Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

[Grifman]

Ok, it's probably time to talk about this after the total bust this election was. Two losses against a candidate such as DJT tell me something is seriously wrong. A few points to consider:

1) Abortion was a total bust as an issue. Trump still won the majority of female white voters. Sure Democrats are not going to change their position, but it's not an issue to run and win on. If the overturning of Roe v Wade doesn't do it, nothing related to abortion is going to do it, unless there is a nationwide abortion ban - that might change things. (I'll add that part of the problem is that the overturning of RvW has only impacted red states, and not any blue or even swing states for the most part - so woman may not care in those states if it isn't having an impact, I don't know).

2) Trump got over 45% of the Hispanic vote. That vote is no longer reliably Democratic in overwhelming terms as it once was.

3) Trump got 20% of the African American vote and even more among male voters. Younger voters don't have the history that older voters have and don't necessarily vote as their elders do. So voting is changing in this demographic.

4) I think immigration is an issue that Democrats have ignored in many ways (yes, they passed a bill that Trump torpedoed, but it was too little too late). One doesn't have to be a racist to think that illegal immigration is a problem, and to question whether we have too many foreign born people in the US right now. Indeed many Democratic voters are not happy with the current immigration laws. This is a really good NYT podcast on Immigration and how we got to a system that most voters don't want:



I am going to take this to the immigration thread but I do mention it here because this issue is a problem for the Democrats every election.

So three pillars of the Democratic coalition no longer deliver as they once did, and one issue is a consistent problem. So what can the Democrats do to shore up their base and what can they do to increase their appeal among other segments of the population? Where does the Party go the rest of the 21st century.

Or maybe people think this is a fluke and they don't need to re-calibrate. Maybe if the economy has not suffered from a bad bout of infliction, Harris would have won. I don't know, the economy is always number one for voters so maybe that was it in the end. But it is clear that the demographics that Democrats relied upon are no longer as reliable as they were in the past.

So what do they do now? What can they do?

[LawBeefaroni]

The two biggest surprising/poll busting presidential election results in my lifetime have been with women candidates on the losing end. I still contend that large swaths of this country simply won't vote for a woman president. An that includes a shockingly large number of women voters.

Until we get two women candidates, we won't have a woman president.


I hate to come to this conclusion but it's how Trump, an absolute shitshow, won twice.



That's not to say that's the only thing that went wrong but it's a major contributor to all demographics underperforming.

[Grifman]

I agree, though I do think a conservative female, an American "Margaret Thatcher" could win, before a female liberal could.

[Skinypupy]

Maybe if the economy has not suffered from a bad bout of infliction, Harris would have won. I don't know, the economy is always number one for voters so maybe that was it in the end. But it is clear that the demographics that Democrats relied upon are no longer as reliable as they were in the past.

I keep hearing "it's the economy, stupid" as the reason they lost. Harris promoted several specific policies to help drive down inflation and things she would do to make things more affordable overall. Trump's response was...20-25% tariffs, tax cuts for the rich, and deporting 2/3 of the agriculture and service industries. None of which are likely to help.

Yet the people who all say they're hurting the most voted for his solution in droves, most of them citing "the economy" as the driving factor in their decision. I get that American's are generally quite stupid and uninformed, but what could or should she have done differently there?

When one person says "here's how I'll address it" and the other says "I'll wave a magic wand and give everyone a pony" and the majority of American's say "Ooo look, a pony!", I don't know how you combat that.

[Formix]

I think it's even simpler than that. To a lot of Americans, any policy is a bunch of gibberish, and most likely a lie, or a promise to be unfulfilled.
But "Were you better 4 years ago economically?" (totally disregarding COVID) is a very simple thing for folks to grasp.

[Grifman]

Maybe if the economy has not suffered from a bad bout of infliction, Harris would have won. I don't know, the economy is always number one for voters so maybe that was it in the end. But it is clear that the demographics that Democrats relied upon are no longer as reliable as they were in the past.

I keep hearing "it's the economy, stupid" as the reason they lost. Harris promoted several specific policies to help drive down inflation and things she would do to make things more affordable overall. Trump's response was...20-25% tariffs, tax cuts for the rich, and deporting 2/3 of the agriculture and service industries. None of which are likely to help.

Yet the people who all say they're hurting the most voted for his solution in droves, most of them citing "the economy" as the driving factor in their decision. I get that American's are generally quite stupid and uninformed, but what could or should she have done differently there?

When one person says "here's how I'll address it" and the other says "I'll wave a magic wand and give everyone a pony" and the majority of American's say "Ooo look, a pony!", I don't know how you combat that.

While I agree with your conclusion, I wasn't talking about their programs to solve it, but merely the fact that inflation occurred under Biden/Harris, and wrongly or rightly (wrongly I would say), they got blamed for it. Could the Democrats have won if inflation had not been an issue, or are they facing longer term trends that they need to address as I discussed above? That is the question.

[Skinypupy]

Guess Dems just need to start promising ponies then.

[msteelers]

I do think misogyny has played a large role here, but the American people have made it extremely clear that they want Trump. For some ungodly reason they believe his bullshit.

I don't think abortion is a "total bust". Not at all. It just didn't translate into direct votes for Harris. In FL, 6,061,672 people voted Yes on Amendment 4 to create a consitutional right to an abortion. Trump also received 6,103,182 votes in the state, compared to Harris's 4,676,871 votes.

That means a significant chunk of FL voters voted to both enshrine abortion in the state's consitution, and for Trump. In an election filled with things that make no damn sense to me, this is a big one.

As for immigration, I just don't think there's a good solution. It's a lot easier to demonize the issue and say there's a problem than it is to actually fix it. And the American people have shown time and time again that they don't care about actual solutions. They vote on feelings, not facts.

[Punisher]

Guess Dems just need to start promising ponies then.

It's too late for that.
They obviously have to up their game and go fir Unicorns.

[raydude]

I do think misogyny has played a large role here, but the American people have made it extremely clear that they want Trump. For some ungodly reason they believe his bullshit.

I don't think abortion is a "total bust". Not at all. It just didn't translate into direct votes for Harris. In FL, 6,061,672 people voted Yes on Amendment 4 to create a consitutional right to an abortion. Trump also received 6,103,182 votes in the state, compared to Harris's 4,676,871 votes.

That means a significant chunk of FL voters voted to both enshrine abortion in the state's consitution, and for Trump. In an election filled with things that make no damn sense to me, this is a big one.

As for immigration, I just don't think there's a good solution. It's a lot easier to demonize the issue and say there's a problem than it is to actually fix it. And the American people have shown time and time again that they don't care about actual solutions. They vote on feelings, not facts.

I hate to say it, but I also don't think the US is ready for a female president. Probably not in my lifetime, and not as long as people flock to the whole "incel, mens got to be mens" banner. A good barometer is if Josh Hawley promoted more "manly man" stuff and no one showed up. Then a female president may be possible.

As for immigration - the only way we can fix it is if Democrats control Congress and the White House. Illegal immigration is the golden goose for the Republicans. They'd be bonkers to fix that. All they will do is excercise the deportation option, cite statistics on how many people they deported, fear monger that even more illegals are coming in, and then when the next Democratic nominee runs, fear monger that the D candidate will "open the borders".

[LordMortis]

Up until this election, I had a bit of faith in generation landslide. That faith is completely gone now. As someone who only votes democrat primarily because of the what they opposition has become and now is going to turn his back on his democratic rep for good because she won't get along with the party for the good of the country, I don't have an answer. I'd like to say don't pigeon hole yourself into being good democrats but rather just do what's best for America but the party already is pulling in opposite directions.

What's good for America? Infrastructure rebuild. Getting the budget under control. Preventing the oligarchs from having outsized voices. Promoting civil society and rule of law for which no one is above. Protecting human rights. Protecting the environment. Protecting those who are least able to protect themselves. Liberty with in reason, where it does not trample the civil society. The list goes on. Maybe we need as Asimov's robotic law with regard to what's good for America. Find a way to get cohesive there.

Maybe look to Pete. He's got it going on. His answer to everything seems to be the right one. I wish I knew what I know about him now in 2014 so I can throw everything behind is run.

[Holman]

It's easy to dump on the Dems, but they are the big-tent party trying to bring together disparate (and often competing) interests in the name of making government work for everyone.

Republicans, meanwhile, are the party of grievance offering short-term non-solutions designed to appeal to people who believe that government can't work at all, and that (if it does) it's working to help people who don't deserve it.

It's not about the actual policies. It's about controlling the narrative. Voting Dem requires being hopeful; voting GOP requires only cynicism. Once people (see: today's disaffected young men smitten with Rogan and Musk) stop believing government *can* work, that's Republican victory.

That's where we are.

[Kraken]

It's easy to dump on the Dems, but they are the big-tent party trying to bring together disparate (and often competing) interests in the name of making government work for everyone.

Republicans, meanwhile, are the party of grievance offering short-term non-solutions designed to appeal to people who believe that government can't work at all, and that (if it does) it's working to help people who don't deserve it.

It's not about the actual policies. It's about controlling the narrative. Voting Dem requires being hopeful; voting GOP requires only cynicism. Once people (see: today's disaffected young men smitten with Rogan and Musk) stop believing government *can* work, that's Republican victory.

That's where we are.

Bingo. If voters cared about policy Biden would have been enormously popular; he's the most successful policy president of my lifetime. He inherited a smoking ruin from trump and left the strongest economy in the world, and he steered a lot of that investment to impoverished red states that need the help. Democrats are the party of good governance and Republicans are the party of preventing governance. Guess which path is easier and showier.

Assuming the MAGAts can't gut democracy in the next two years, Dems will regain Congress after trump trashes the economy again.

[LordMortis]

Bingo. If voters cared about policy Biden would have been enormously popular; he's the most successful policy president of my lifetime. He inherited a smoking ruin from trump and left the strongest economy in the world, and he steered a lot of that investment to impoverished red states that need the help. Democrats are the party of good governance and Republicans are the party of preventing governance. Guess which path is easier and showier.

Assuming the MAGAts can't gut democracy in the next two years, Dems will regain Congress after trump trashes the economy again.

I was surprised at how much I loved Biden. I'd have happily voted for him again, as he put together an excellent team and let them do their jobs.

[Blackhawk]

It's easy to dump on the Dems, but they are the big-tent party trying to bring together disparate (and often competing) interests in the name of making government work for everyone.

Republicans, meanwhile, are the party of grievance offering short-term non-solutions designed to appeal to people who believe that government can't work at all, and that (if it does) it's working to help people who don't deserve it.

It's not about the actual policies. It's about controlling the narrative. Voting Dem requires being hopeful; voting GOP requires only cynicism. Once people (see: today's disaffected young men smitten with Rogan and Musk) stop believing government *can* work, that's Republican victory.

That's where we are.

Bingo. If voters cared about policy Biden would have been enormously popular; he's the most successful policy president of my lifetime. He inherited a smoking ruin from trump and left the strongest economy in the world, and he steered a lot of that investment to impoverished red states that need the help. Democrats are the party of good governance and Republicans are the party of preventing governance. Guess which path is easier and showier.

Translation: Americans became so complacent that we became stupid. We (collectively) aren't smart enough to make rational decisions, and the GOP has capitalized on that by skirting rationality for something easier to understand.

[Zarathud]

I was surprised at how much I loved Biden. I'd have happily voted for him again, as he put together an excellent team and let them do their jobs.

Silver lining for me.

This is where you rebuild the Democratic Party. Competence, and honestly fighting for the working guy. That means you have to talk to them. Pete’s been doing that work.

Trump has been a unique candidate with decades of TV and radio experience. There are old Conan, Leno and Stern interviews on YouTube showing Trump develop his “successful braggart” schtick. While he was a convicted felon, low information voters remembered his persona rather than the news. That’s an alternative option for the Democrats — get someone like Oprah to run.

[raydude]

Bingo. If voters cared about policy Biden would have been enormously popular; he's the most successful policy president of my lifetime. He inherited a smoking ruin from trump and left the strongest economy in the world, and he steered a lot of that investment to impoverished red states that need the help. Democrats are the party of good governance and Republicans are the party of preventing governance. Guess which path is easier and showier.

Assuming the MAGAts can't gut democracy in the next two years, Dems will regain Congress after trump trashes the economy again.

I was surprised at how much I loved Biden. I'd have happily voted for him again, as he put together an excellent team and let them do their jobs.

I told my wife that if Biden gives his farewell address in DC I'd go and attend and show my support for Joe. Not to mention that it would be a huge middle finger to Trump if Biden's farewell address crowd was larger than Trump's inaugural address crowd.

[Blackhawk]

I don't know if the Democratic party can be rebuilt. The far left has undercut it so much that it might not be possible.

Now is the time for the Democratic right and the Republican left - the non-extreme elements of both parties - to form a new party and let the remnants of the current division bicker over the scraps.

Imagine the right without MAGA and the left without the 'not left enough' elements.

[Grifman]

I don't think abortion is a "total bust". Not at all. It just didn't translate into direct votes for Harris.

But we ARE talking about presidential campaigns, and in that respect it was a BUST. How many votes an abortion law got in FL is meaningless for the presidential campaign unless those votes translate into presidential votes. And they didn't.

[Grifman]

As for immigration, I just don't think there's a good solution. It's a lot easier to demonize the issue and say there's a problem than it is to actually fix it. And the American people have shown time and time again that they don't care about actual solutions. They vote on feelings, not facts.

As for immigration - the only way we can fix it is if Democrats control Congress and the White House. Illegal immigration is the golden goose for the Republicans. They'd be bonkers to fix that. All they will do is excercise the deportation option, cite statistics on how many people they deported, fear monger that even more illegals are coming in, and then when the next Democratic nominee runs, fear monger that the D candidate will "open the borders".

I think the Democrats made a strategic error by not coming to some agreement with Trump on immigration during his first term. I know they talked about it but never came to agreement. And I know Trump would have driven hard bargain. But if they could have come to agreement then, they could have taken this issue largely off the table. If there were still problems they could have blamed Trump and said they could fix it if given the chance. This would have taken off the table one of the Republicans two biggest issues, which would be a huge strategic gain. Instead, was just left to fester and by the time they had a deal, Trump killed it and they continued to get the blame.

[Kurth]

I don't know if the Democratic party can be rebuilt. The far left has undercut it so much that it might not be possible.

Now is the time for the Democratic right and the Republican left - the non-extreme elements of both parties - to form a new party and let the remnants of the current division bicker over the scraps.

Imagine the right without MAGA and the left without the 'not left enough' elements.

Sign me up, Blackhawk, but I have a hard time seeing that actually happen.

For me, the only thing that provides a glimmer of optimism is that Trump will die. That’s a certainty, it’s just a matter of when. Hopefully, it will be (1) soon and (2) of natural causes so the country doesn’t descend into civil unrest and martial law.

I still believe that MAGA doesn’t survive without Trump. His death will cause a power vacuum that any one of a number of his sycophants and lackies will sweep in to try to fill. I don’t think any of them can do it. Not Vance. Not Musk. Not Hawley. Not MTG. Not any of Trump’s defective spawn. The cult loves Trump. They love his persona. They love his bullshit. He is utterly unique.

So I have hope that when he dies, MAGA dies, too, and opens up an avenue for sanity to return to this country. If Trump and his authoritarian gang haven’t fully gutted our democratic institutions by then, of course.

[Daehawk]

Ive come to the conclusion that this country is stupid.

And as for a female candidate...seems people would rather vote in the POS we got than a woman.....and thats just wrong beyond measure...and stupid.

[Blackhawk]

MAGA will survive without Trump. After all, it's just a new name for an old viewpoint.

What I'm hopeful of is that MAGA won't be able to organize enough to cause further harm without Trump to rally around.

[Kurth]

MAGA will survive without Trump. After all, it's just a new name for an old viewpoint.

What I'm hopeful of is that MAGA won't be able to organize enough to cause further harm without Trump to rally around.

At first, I was thinking we could just agree to disagree. But then I read your second part, and I think maybe we’re not disagreeing after all.

When I talk about MAGA withering away and dying, I don’t mean that the MAGA crowd will all of a sudden see the light and walk away from their basic, stupid, hateful, shitty points of view just because Trump kicks the bucket. I agree that these deplorable people and their deplorable viewpoints have been around in some shape or form for a long, long time, and they will keep on keeping on. But if the MAGA movement no longer has Trump to rally around and organize and it cannot find a suitable replacement for Trump who can animate the movement, that movement will die.

[Smoove_B]

But if the MAGA movement no longer has Trump to rally around and organize and it cannot find a suitable replacement for Trump who can animate the movement, that movement will die.

If there's one thing history has repeatedly demonstrated, it's that when bad people gain access to power they do not give it up easily.

I am firmly in the camp that this is bigger than Trump and I genuinely don't know how the Democrats are going to pick up the pieces after what just happened. There are too many Americans that are apparently absolutely fine with voting for a Trump and everything he represents. Offering up a candidate that is running on making housing affordable or promising to enshrine women's reproductive rights while the opposition is indicating they're going to being mass deportations on day one...we're not even in the same ballpark anymore.

[Blackhawk]

MAGA will survive without Trump. After all, it's just a new name for an old viewpoint.

What I'm hopeful of is that MAGA won't be able to organize enough to cause further harm without Trump to rally around.

At first, I was thinking we could just agree to disagree. But then I read your second part, and I think maybe we’re not disagreeing after all.

When I talk about MAGA withering away and dying, I don’t mean that the MAGA crowd will all of a sudden see the light and walk away from their basic, stupid, hateful, shitty points of view just because Trump kicks the bucket. I agree that these deplorable people and their deplorable viewpoints have been around in some shape or form for a long, long time, and they will keep on keeping on. But if the MAGA movement no longer has Trump to rally around and organize and it cannot find a suitable replacement for Trump who can animate the movement, that movement will die.

Then how about we agree to agree?

[Kraken]

I don't know if the Democratic party can be rebuilt. The far left has undercut it so much that it might not be possible.

Now is the time for the Democratic right and the Republican left - the non-extreme elements of both parties - to form a new party and let the remnants of the current division bicker over the scraps.

Imagine the right without MAGA and the left without the 'not left enough' elements.

I humbly suggest that Dem enthusiasm began to wane when Harris turned to the center and tried to recruit Republicans. Many voters complain that they didn't know what she stood for; a bold agenda might have cured that.

[waitingtoconnect]

There are a few observations I have from my conservative side of the fence.

1. The small r racism and small s sexism that many democrats practice is a real turn off for people of color and women. Many Hispanics for example are extremely socially conservative and practicing Catholics. They love trump for roe v wade.
2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn. A man who has money and sleeps with women is therefore a role model. Men are frustrated they aren’t being heard and only trump is welcoming them. Many young men I know have been pulled into maga because the democrats are seen to reject them. They need to fix the perception fast.
3. Too much focus on semantics in speech. Just because I am ignorant doesn’t mean i am racist, sexist or transphobic. I’m not talking about open use of racism or Pence’s ridiculous rules on women.
4. Trying to keep everyone happy. No more no one left behind bull dust. No more I didn’t mean to say they were garbage. Say it. Your garbage.
5. I think the focus on the economy and infrastructure was excellent this term but they let the republicans take far too much credit for it.
6. Going after vanity projects like jailing trump instead of focusing on cost of living first. People care more about $5 eggs that used to be a $1 or $5 gallon gas than putting trump in jail for treason.
7. Taking so long to charge Trump and letting it drag on. I mean seriously… seriously garland must’ve wanted revenge on Obama for not being confirmed.
8. Not ditching Eric Adams and the New York Democrat circus sooner. These guys are all a bunch of crooks and have the racists waaay too much leverage.
9. Immigration. We need Australia style reform. They don’t just let anyone in. And they deport or lock up quickly and harshly.


I guess we are a long way from 1988 when Al and Tipper Gore censored music in full bipartisanship with republicans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parents ... rce_Center

[Lagom Lite]

Stupid Uninformed voters thought the inflation was Biden's fault. Coupled with Trump being a charismatic celebrity and appearing authentic (he isn't, but again, stupid uninformed) and Kamala failing to fire up the democratic base because many, many Americans are racist and sexist and think she's a communist.

You've elected a fascist and a convicted felon as head of the (by far) largest and most powerful military in the world. Yeah, thanks. That's great. Forgive me for putting it to you bluntly, but f*ck you.

My advice for next election, if indeed there will be one? Run a f*cking celebrity of your own. You apparently can't rely on your people to use their brains, so dazzle them with shinies instead.

[waitingtoconnect]

Now more than ever we need president commancho and he needs us in the battle between water and Brawndo on crops.

[Lassr]

Stupid Uninformed voters thought the inflation was Biden's fault. Coupled with Trump being a charismatic celebrity and appearing authentic (he isn't, but again, stupid uninformed) and Kamala failing to fire up the democratic base because many, many Americans are racist and sexist and think she's a communist.

You've elected a fascist and a convicted felon as head of the (by far) largest and most powerful military in the world. Yeah, thanks. That's great. Forgive me for putting it to you bluntly, but f*ck you.

My advice for next election, if indeed there will be one? Run a f*cking celebrity of your own. You apparently can't rely on your people to use their brains, so dazzle them with shinies instead.

Bingo, and you may have a point unfortunately. Maybe the dems should run some crazy acting MFer out there, that just spews lies and hate, but then does the opposite when they get in office...

There are more Americans that are just shitty people than I ever dreamed.

[hepcat]

Stupid Uninformed voters thought the inflation was Biden's fault. Coupled with Trump being a charismatic celebrity and appearing authentic (he isn't, but again, stupid uninformed) and Kamala failing to fire up the democratic base because many, many Americans are racist and sexist and think she's a communist.

You've elected a fascist and a convicted felon as head of the (by far) largest and most powerful military in the world. Yeah, thanks. That's great. Forgive me for putting it to you bluntly, but f*ck you.

My advice for next election, if indeed there will be one? Run a f*cking celebrity of your own. You apparently can't rely on your people to use their brains, so dazzle them with shinies instead.

I mean, yes. But let’s remember what we’re experiencing is also happening in many other places. Even you have admitted in the past that Sweden has issues with far right, racist politicians on the rise. A simple news search shows that to be still true. So I think we need to expand the scope on your valid complaints about the rise in power of fascists and racists.

[Lagom Lite]

Stupid Uninformed voters thought the inflation was Biden's fault. Coupled with Trump being a charismatic celebrity and appearing authentic (he isn't, but again, stupid uninformed) and Kamala failing to fire up the democratic base because many, many Americans are racist and sexist and think she's a communist.

You've elected a fascist and a convicted felon as head of the (by far) largest and most powerful military in the world. Yeah, thanks. That's great. Forgive me for putting it to you bluntly, but f*ck you.

My advice for next election, if indeed there will be one? Run a f*cking celebrity of your own. You apparently can't rely on your people to use their brains, so dazzle them with shinies instead.

I mean, yes. But let’s remember what we’re experiencing is also happening in many other places. Even you have admitted in the past that Sweden has issues with far right, racist politicians on the rise. A simple news search shows that to be still true. So I think we need to expand the scope on your valid complaints about the rise in power of fascists and racists.

Alright, let's expand it hepcat.

This American election, as well as the resurgence of European far-right populism, to me, is the culmination of the failures of centrist liberalism as ideology all across the Western world. The frustrating part is that it has a very simple solution: left-wing economic populism. You know, broad labor movements to adress acute material and social issues. Change through collective action. In your history, this last happened during FDR following the Great Depression. It doesn't have to be branded "socialist" or "marxist" or even done through unions, it can occur under the guise of religious communities or patriotism or whatever. But, collective action where people get inolved from the ground-up to solve real, structural problems together.

In Europe, mass labor movements arose to end child labor, unsafe working conditions, rampant alcoholism/drug abuse and awful treatment of workers. You know best yourself what particular issues would need to be solved in modern America, but a starting point might be housing, healthcare and poverty. As it is now, only the far right is telling people that things are bad and offering an alternative vision. The fact that their vision is grounded on division, hate and lies doesn't matter. The uninformed voter doesn't know any better and may readily accept the narrative that it's the immigrants and the communists that are the reason why your wages have been stagnant for decades.

Problem is, opening that particular can of worms will challenge the economic elites even more than what the far right is doing. These past few decades banking elites have run away with profits to the point of being a new kind of feudal lords. It's not even the "bourgeoisie" in Marxist terms anymore, that terms even seems quaint as if to say "oh, if only"... It's full on techno-feudalism at this point.

So what's the way out? Only when people get desperate enough to prioritize participating in mass movements themselves to fix the issues, and not rely on some far-away politician in the capital. Put down the iPhone and roll up your sleeves together.

[Carpet_pissr]

There are a few observations I have from my conservative side of the fence.

1. The small r racism and small s sexism that many democrats practice is a real turn off for people of color and women. Many Hispanics for example are extremely socially conservative and practicing Catholics. They love trump for roe v wade.
2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn. A man who has money and sleeps with women is therefore a role model. Men are frustrated they aren’t being heard and only trump is welcoming them. Many young men I know have been pulled into maga because the democrats are seen to reject them. They need to fix the perception fast.
3. Too much focus on semantics in speech. Just because I am ignorant doesn’t mean i am racist, sexist or transphobic. I’m not talking about open use of racism or Pence’s ridiculous rules on women.
4. Trying to keep everyone happy. No more no one left behind bull dust. No more I didn’t mean to say they were garbage. Say it. Your garbage.
5. I think the focus on the economy and infrastructure was excellent this term but they let the republicans take far too much credit for it.
6. Going after vanity projects like jailing trump instead of focusing on cost of living first. People care more about $5 eggs that used to be a $1 or $5 gallon gas than putting trump in jail for treason.
7. Taking so long to charge Trump and letting it drag on. I mean seriously… seriously garland must’ve wanted revenge on Obama for not being confirmed.
8. Not ditching Eric Adams and the New York Democrat circus sooner. These guys are all a bunch of crooks and have the racists waaay too much leverage.

After taking a day off from the news, I pored over the data this morning. From what I saw, you nailed most of it.

By far the thing that gave Trump this victory was Latino voters. In every data point I saw, it was just a massive spike from 2020 (so these are repeat voters, not new). New voters in general were about the same. I expected to see a huge spike in men, esp. young men, voting for Trump (over 2020) but it wasn't there. But they sure did turn out for him again of course. 2. above has been discussed a lot recently on NPR, and I think it's a bigger deal than anyone wants to admit. Young, straight men feel like they have done something wrong just by being that in modern liberal culture. Personally, I feel it a bit, and I'm as liberal as anyone here. I just think "we" have gone too far...again. Me Too, while absolutely amazing, and overdue really, also had very nasty, unforeseen consequences, and went too far, punishing people that probably should not have been punished.

The history of repeated sexual abuse and discrimination against women absolutely needed to be highlighted, and brought to the fore of our collective social consciences, but again, social media tends to be a nuke when a grenade would have been better.

But bottom line, it was #5, and one reason I never felt optimistic we could win. It doesn't matter whose fault or not fault the huge spike in inflation that happened post Covid was (or even that our spike was much smaller than most countries), uninformed voters have a vague idea that "things were cheaper before and now they are not". It's really that simple. We can point to data all day long about how the economy is booming, firing on all cylinders, etc. and how inflation is now at normal levels, but that DOES NOT MATTER. Sometimes we here get so focused on what SHOULD be vs what IS, that it's easy to lose sight of how probably most voters think.

It's why critical thinkers, intellectuals, educated engineers, etc etc. cannot FATHOM what happened, and how anyone could vote for such a horrible choice: most voters are not as smart as you. Most voters are not as educated as you. Most voters do not read the news like you do. Most voters do not THINK like you do (that one is debatable, but it kinda feels right). Most voters are concerned about their household's finances, period.

I don't think the crazy fringe MAGA cult crowd grew this time, thankfully, they are still fringe. But this was never going to be about them...they were the known quantity. It was always about who could pick up those who weren't wed to either ideology.

[hepcat]

Problem is, opening that particular can of worms will challenge the economic elites even more than what the far right is doing.

Sadly, it all boils down to this. The problem is less ideology and more psychology. As long as Gog gets pissed when Magog has one more stone than he does, we're going to have these problems.

People suck.

Sure there are some truly good people in this world. But the number of stories about have nots that become haves...and then become douchebags, is far too common. We need to find a way to breed out avarice and jealousy, but without destroying our drive to succeed.

Honestly, I think the only solution lies in hurrying up and inventing the replicator, as seen on the future documentary show, Star Trek.

[Skinypupy]

2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn.

The fact that the conclusion these "struggling men" take from that data is to go deeper and deeper into toxic masculinity and legislating control over women rather than examining how to better themselves explains exactly why they're in that position to begin with, no? And when women become even more selective as a result of the "alpha male" increasingly boorish behavior (because the risk associated with diminishing reproductive care options now becomes significantly greater), I'm sure they'll continue to blame everyone but themselves.

The idea that the solution to men feeling left behind is for women to lower their standards so these troglodytes can get laid and quit being so angry is fucking stupid. Up your game young men, and quit being such colossal dicks. You'd be amazed how attractive that can be.

[Isgrimnur]

[hepcat]

2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn.

The fact that the conclusion these "struggling men" take from that data is to go deeper and deeper into toxic masculinity and legislating control over women rather than examining how to better themselves explains exactly why they're in that position to begin with, no? And when women become even more selective as a result of the "alpha male" increasingly boorish behavior (because the risk associated with diminishing reproductive care options now becomes significantly greater), I'm sure they'll continue to blame everyone but themselves.

The idea that the solution to men feeling left behind is for women to lower their standards so these troglodytes can get laid and quit being so angry is fucking stupid. Up your game young men, and quit being such colossal dicks. You'd be amazed how attractive that can be.

Yeah, I was hoping that waitingtoconnect wasn't suggesting that the answer to our incel problem was to let them have what they want.

[msduncan]

Stupid Uninformed voters thought the inflation was Biden's fault. Coupled with Trump being a charismatic celebrity and appearing authentic (he isn't, but again, stupid uninformed) and Kamala failing to fire up the democratic base because many, many Americans are racist and sexist and think she's a communist.

You've elected a fascist and a convicted felon as head of the (by far) largest and most powerful military in the world. Yeah, thanks. That's great. Forgive me for putting it to you bluntly, but f*ck you.

My advice for next election, if indeed there will be one? Run a f*cking celebrity of your own. You apparently can't rely on your people to use their brains, so dazzle them with shinies instead.

Bingo, and you may have a point unfortunately. Maybe the dems should run some crazy acting MFer out there, that just spews lies and hate, but then does the opposite when they get in office...

There are more Americans that are just shitty people than I ever dreamed.

This reminds me: I just watched a fantastic documentary on Vince Mcmahon on Netflix. Took me down old wrestling memory lane... like the old stuff from the 80s all the way through current. They had a portion where Mcmahon brought in Donald Trump as a character way back before he went into politics. One of the guys being interviewed said basically what you are seeing in candidate Trump is what you saw from WWE character Trump. He conducts his rallies and campaign the same way.... actions and words that play to the crowd. They call negative reactions from a crowd 'heat', and it's just as powerful and effective as positive reactions. Trump manages to generate both positive reactions and heat like no other politician. He's a wrestling character on the national political stage basically.

[hepcat]

I think it's quite different though between selling tickets to a show because folks wanna see "negative reactions" than it is voting for a candidate based on negative things. People strain their necks to see a car wreck on the highway, but I doubt any of them want to steer their cars into oncoming traffic to create one.