendable monitor material so its a globe and is animated to show religions borders through history. What religion was where and when through time.

As for the middle east they have been fighting each other through 2000 years of indoctrinated hatred of each other. I swear from photos sometimes I doubt I could tell a arab muslim from an israeli jew if they were all naked and stood side by side each other., its all so senseless and stupid in my eyes...but to them its inbred to be the dominate thing in their short lives. Not worth it. Live and let live I say. Move on ya idiots. You're fighting and dying in the dirt sand that no one else cares about. Buncha kindergartners.

[Kurth]

Move on ya idiots. You're fighting and dying in the dirt sand that no one else cares about. Buncha kindergartners.

And this take . . . Give me a break. Daehawk, where do you want the Jews of Israel to “move on” to exactly? Rhode Island? Montana?

They are surrounded by hostile forces sworn to their destruction. And they don’t have the luxury of “moving on.”

[Kurth]

The U. S. announced today that we are sending missile defense batteries to Israel along with U.S. troops to support them (only 100 troops at present).

This seems big to me. It also suggests that Israel may be about to take long overdue action directly against Iran in response to the Iranian ballistic missile attack.

I’ve been expecting a response. Israel cannot let that go without punishing Iran.

[TheMix]

Move on ya idiots. You're fighting and dying in the dirt sand that no one else cares about. Buncha kindergartners.

And this take . . . Give me a break. Daehawk, where do you want the Jews of Israel to “move on” to exactly? Rhode Island? Montana?

They are surrounded by hostile forces sworn to their destruction. And they don’t have the luxury of “moving on.”

Uh. Pretty sure that he didn't mean "move on to a new place". He meant "get on with living and stop fighting". i.e. learn to live together. And I'm pretty sure he meant everyone in the region. I don't believe he was targeting just the Israelis.

[Alefroth]

Move on ya idiots. You're fighting and dying in the dirt sand that no one else cares about. Buncha kindergartners.

And this take . . . Give me a break. Daehawk, where do you want the Jews of Israel to “move on” to exactly? Rhode Island? Montana?

They are surrounded by hostile forces sworn to their destruction. And they don’t have the luxury of “moving on.”

Uh. Pretty sure that he didn't mean "move on to a new place". He meant "get on with living and stop fighting". i.e. learn to live together. And I'm pretty sure he meant everyone in the region. I don't believe he was targeting just the Israelis.

What did he mean here-

I swear from photos sometimes I doubt I could tell a arab muslim from an israeli jew if they were all naked and stood side by side each other.

Or here-

Buncha kindergartners

[hepcat]

That he struggles with growing up around people who support Trump and it sometimes slips through? If you explain to him why something he writes is wrong though, he’ll usually accept the lesson in the spirit it was intended.

[Blackhawk]

I’m not even going to touch BlackHawk’s comparison of Israel to European colonists sailing across the Atlantic to genocide native Americans in the U.S. Wow, BH.

I said 'parallels', not 'analogous,' and it was in response and reference to a very specific aspect of the situation, not the whole.

[Daehawk]

Move on ya idiots. You're fighting and dying in the dirt sand that no one else cares about. Buncha kindergartners.

And this take . . . Give me a break. Daehawk, where do you want the Jews of Israel to “move on” to exactly? Rhode Island? Montana?

They are surrounded by hostile forces sworn to their destruction. And they don’t have the luxury of “moving on.”

Uh. Pretty sure that he didn't mean "move on to a new place". He meant "get on with living and stop fighting". i.e. learn to live together. And I'm pretty sure he meant everyone in the region. I don't believe he was targeting just the Israelis.

This one.

[Pyperkub]

Palestine and Israel had a chance at real peace with a two state solution from 2001-2014. Then Hamas started firing rockets and kidnapping a few teenagers, so Israel invaded Gaza. We’re just in a repeat of a cycle that won’t stop until both sides work toward peace.

American children think what’s happening in Israel is something new. It’s not. That history has led to Israel not feeling safe with neighbors who shoot rockets at them weekly. And reacting whenever their civilians are captured and killed. And Palestinians who have no future because they can’t win a war.

Bibi and his, wife frankly, evil, lot also kept building illegal settlements for just about that entire time. Israel probably did at least as much to undermine the two state solution as Hamas (and yes, I do view Hamas as an anti-Democratic terrorist organization). Neither side ever really honored the 2 state solution and worked to make it work.

Just as neither side is really interested in peace now. There's are no good guys, only assholes and victims of said assholes.

[hepcat]

His wife’s name is Frankly? That must have been rough on her growing up.

[Alefroth]

His wife’s name is Frankly? That must have been rough on her growing up.

Surely he's not serious.

[hepcat]

I didn’t realize Bibi is on his third wife. No wonder Trump likes him.

[Kurth]

I’m not even going to touch BlackHawk’s comparison of Israel to European colonists sailing across the Atlantic to genocide native Americans in the U.S. Wow, BH.

I said 'parallels', not 'analogous,' and it was in response and reference to a very specific aspect of the situation, not the whole.

Fine. Good enough. Just so long as you realize any such “parallels” are pretty fucking tenuous.

Also, possibly incendiary and unnecessary. But ok.

[$iljanus]

The U. S. announced today that we are sending missile defense batteries to Israel along with U.S. troops to support them (only 100 troops at present).

This seems big to me. It also suggests that Israel may be about to take long overdue action directly against Iran in response to the Iranian ballistic missile attack.

I’ve been expecting a response. Israel cannot let that go without punishing Iran.

I think this additional missile defense may be the trade for Bibi showing some restraint in Israel's target selection.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... -military/

TEL AVIV — Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told the Biden administration he is willing to strike military rather than oil or nuclear facilities in Iran, according to two officials familiar with the matter, suggesting a more limited counterstrike aimed at preventing a full-scale war.

Of course he could always change his mind...

[Dogstar]

US gives Israel 30 days to resolve humanitarian crisis in Gaza or potentially face arms embargo. How serious this is, or whether it's political pandering, is very subjective. 30 days definitely comes after the next election should be over. I'm sure it could be strung out further as the US conducts an audit after 30 days are up, but it's better than letting things continue as they have been.

[Zarathud]

Well give you defensive weapons but may take all of them away. It sets up pressure to keep cool before the election or face a policy change.

[Blackhawk]

Give 'em all the anti-missile defense systems and early warning systems they want.

Reroute all of their offensive weapons shipments to Ukraine.

[Alefroth]

Does Israel just not manufacture enough of their own offensive weapons that they are so dependent on us?

[Max Peck]

The thing is that "keeping cool" until after the election probably isn't in Netanyahu's best interest. A full-on war with Iran just before the election probably helps Trump and hurts Harris, and Netanyahu reportedly has plans for what happens next if Trump wins.

https://x.com/McReynoldsJoe/status/1845789110046249200

I had a private 1-on-1 discussion recently w/ a Likud politician in a position of knowledge/power who said that if Trump wins they'll likely formally annex Area C of the West Bank, 60% of the territory. Israel is actively planning a permanent ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Netanyahu's government is not seeking to revive hostage talks and the political leadership is pushing for the gradual annexation of large parts of the Gaza Strip, senior defense officials tell Haaretz

At a minimum, the attack on Iran is scheduled to happen before the election. Not to influence the outcome, of course, but simply because not doing so would make Israel look weak.

Report: Netanyahu Says Israel Will Strike Iranian Military Targets Before Nov. 5 Election

Officials tell Washington Post that Israel will carry out attacks against Islamic Republic before U.S. election, plans to wrap up Lebanon operation 'in coming weeks'

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told the United States that Israel will limit its retaliatory attacks against Iran to military targets and will forgo attacks on the Islamic Republic's nuclear and oil facilities, according to a report in the Washington Post.

The paper cited two sources as saying that Netanyahu make the comments to U.S. President Joe Biden during their phone conversation last week – the first time the two leaders had spoked in more than seven weeks. In response, the Prime Minister's Office said that "we are listening to the opinions of the U.S. administration, but we will make our final decisions based on Israel's national interest."

In recent weeks, the United States and several European countries have tried to dissuade Israel from attacking Iran's oil facilities as part of its expected response to the Iranian missile attack earlier this month.

The U.S. administration is particularly concerned about an Israeli response that will cause prices to rise in the global energy market on the eve of the US presidential elections. A source familiar with the details of the conversation between Biden and Netanyahu said that Israel would react in a way that would not appear as if it was trying to interfere in the presidential elections.

However, the source added, Israel's attack would be carried out before the November 5 elections, since the lack of a response would be interpreted by Iran as a sign of weakness. "This will be just the first in a series of reactions," he said.

Moreover, the paper reported, "as part of consultations with the United States, the official familiar with the matter said, Israel has told Washington it intends to wrap up operations in Lebanon in the coming weeks."

[hepcat]

Does Israel just not manufacture enough of their own offensive weapons that they are so dependent on us?

I went looking for info on that as I hadn't thought about it. Here's a great article from the BBC that covers a little of that question.

But I think at the end of the day, it may also be about WHO'S supplying you with weapons than it is the weapons themselves. The U.S. sending arms to Israel tells the Middle East "hey, this is something you want to steer clear of" and thus gives countries like Iran a little bit of an incentive to at least TRY to temper their actions. It may not seem like it, but I suspect they could be doing a lot more to Israel. It might not be enough to counter the vast arsenal that Israel has/has access to (as a matter of fact, I doubt they can even begin to compete in that arena), but it does give them pause when trying to fan the flames of war in that region.

Of course, that's just me speaking of things I know very little about. But hey...internet!

[Unagi]

The thing is that "keeping cool" until after the election probably isn't in Netanyahu's best interest.

This has been the thought haunting me for the last couple months or so.

[Alefroth]

Does Israel just not manufacture enough of their own offensive weapons that they are so dependent on us?

I went looking for info on that as I hadn't thought about it. Here's a great article from the BBC that covers a little of that question.

Thanks.

[Blackhawk]

Report: Netanyahu Says Israel Will Strike Iranian Military Targets Before Nov. 5 Election

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told the United States that Israel will limit its retaliatory attacks against Iran to military targets

So, just schools and hospitals, then.

[pr0ner]

CNN is reporting that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar may have been killed by Israel.

[Kurth]

CNN is reporting that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar may have been killed by Israel.

From what's being reported, the suggestion is that the IDF encountered Sinwar and 2 other militants in Gaza on a routine patrol, not any planned or directed operation. That seems unlikely to me. This guy was the leader of Hamas and the architect of October 7, and he's just out on the streets of Gaza walking around with 2 of his Hamas pals? Doesn't really compute.

But it would be great news if true. I think Sinwar's death would go a long way toward convincing the IDF and the Israeli people that Hamas had been utterly defeated. Maybe an opportunity to finally resolve this horrible conflict.

[Blackhawk]

I've seen the photos of the body. It certainly looks like him - same structure, same mole, expensive watch.

CNN is reporting that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar may have been killed by Israel.

From what's being reported, the suggestion is that the IDF encountered Sinwar and 2 other militants in Gaza on a routine patrol, not any planned or directed operation. That seems unlikely to me. This guy was the leader of Hamas and the architect of October 7, and he's just out on the streets of Gaza walking around with 2 of his Hamas pals? Doesn't really compute.

From what I'm reading, it may not have been planned, but it wasn't routine - they were investigating an area where they believed senior Hamas leadership was at, and happened to encounter him.

[Blackhawk]

Confirmed with DNA testing that Sinwar has been killed.

The military confirmed Sinwar’s death after conducting DNA and other tests on a body that it said was among three militants killed Wednesday during operations in Gaza.

[Max Peck]

How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

The batteries inside the weaponised pagers that arrived in Lebanon at the start of the year, part of an Israeli plot to decimate Hezbollah, had powerfully deceptive features and an Achilles' heel.

The agents who built the pagers designed a battery that concealed a small but potent charge of plastic explosive and a novel detonator that was invisible to X-ray, according to a Lebanese source with first-hand knowledge of the pagers, and teardown photos of the battery pack seen by Reuters.

To overcome the weakness - the absence of a plausible backstory for the bulky new product - they created fake online stores, pages and posts that could deceive Hezbollah due diligence, a Reuters review of web archives shows.

The stealthy design of the pager bomb and the battery’s carefully constructed cover story, both described here for the first time, shed light on the execution of a years-long operation which has struck unprecedented blows against Israel's Iran-backed Lebanese foe and pushed the Middle East closer to a regional war.

[LawBeefaroni]

Billboards allegedly hacked in Chicago Suburbs. During rush hour traffic.


https://www.newsweek.com/death-israel-d ... ds-1970449

The billboards, located in the suburb of Northbrook, began displaying the offensive messages around 5:30 p.m. Commuters were confronted with slogans like "Death to Israel" and "F*** Israel," both set against the backdrop of a Palestinian flag. The messages remained visible for at least an hour before being taken down around 7 p.m.

The billboards included the text "Paid for by MrBeast LLC," referencing the YouTuber whose real name is Jimmy Donaldson. At least one billboard included an image of his face beside the text.

In a statement to Fox 32 Chicago, a spokesperson for MrBeast said that neither he nor his company had any involvement in the hack and wanted the content removed straight away: "MrBeast did not pay for this billboard and after being made aware of its existence, we contacted our attorneys and the authorities about how to have it immediately removed."

"Notable that this sign is located in a community with a large Jewish population, in close proximity to a Jewish day school, at the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot," added Schneider who contacted local police and the billboard company, Outfront Media, to demand immediate action and an investigation into how the messages were posted.