Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

[LawBeefaroni]

I think it's quite different though between selling tickets to a show because folks wanna see "negative reactions" than it is voting for a candidate based on negative things. People strain their necks to see a car wreck on the highway, but I doubt any of them want to steer their cars into oncoming traffic to create one.

But a disturbing number would gladly steer your car into oncoming traffic for the lulz, if they could.

[msduncan]

I think it's quite different though between selling tickets to a show because folks wanna see "negative reactions" than it is voting for a candidate based on negative things. People strain their necks to see a car wreck on the highway, but I doubt any of them want to steer their cars into oncoming traffic to create one.

But a disturbing number would gladly steer your car into oncoming traffic for the lulz, if they could.

Right. That's what I'm getting at. We have arrived at a place in politics where seeing your perceived enemy angry/mad/hurt is just as (maybe more) satisfying than the satisfaction of having whoever you support win. That's why you see the boasting/trolling/bragging all over the place. It's not limited to MAGA either - BEFORE the election I saw tons of friends on my feed doing advanced bragging about how Trump was going to get completely stomped and then sent to jail. None of these posts had ANYTHING to do with policies.... they were purely aimed at digging the other side similar to bragging ahead of or after a football game against a rival.

I literally did that whole "take a break for 30 days" on multiple people that were pro and anti-Trump so I wouldn't have to see the nonsense.

So, in other words, generating "heat" from the opposition is just as effective to get out people that support you than it is to just appeal to them with policy proposals.

[LawBeefaroni]

Yes, it's absolutely team sport tribalism at this point. And you cannot switch teams else you lose your identity.

[hepcat]

I think it's quite different though between selling tickets to a show because folks wanna see "negative reactions" than it is voting for a candidate based on negative things. People strain their necks to see a car wreck on the highway, but I doubt any of them want to steer their cars into oncoming traffic to create one.

But a disturbing number would gladly steer your car into oncoming traffic for the lulz, if they could.

Right. That's what I'm getting at. We have arrived at a place in politics where seeing your perceived enemy angry/mad/hurt is just as (maybe more) satisfying than the satisfaction of having whoever you support win. That's why you see the boasting/trolling/bragging all over the place. It's not limited to MAGA either - BEFORE the election I saw tons of friends on my feed doing advanced bragging about how Trump was going to get completely stomped and then sent to jail. None of these posts had ANYTHING to do with policies.... they were purely aimed at digging the other side similar to bragging ahead of or after a football game against a rival.

I literally did that whole "take a break for 30 days" on multiple people that were pro and anti-Trump so I wouldn't have to see the nonsense.

So, in other words, generating "heat" from the opposition is just as effective to get out people that support you than it is to just appeal to them with policy proposals.

Got it. In this scenario, the heat being generated is the anger of your "enemy". Makes sense.

[Skinypupy]

2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn.

The fact that the conclusion these "struggling men" take from that data is to go deeper and deeper into toxic masculinity and legislating control over women rather than examining how to better themselves explains exactly why they're in that position to begin with, no? And when women become even more selective as a result of the "alpha male" increasingly boorish behavior (because the risk associated with diminishing reproductive care options now becomes significantly greater), I'm sure they'll continue to blame everyone but themselves.

The idea that the solution to men feeling left behind is for women to lower their standards so these troglodytes can get laid and quit being so angry is fucking stupid. Up your game young men, and quit being such colossal dicks. You'd be amazed how attractive that can be.

Yeah, I was hoping that waitingtoconnect wasn't suggesting that the answer to our incel problem was to let them have what they want.

I don't think he was.

But it frustrates me that this whole "male loneliness epidemic" keeps coming up over and over as an issue that women and Democrats are somehow responsible for fixing. And that incels are justified in burning everything to ash if they can't get laid.

If that makes me an out of touch liberal snob, so be it.

[ImLawBoy]

I'm interested in where those stats on incel culture come from. It's possible they're right, but I'm curious the source.

[Blackhawk]

I'm sure it's well known, but just in case, not everyone under 30 who can't get laid is an 'incel.' Very few actually subscribe to that philosophy.

A lot of it is just that the social structures we have had for finding a significant other have vanished in the age of the internet, and nothing has really replaced them. Young people who want to hang out these days don't go to the mall, or the bar, or the local hangout. They hang out with established friends online, and new people they might meet that way are likely to be thousands of miles away - a tough way to start a relationship.

I'm not sure how any political party can solve that short of China-style restrictions.

[LawBeefaroni]

This has to be be highly variable by geography.

Bars are less crowded these days but I see plenty of <30s there. Same with all the usual places; coffee shops, concerts, street fests.

Can't swing a dead cat in Lincoln Park without whapping someone between 21 and 30.



Regardless, if in-person social structures are going away for large swaths of the population, that is definitely a contributor to lack of constructive dialog. People are assholes online and tend to gravitate to the most like minded assholes they can find. And they forget how to act in the real world. Whether they call themselves incels or not.

[Blackhawk]

Those who don't forget how to act in the real world (respect and decency) still forget how to interact in the real world.

I still hesitate to call them incels, a cult-like hate culture dedicated to misogyny and blaming women for their own problems. That's different from just being a general asshole.

[ImLawBoy]

I was a little glib with incel, going with the more literal definition of "involuntary celibate" rather than the more pejorative meaning that is the more common definition. Nonetheless, I'm still interested in the source for the stats.

[Blackhawk]

I'm always interested in the sources for stats.

[Smoove_B]

I can't offer stats, but I will offer this insightful commentary.

The challenge, after a loss, is to learn something *new.* Most people aren't doing that right now. They're taking in information and trying to fit that within their prevailing world view.

The NEW thing I'm learning is: People do not and will not vote for harm mitigation...

We see this most obviously with the people who withheld their votes due to Gaza, and instead invite Trump's Armageddon. But we see it elsewhere. Latinos did not vote for harm mitigation, they voted to harm others and think they'll be spared.

White women did not vote for harm mitigation. They voted to allow white men to do harm and think they'll vicariously benefit.

Workers did not vote for harm mitigation. They voted to let Elon bring them pain and think one day his money will trickle down to them.

This... is a *problem* for the Democratic Party, because what we're selling most often is harm mitigation. It's been that way since Reagan. There's an old @billmaher joke: "Republicans are pissing you, Democrats are offering an umbrella."

Democrats see value in blunting the worst aspects of society. But a majority of people don't. A majority of people agree with Republicans that some people should be hurt (the "right" people, of course) some helped (rich people) and everybody else should just deal with reality.

People will vote for the party that appears to be harming their enemies. They'll vote for the party that seems to be directly helping their interests.

They will NOT vote for the party who is promising to do *less harm* to them than the other guys or the state of nature.

That's a hard lesson for me to learn, because I value harm mitigation greatly. DECREASING SUFFERING seems valuable to me, so the choice between a "lesser of two evils" is always easy for me to make. Less suffering IS PREFERABLE.

But people, most people, don't agree with me. Help the "worthy" harm the "unworthy", that's what they want. That's what they think is "fair." That's what they think is the point of government.

I will learn this lesson. And understand that it will lead to more suffering.

I think this resonates with me because I also vote for (and support) harm mitigation/reduction (big surprise) and never really thought (believed?) others were actively voting for or indirectly supporting harm.

I am just going to apologize in advance to my liver.

[Blackhawk]

I can't offer stats, but I will offer this insightful commentary.

Thus reminding me again that while I hold my views and ethics strongly (and won't compromise them for my benefit or convenience), I'm not a great fit for this world.

[LawBeefaroni]

Makes sense to me. My whole voting life has been picking the lesser of two evils. I have never rallied behind a candidate (except maybe some local races) and don't consider party at all when deciding. I cringe when I see people celebrating or crying after election results. The national conventions are ridiculous displays of blind devotion.

The problems is, what do we do with this information about voters and harm reduction? Most voters vote the way they do for the wrong reasons, OK, now what?

I guess the message is for the DNC to start being dicks?


My old boss always said "Hope is not a strategy". One viral poster in 2012 and the Dems latched on to hope as a strategy. It's not.

[Smoove_B]

Thus reminding me again that while I hold my views and ethics strongly (and won't compromise them for my benefit or convenience), I'm not a great fit for this world.

I saw this yesterday after a similar message started trending on social media in response to the election and I had to go sit down. I should have realized (accepted?) so much more in the early days of COVID-19 but I just couldn't. After Tuesday? I don't need any more proof.

[Blackhawk]

Convictions held based on self-interest aren't really convictions held.

[Grifman]

[hepcat]

It's hard to see it as any other outcome.

[waitingtoconnect]

2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn.

The fact that the conclusion these "struggling men" take from that data is to go deeper and deeper into toxic masculinity and legislating control over women rather than examining how to better themselves explains exactly why they're in that position to begin with, no? And when women become even more selective as a result of the "alpha male" increasingly boorish behavior (because the risk associated with diminishing reproductive care options now becomes significantly greater), I'm sure they'll continue to blame everyone but themselves.

The idea that the solution to men feeling left behind is for women to lower their standards so these troglodytes can get laid and quit being so angry is fucking stupid. Up your game young men, and quit being such colossal dicks. You'd be amazed how attractive that can be.

Yeah, I was hoping that waitingtoconnect wasn't suggesting that the answer to our incel problem was to let them have what they want.

No you want to engage with them more and have policies that address their concerns rather than ignoring them such that then they go and “do their research” with role models like Elon, Donald et al . Once young men are down the rabbit hole believe me it’s almost impossible to get them out of it. It’s like programming. I had one young man tell me the other day that black women on television shows was the thing that had ruined America and he couldn’t wait for Trump to change it.

That engaging can be done with men like Tim Walz and authentic real men who clearly love thier wives and families as equals. You have to silence the narrative that democrats don’t care about men.

[hepcat]

What policies are you advocating?

[waitingtoconnect]

That’s an insane perspective. 1984 was a repudiation.

This election was close all the way. If you put 100 Americans in a room, roughly 38 would have voted for Trump, 36 would have voted for Harris, 1 would have voted for someone else and 25 would have stayed home.

[Blackhawk]

This election was close all the way. If you put 100 Americans in a room, roughly 38 would have voted for Trump, 36 would have voted for Harris, 1 would have voted for someone else and 25 would have stayed home.

They wouldn't have been able to be in the room long enough to vote without a Blazing Saddles scale fistfight breaking out.

[waitingtoconnect]

What policies are you advocating?

Young men need leadership most of all. Right now in their thirst for it they are following men like Trump and Musk and Andrew Tate.

[hepcat]

But what policies would help with that endeavor?

[ImLawBoy]

Any source on those stats yet, waitingtoconnect?

[hepcat]

The only stats I've seen are the inverse of what he wrote. 15 to 20 percent haven't had their first kiss by 18.

Of course, as a young man, I would have told them when I was 13 that I had "kissed plenty of dames....especially my girlfriend in Canada...who I kiss A LOT!"

[Smoove_B]

Any source on those stats yet, waitingtoconnect?

Not sure about his stats, but the CDC does track this annually through the Youth Behavior Survey system:

In 2021, a total of 30% of U.S high school students reported ever having had sexual intercourse, with nearly one fourth having sex in the past 3 months

That is from the most current report (2023), published in September of 2024.

That said, from February of 2023:

The newly released 2021 data from the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Survey (YRBS) has received a great deal of attention this week. Many media outlets have reported on the disturbing increase in the percentage of teenagers who said they had seriously considered attempting suicide. There is certainly much in this report that is concerning. However, the report contains some positive news as well. For instance, new data from the Youth Risk Behavior Survey shows that the long-term decline in teen sexual activity continues.

Between 2019 and 2021, the percentage of high-school students who reported “ever having sex” fell from 38 percent to 30 percent — a decline of eight percentage points. During the same time period, there was a six-point decline in the percentage of high-school students said they were “sexually active” and a three-point decline in the percentage who reported four or more sexual partners.

Of course there was that whole COVID-19 thing going on which I'm sure impacted rizz, but I do think even before that there has been a steady decrease over the last decade. The drop noted here was significant.

EDIT: Even better, from December of 2023:

Specifically, between 2002 and the period 2015–2019, the percentage of teen boys (15–19) who ever had sexual intercourse fell from 45.7 percent to 38.7 percent. During the same period, the percentage of teen girls (15–19) who ever had sexual intercourse fell from 45.5 percent to 40.5 percent. This decline in teen sexual activity was covered by news outlets including USA Today and Salon.

However, what has largely gone unreported is the even longer-term decline in the percentage of sexually active teens. Multiple surveys find that the percentage of teens who were sexually active peaked in the late 1980s or early 1990s. However, this new NSFG data finds that the percentage of teen girls who ever had sexual intercourse has fallen by more than 10 percentage points since 1988. Even more impressively, the percentage of teen boys who ever had sexual intercourse fell by more than 21 percentage points since 1988.

[ImLawBoy]

Multiple surveys find that the percentage of teens who were sexually active peaked in the late 1980s or early 1990s.

I've been bucking trends since the '80s!

[Skinypupy]

No you want to engage with them more and have policies that address their concerns rather than ignoring them such that then they go and “do their research” with role models like Elon, Donald et al . Once young men are down the rabbit hole believe me it’s almost impossible to get them out of it. It’s like programming. I had one young man tell me the other day that black women on television shows was the thing that had ruined America and he couldn’t wait for Trump to change it.

That engaging can be done with men like Tim Walz and authentic real men who clearly love thier wives and families as equals. You have to silence the narrative that democrats don’t care about men.

Making positive role models like Walz is about media, not government policy.

Young men never see that sort of message because that it will never make nearly as much money as farming rage bait and grievance. What motivation does any media outlet have to show it? It's the same reason you rarely see any good news in broadcasts, it doesn't draw nearly as many eyeballs.

How you go about changing that dynamic is entirely beyond me.

[waitingtoconnect]

2. There is not a war on men as is portrayed by Maga but often grievances or issues young men in particular have are not listened to. Attempting to talk about these issues are seen to be shut down immediately as privileged people talking over people with real issues. And men feel shut down. Around the world only 10-15% of boys have had their first kiss by 18. Many haven’t had a relationship by 30. Most young men under 30 haven’t had sex in the las year and have no prospects of attracting a woman and forming a family. Their only relationship with women is through porn.

The fact that the conclusion these "struggling men" take from that data is to go deeper and deeper into toxic masculinity and legislating control over women rather than examining how to better themselves explains exactly why they're in that position to begin with, no? And when women become even more selective as a result of the "alpha male" increasingly boorish behavior (because the risk associated with diminishing reproductive care options now becomes significantly greater), I'm sure they'll continue to blame everyone but themselves.

The idea that the solution to men feeling left behind is for women to lower their standards so these troglodytes can get laid and quit being so angry is fucking stupid. Up your game young men, and quit being such colossal dicks. You'd be amazed how attractive that can be.

Yeah, I was hoping that waitingtoconnect wasn't suggesting that the answer to our incel problem was to let them have what they want.

I don't think he was.

But it frustrates me that this whole "male loneliness epidemic" keeps coming up over and over as an issue that women and Democrats are somehow responsible for fixing. And that incels are justified in burning everything to ash if they can't get laid.

If that makes me an out of touch liberal snob, so be it.

It’s not for democrats to fix. But right now young men support trump 70-30. I don’t know exactly how but that needs to change or we face Gilead in our time.

It’s a negative male trait for men to make their own sexism/racism about them. Look at the garbage comment Biden made. They were racist but only they could be offended when it was turned on them.

If you supported the comment on Puerto Rico you are garbage in my book.

South Park s episode with apologies to Jesse Jackson showcases this very well. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0940288/

Randy says the n-word on television when botching a wheel of fortune answer. He is widely mocked and called the n-word guy. Helped by other white men who have been cancelled for using the n-word they successfully lobby Congress to protect n-word guys by banning the use of term.

[msduncan]

Having just jumped on dating sites after my divorce back in February and then immediately finding a gf..... all I can say is that she told me that the dating scene is trash, most of the guys are toxic or just out for one thing, and lots of them have zero direction in life. She would go on a date or so and then kick them to the curb. I don't think that's Democrats' fault or anyone else's fault except the men on the dating sites.

[waitingtoconnect]

Any source on those stats yet, waitingtoconnect?

In Japan, which tends to be a lead indicator of where we are going in young men, so few boys are having relationships with girls the government is really worried. https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... na/016000c

I realise I made a mistake in my original post. Most young men have not had a relationship but 2 in 3 have had sex in the last year not most as I originally said.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog ... nd-sexless

Mock me if you must..

Scott Galloway has been talking about this as well:
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/31/poli ... ish-digvid

It’s a worldwide issue as well. If only the world’s western young men could vote, Trump would win massively.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-28/ ... /104522558

43 per cent of young Australian men say they’d vote for Trump if they could, compared to 34 per cent who’d go for Harris. The numbers are similar in New Zealand, with 40 per cent of young men backing Trump compared to 34 per cent for Harris.

Compare those stats with Australians as a whole. It’s a similar story worldwide : men are rejecting RINO conservatism and Democrat liberalism and turning to trump.

[hepcat]

I'm highly dubious of any claim that Japan is a lead indicator of young men and sexuality.

[waitingtoconnect]

I'm highly dubious of any claim that Japan is a lead indicator of young men and sexuality.

Scott Galloway suggested as such in a lecture I saw but I can’t find the link to that. Nevertheless whatever maga is doing it’s capturing young men around the world and that concerns me.

I want my daughters to get a man who wants to be Gomez not a man who wants to beTate.

[hepcat]

I'm highly dubious of any claim by Scott Galloway on anything but marketing.

But circling back, the discussion was over your claim that we needed to address young men who weren't gettin' any action (if I might paraphrase) and were angry about that...so...incels. You threw out some rather startling statistics (that I can't find any source for) in the process, and stated that we needed to address that group via policies.

What policies do you advocate that will address the grievances driving the incel community to support Trump?

[Blackhawk]

The only related thing that I think could and (maybe) should be addressed is the loss of socialization, mutual understanding, and 'community', but that would be more of an information campaign and/or subsidized local initiatives (the kind a First Lady/Gentleman might helm) rather than anything to do with policy.

[LawBeefaroni]

Chicago went from 82% Biden in 2020 to 77% Harris in 2024. That is some serious shift considering Chicago's tendencies. Clinton won 83% in 2016.

Map here:
https://blockclubchicago.org/2024/11/06 ... ction-map/

[raydude]

The problem could be that young men are not feeling the sense of being part of a community or that they don't have a support group or mentors that show them it's ok to say "hey I need help, and I need support". To that end, I can think of two example organizations that our local high school has which are helping young men.

The first is Youth in Progress, which started out as "The Soccer Club" and was a way to reach out to young Hispanic males using soccer to help build bonds and motivate them to participate in tutoring sessions. It has since expanded and well:

YIP reengages vulnerable students through a multifaceted approach:

The program uses soccer as a means to build teamwork and discipline while creating a positive outlet for students.
YIP offers academic support by providing tutoring in core subjects, helping students catch up and excel in academics.
The program’s workshops and seminars expose students to various career paths, encouraging them to envision a successful future.
YIP helps to foster a supportive environment at home, providing resources to parents and hosting seminars that reinforce a student’s educational goals and overall well-being.

You may say "well, that's just academic stuff" but I would argue this is more than just getting the kids to learn. It's about getting them support - which probably at times also extends to mental and emotional support (see "overall well-being" as one of the goals).

The second is Cornerstone Craftsman Vision which is more focused on teaching the students valuable trade skills and showing them a possible rewarding future that doesn't require them having college debt or worrying about what kind of jobs they could get if they didn't get into a good college. Again one could argue that this doesn't get to the heart of what waitingtoconnect is saying, but I think focusing on "they mad because they no have sex" is too narrow a viewpoint. The young men we're talking about are probably in a downward spiral of "I'm not good at stuff. But I'd like to be with girls. But they only go for guys with money, but I'm not good at stuff, so I can't get money, but damnit they should like me for who I am, but who am I kidding I'm not good at stuff".

Of course, looking at those two websites one sees that they are minority focused but there's nothing that says similar things can't be done to engage disaffected young white males. We just need to find out how to connect with them. And yes, this is definitely a grassroots, start at the local level kind of effort. But maybe at the national or policy level one could provide grants to help kickstart these kinds of initiatives.

[LawBeefaroni]

Of course, looking at those two websites one sees that they are minority focused but there's nothing that says similar things can't be done to engage disaffected young white males. We just need to find out how to connect with them. And yes, this is definitely a grassroots, start at the local level kind of effort.

They have them for young white males. They're called active clubs.

The Active Club Podcast and subsequent media efforts by R.A.M. seek to have members build their own localized Active Clubs worldwide. Rundo describes these “Active Clubs” as “small-styled local clubs [that] combine fitness and nationalist activism, building camaraderie, and developing team-building skills. Simultaneously, creating an alternative to the toxic left-wing culture and providing a model for others to follow.”

...

Rundo states that the intentions for R.A.M. and subsequent Active Clubs have been largely inspired by European MMA-ultranationalists groups including White REX, Confident Hooligan, and Generation Identity. He sought to “fill the gap” within the American white supremacist scene by focusing on “physical training,” creating MMA-styled athletic clubs that would force the predominantly online alt-right meme culture toward real-world engagement.

We definitely need alternatives to these groups.

[waitingtoconnect]

I'm highly dubious of any claim by Scott Galloway on anything but marketing.

But circling back, the discussion was over your claim that we needed to address young men who weren't gettin' any action (if I might paraphrase) and were angry about that...so...incels. You threw out some rather startling statistics (that I can't find any source for) in the process, and stated that we needed to address that group via policies.

What policies do you advocate that will address the grievances driving the incel community to support Trump?

The incel community isn’t the issue. They are bunch of morons. It’s young men as a whole that are being driven to Maga.

It’s not just about policy. Democrat policies in general are good ones.

1. I would ban algorithm based suggestions from social media. If you look it up yourself fine.
2. Young men need resiliency training. Kids need to be taught how to fail. Jessica rejected you - move on, you suck at basketball - practice, you got a C- work harder next time.
3. I would show young men if they work hard and if they do well they will succeed. With real role models. Young men respond badly to being told what to do. But they respond to leadership.
4. ban social media and online video gaming for under 18s.
5. Properly funded public education and civics training. A informed population is a successful population. the 1960s we put 10%+ of our gdp into nasa and education because we wanted to beat the soviets to the moon. We reaped the rewards of that for 40 years.
6. Rebuild community spirit with college credit/money toward college for community service in your local area or peace corps service.

Perhaps we have lost the current set of boys but one thing is clear, worldwide in the west we have bred a generation of young men who by and large aren’t attractive to young women and who have far right tendencies.