I’d just be doing ths constantly to people while yelling “why you hitting yourself?” over and over.
Fun fact: in the Harvard Lampoon parody Doon: The Desert Planet, the sisterhood use the voice to annoy people into doing what they want. The customary use of the voice is “get out of the kitchen, it’ll be ready when it’s ready” in the best whiny voice they can muster.
Herbert was enamored of theories of mass-psychology in the 1950s and 60s, when there was a huge concern with how advertising and propaganda could manipulate whole populations. (This was the kind of period concern that animated the deeper themes in the show MAD MEN.) Some of those ideas seemed quaint and outdated by the turn of the 21st century, but then social media came along...
I think the Voice for Herbert was just a singularly focused version of psychological influence. The speaker taps into whatever vulnerabilities they can detect in you and then uses them to temporarily condition your response to a command.
It's not magic. It's just deep and instant psychological manipulation.
So... is this worth watching or is it just a dumb prequel where the writers think it's important to give us the origin stories for insignificant details?
Archinerd wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:19 am
So... is this worth watching or is it just a dumb prequel where the writers think it's important to give us the origin stories for insignificant details?
The first episode was pretty much that (except for the last 30 seconds). Now they will either use it as background for an actual, you know, plot...or not.
Archinerd wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:19 am
So... is this worth watching or is it just a dumb prequel where the writers think it's important to give us the origin stories for insignificant details?
Despite my nerdpicking, it is definitely worth watching if you like the Dune universe.
I have no idea where the show is going, but it's clear that it has ambition.
I always have to remember Spartacus. When it aired its first episode, I hated it. It felt like a ripoff of 300. From the story to the visuals. I was ready to write it off. Then someone here told me to give it another shot...and lo and behold, they added in all the stuff that a show about Rome during that time period needs: politics and ruthless people. After that, I was on board.
Dune: Prophecy needs that. What is the Empire in Dune if not a version of Rome under some of the more ruthless emperors? Hopefully they'll steer into that soon. At least more than they have.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
El Guapo wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 12:58 am
Yeah I liked the first episode. Too soon to judge the show overall. If you like Dune I'd jump in, if you're neutral then might as well wait.
I like Dune quite a bit, but more isn't always better.
Archinerd wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:19 am
So... is this worth watching or is it just a dumb prequel where the writers think it's important to give us the origin stories for insignificant details?
Despite my nerdpicking, it is definitely worth watching if you like the Dune universe.
I have no idea where the show is going, but it's clear that it has ambition.
The thing is, the Dune universe, even before it was bequeathed to Brian, was pretty massive. Brian had plenty of opportunity to fill in the gaps...but we're talking thousands of years, most of which haven't been addressed. The incredulous part is that the same power brokers (Corrino, Atreides, Harkonnen, BG, Guild, etc.) remain such for millennia. The Atreides trace their roots to the Agamemnon of the Trojan War for fuck's sake.
It is certainly possible to create a show that takes place in a limited period among this vast fiction. I would like to see the period when Atreides and Harkonnen were besties, then things went horribly wrong.
Jaymann wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:29 am
Was Burnie Sanders in the books or is he an invention of the show? He seems way OP.
Invention, as far as I can tell. I can't get my head around what he is supposed to be, except that he is NOT actually a prophet in the literal sense. But here are some options:
Spoiler:
- An early Tleilaxu Ghola. Which would explain how he "survived" the Worm attack (although, they would still need to find some part of his body cells for that, so I don't know). See how confused he looks moments after Valya asks him where he grew up? Gholas have trouble remembering their past life. It would explain the burning ability also - Gholas are often augmented with tech gadgets. Although it's too early for Tleilaxu Gholas, so instead:
- An Ixian invention, forbidden technology coupled with some kind of bio-tech to make him appear human. Would explain how he can withstand the Voice as well as lie to a Truthsayer.
- Crazy option: He is a natural-born "wild" first Kwisatz Haderach, perhaps a product of some spice agony in the Worm's belly and the reason why the sisters set their aim at finding a male BG as the end-goal of their breeding program. They've only talked about breeding "better leaders" so far as far as I can tell. No mention of a supreme being. Maybe Desmond is even a product of the far future God-Emperor, projecting backwards in time somehow.
Currently, I'm leaning Ixian thinking machine cyborg with some early Tleilaxu cloning techniques on top, like a Terminator skin. The show has been showing us that people are still afraid of thinking machines, and we've seen visions of "Arafel" which refers to a Terminator-like future where people hide in holes to avoid the automated hunter-seekers. It's the end of days, and the God-Emperor remarks that as a result of his actions, "the Ixians can no longer create Arefel" (=can no longer destroy humanity with technology) as a result of his reign.
God, I'm such a nerd. I do like the show for what it is. Sure the writing is clunky and exposition-heavy at times, but that's how it goes sometimes.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Episode two is good: no explanation is yet offered for Burnie, but it's a strong politics-heavy episode that doesn't make any big missteps.
Still, I feel like the explanation for where the BG actually get/got their powers is being handwaved away, and there's another example of that here:
Spoiler:
We're told that the first/founding Reverend Mother was once poisoned, and so she found a way to manipulate and break down the poison in her body (as if that's something someone could do), which in turn led to the spice agony and access to Other Memory.
At best, I guess we are to presume that this is something spice makes possible in the future through its mystical chemical properties, but if that's the case then why would this process be limited to the BG?
Jaymann wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2024 3:29 am
Was Burnie Sanders in the books or is he an invention of the show? He seems way OP.
Invention, as far as I can tell. I can't get my head around what he is supposed to be, except that he is NOT actually a prophet in the literal sense. But here are some options:
Spoiler:
- An early Tleilaxu Ghola. Which would explain how he "survived" the Worm attack (although, they would still need to find some part of his body cells for that, so I don't know). See how confused he looks moments after Valya asks him where he grew up? Gholas have trouble remembering their past life. It would explain the burning ability also - Gholas are often augmented with tech gadgets. Although it's too early for Tleilaxu Gholas, so instead:
- An Ixian invention, forbidden technology coupled with some kind of bio-tech to make him appear human. Would explain how he can withstand the Voice as well as lie to a Truthsayer.
- Crazy option: He is a natural-born "wild" first Kwisatz Haderach, perhaps a product of some spice agony in the Worm's belly and the reason why the sisters set their aim at finding a male BG as the end-goal of their breeding program. They've only talked about breeding "better leaders" so far as far as I can tell. No mention of a supreme being. Maybe Desmond is even a product of the far future God-Emperor, projecting backwards in time somehow.
Currently, I'm leaning Ixian thinking machine cyborg with some early Tleilaxu cloning techniques on top, like a Terminator skin. The show has been showing us that people are still afraid of thinking machines, and we've seen visions of "Arafel" which refers to a Terminator-like future where people hide in holes to avoid the automated hunter-seekers. It's the end of days, and the God-Emperor remarks that as a result of his actions, "the Ixians can no longer create Arefel" (=can no longer destroy humanity with technology) as a result of his reign.
God, I'm such a nerd. I do like the show for what it is. Sure the writing is clunky and exposition-heavy at times, but that's how it goes sometimes.
Good ideas! My thoughts:
Spoiler:
He has clearly been transformed through an experience with spice and Shai-Hulud. He should be dead (or maybe was dead) but isn't. This suggests that his powers are mental/organic rather than some kind of designed technological creation.
A wild proto- Kwisatz Haderach makes a lot of sense. You're right that we haven't yet seen the BG characters talk about a male who can see into that side of the Other Memory. Perhaps this character makes them realize that it is possible and that they should aim for it. (So far their expressed goals have been all about influencing the Great Houses and getting a Sister on or close to the throne.)
His resistance to the Voice in ep2 suggests that he is on the same wavelength as the BG. Plus, of course, he wants to destroy them for reasons not fully explained.
Of course even Paul and Leto II didn't have the ability to set people on fire from a distance, so that still needs explaining.
Some thoughts on what the Burning ability is and what implications this may have:
Spoiler:
When the Suk Doctor autopsies Kasha, she states that there is "no trace of an agent" but that she suffered an overload of her "meridian network", which is chinese alternative medicine lingo for "qi" or mystical lifeforce. So we know that Kasha was not poisoned in some traditional sense. This implies that either Desmond can cook people from half a galaxy away (unlikely), or there is a second Desmond at Wallach IX - probably one of the acolytes. This would mean Desmond is NOT a Kwisatz Haderach - or at least, his burning ability is not part of it if there are others like him about.
There are a few characters who are hinted as having been "captured" (by the machines?) but rescued. Constantine, Ynez, maybe one or more acolyte Sisters. Maybe they've been tampered with? By machines? By Tleilaxu? There is a strange throwaway scene between Kasha and Ynez, where Kasha says goodbye to Ynez and kisses her on the forehead, while mentioning that Ynez was captured but is now the hope for the future.
I wonder if Ynez is somehow responsible for Kasha's death, and that she is something similar to Desmond. Or maybe Theodosia, or Jen, who were at the same planet as Kasha when she died.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
Lagom Lite wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:49 am
Some thoughts on what the Burning ability is and what implications this may have:
Spoiler:
When the Suk Doctor autopsies Kasha, she states that there is "no trace of an agent" but that she suffered an overload of her "meridian network", which is chinese alternative medicine lingo for "qi" or mystical lifeforce. So we know that Kasha was not poisoned in some traditional sense. This implies that either Desmond can cook people from half a galaxy away (unlikely), or there is a second Desmond at Wallach IX - probably one of the acolytes. This would mean Desmond is NOT a Kwisatz Haderach - or at least, his burning ability is not part of it if there are others like him about.
There are a few characters who are hinted as having been "captured" (by the machines?) but rescued. Constantine, Ynez, maybe one or more acolyte Sisters. Maybe they've been tampered with? By machines? By Tleilaxu? There is a strange throwaway scene between Kasha and Ynez, where Kasha says goodbye to Ynez and kisses her on the forehead, while mentioning that Ynez was captured but is now the hope for the future.
I wonder if Ynez is somehow responsible for Kasha's death, and that she is something similar to Desmond. Or maybe Theodosia, or Jen, who were at the same planet as Kasha when she died.
On being captured:
Spoiler:
Ynez says she was captured by rebels against her father, and that it was hushed up. Since we also see rebels in the episode, and they are very human (and chiefly concerned with the Great Houses keeping all the Spice for themselves), a machine connection seems unlikely.
On timeline:
I'm going to treat this show as its own timeline. That being said, is it clear how long ago the Machine War (I don't think "Butlerian Jihad" has been said, has it?) actually was?
I'm under the impression that it was a long time ago even for the show's era. The Corrino Imperium seems to be already pretty well established.
We know that an Atreides hero shamed a Harkonnen at the climactic Battle of Corrin, and the Emperor's sword master is said to be a "descendent" (implying some distance in time greater than "son" or "grandson") of "the great _____ Atreides," presumably that Atreides hero.
Where is Vorien in all this? He is still alive and was investigating the Orrey murder and I think accidentally or was forced to kill Tula's / Vaya's brother.
It has been awhile since I read the book.
The thing is, the Dune universe, even before it was bequeathed to Brian, was pretty massive. Brian had plenty of opportunity to fill in the gaps...but we're talking thousands of years, most of which haven't been addressed. The incredulous part is that the same power brokers (Corrino, Atreides, Harkonnen, BG, Guild, etc.) remain such for millennia. The Atreides trace their roots to the Agamemnon of the Trojan War for fuck's sake.
God Emperor Leto II knew what he was doing when he broke the backs of the Great Houses and set up the conditions for The Scattering. I think thousands of years of being ruled by the same families was enough.
"Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those Black jobs?"
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
$iljanus wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 3:01 pm
God Emperor Leto II knew what he was doing when he broke the backs of the Great Houses and set up the conditions for The Scattering.
In JeffV's fan erotica stories, it's actually referred to as the Scat-tering.
$iljanus wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 3:01 pm
God Emperor Leto II knew what he was doing when he broke the backs of the Great Houses and set up the conditions for The Scattering.
In JeffV's fan erotica stories, it's actually referred to as the Scat-tering.
LOL I interpreted your post as space travellers scatting their way across the cosmos.
"Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those Black jobs?"
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
Jeff V wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:28 am
The thing is, the Dune universe, even before it was bequeathed to Brian, was pretty massive. Brian had plenty of opportunity to fill in the gaps...but we're talking thousands of years, most of which haven't been addressed. The incredulous part is that the same power brokers (Corrino, Atreides, Harkonnen, BG, Guild, etc.) remain such for millennia. The Atreides trace their roots to the Agamemnon of the Trojan War for fuck's sake.
FWIW, I don't think the Atreides (before Paul's awakening) actually *know* that they are descended from Agamemnon.
I mean, Herbert obviously intends it because Atreides is so close to the ancient Greek house of Atreus, but none of the characters refer to it until (IIRC) either Alia or Leto II (who both have access to countless ancestral memories) mentions hearing the voice of an ancient ancestor calling himself Agamemnon.
The thing is, the Dune universe, even before it was bequeathed to Brian, was pretty massive. Brian had plenty of opportunity to fill in the gaps...but we're talking thousands of years, most of which haven't been addressed. The incredulous part is that the same power brokers (Corrino, Atreides, Harkonnen, BG, Guild, etc.) remain such for millennia. The Atreides trace their roots to the Agamemnon of the Trojan War for fuck's sake.
God Emperor Leto II knew what he was doing when he broke the backs of the Great Houses and set up the conditions for The Scattering. I think thousands of years of being ruled by the same families was enough.
I would agree with that, but thousands of years later, there was still an endless lineage of Duncan Idahos.
Jeff V wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:28 am
The thing is, the Dune universe, even before it was bequeathed to Brian, was pretty massive. Brian had plenty of opportunity to fill in the gaps...but we're talking thousands of years, most of which haven't been addressed. The incredulous part is that the same power brokers (Corrino, Atreides, Harkonnen, BG, Guild, etc.) remain such for millennia. The Atreides trace their roots to the Agamemnon of the Trojan War for fuck's sake.
FWIW, I don't think the Atreides (before Paul's awakening) actually *know* that they are descended from Agamemnon.
I mean, Herbert obviously intends it because Atreides is so close to the ancient Greek house of Atreus, but none of the characters refer to it until (IIRC) either Alia or Leto II (who both have access to countless ancestral memories) mentions hearing the voice of an ancient ancestor calling himself Agamemnon.
In Brian's books, one of the machines fought against by an Atreides descendent was named Agamemnon, and he was the baddest-ass of the robots.
So, Valya knows a Face Dancer. And here I thought they had enough unfinished plot threads already. It's going to be interesting to see how they wrap the season up; only two episodes to go.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?
"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
The budget for scenery in this show must be astronomical in order to keep any around after Fimmel gets done chewing through it. Everyone else is making a Dune series. He’s making Macbeth…while high as a kite.
Spoiler:
Also, that’s clearly Decepticon in the visions the sisters are having. I really hope they save the Bumblebee appearance until season 2
hepcat wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2024 9:33 pm
The budget for scenery in this show must be astronomical in order to keep any around after Fimmel gets done chewing through it. Everyone else is making a Dune series. He’s making Macbeth…while high as a kite.
Lagom Lite wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:11 pm
Episode 4:
Spoiler:
So, Valya knows a Face Dancer. And here I thought they had enough unfinished plot threads already. It's going to be interesting to see how they wrap the season up; only two episodes to go.
I know lore is no guide at this point, but
Spoiler:
My perhaps erroneous impression is that the various special "schools" of humanity (the BG, Guild Navigators, mentats, Suk doctors, Face Dancers, etc) developed themselves *after* the Butlerian Jihad/machine war. Since we now know the show is set only a century past that point, it seems weird to see a fully developed Face Dancer already able to transform in minutes.
