Shootings

[Alefroth]

I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.

It's possible this guy was not the criminal mastermind that many people suspected during the initial stages of the manhunt.

He eluded electronic surveillance quite expertly. They only found him through a random F2F interaction, when he showed his face at a McDonalds.

Wasn't it him not eluding electronic surveillance that provided pictures of him that led to his capture?

[hepcat]

I think this shooting and the response to it showed that Americans are united in their view that the healthcare is broken. Hopefully that is enough to push for a change. Just because US is a capitalist country doesn't mean you can't have a socialist solution for healthcare. Not everything has to be profit oriented.

The care system itself -- practitioners, facilities, equipment, etc. -- is mostly fine.

I disagree with this. Hospitals are charging outrageous prices that are so wildy different from even hospitals in the same city that it's out of control. They then negotiate preferential pricing with health insurance providers that are (at least I believe) willing to play ball with them. A hospital charge is often the biggest health care bill a person in need of care receives, but good luck getting any real transparency on what they paid for.

Practitioners are wined and dined and given incentives by pharmaceutical companies to navigate their patients to the drugs made by those companies. Even when they don't need them.

Our health care system is broken at every level. That absolutely includes practitioners and facilities.

[LordMortis]

I think this shooting and the response to it showed that Americans are united in their view that the healthcare is broken. Hopefully that is enough to push for a change. Just because US is a capitalist country doesn't mean you can't have a socialist solution for healthcare. Not everything has to be profit oriented.

The care system itself -- practitioners, facilities, equipment, etc. -- is mostly fine.

I disagree with this. Hospitals are charging outrageous prices that are so wildy different from even hospitals in the same city that it's out of control. They then negotiate preferential pricing with health insurance providers that are (at least I believe) willing to play ball with them. A hospital charge is often the biggest health care bill a person in need of care receives, but good luck getting any real transparency on what they paid for.

Practitioners are wined and dined and given incentives by pharmaceutical companies to navigate their patients to the drugs made by those companies.

Our health care system is broken at every level. That absolutely includes practitioners and facilities.

+1. Every level. Medical Equipment and prescriptions and Insurance of many types, not just directly medical figure in to this. Long term care and hospice pay their attending staff peanuts and yet charge into the five figure a month. All this money is going somewhere and when the money is a coded illusion, it's an illusion for the purpose of???... A hose from durable equipment company will run three digits through insurance that you can buy grey market for under $10 and the maker of the cheap hose is still doing OK on that price, as you can get the thing non medical grade for a couple of bucks. The prescription defensiveness has been happening for longer than I have been adulting.

[Smoove_B]

Wasn't it him not eluding electronic surveillance that provided pictures of him that led to his capture?

There's been some discussion about all this as it hasn't been entirely revealed how they found him. All that has been stated is that "someone" (not a worker) recognized him inside the McDonalds and called 911. This feels...highly suspicious that a random person in Altoona, PA recognized him from various blurry photos that only contained his eyes and face. Someone almost 300 miles away looks like a guy wanted for murder in NYC? That feels...excessive.

It seems more likely something else was going on. Like there's a tool or technology the police were using that we aren't aware of. Like this.

[hepcat]

I’m guessing they got a lot of calls from folks claiming to have seen him. But I believe they had a general idea of the area he fled to based on previous info, so maybe they paid special attention to calls from that area?

[LawBeefaroni]

I’m guessing they got a lot of calls from folks claiming to have seen him. But I believe they had a general idea of the area he fled to based on previous info, so maybe they paid special attention to calls from that area?

When law enforcement made contact, they found a gun on him which gave them reason to arrest him (not sure of the local laws but I assume he was carrying illegally). Whether they knew it was him for sure at the time or not didn't matter, they had reason to hold him and then they identified him as the suspect in the NY. case. So even if it was one of dozens of calls, when they followed up they had reason to arrest hum.

[Max Peck]

I’m guessing they got a lot of calls from folks claiming to have seen him. But I believe they had a general idea of the area he fled to based on previous info, so maybe they paid special attention to calls from that area?

When law enforcement made contact, they found a gun on him which gave them reason to arrest him (not sure of the local laws but I assume he was carrying illegally). Whether they knew it was him for sure at the time or not didn't matter, they had reason to hold him and then they identified him as the suspect in the NY. case. So even if it was one of dozens of calls, when they followed up they had reason to arrest hum.

One article I read quoted the arresting cop as saying he knew it was him as soon as he lowered his mask. I'm guessing that means he was wearing a medical mask -- masking up is a fine way to hide your face from surveillance cameras, but not a great way to blend into the crowd most places these days. Along with the gun, he was apparently carrying his fake ID, his hand-written manifesto/confession and a suspiciously large amount of cash, so once the cop started talking to him he was finished one way or another. If the cop is honest in saying he recognized him, then he was going to find a reason to hold him no matter what.

[Isgrimnur]

Oni masks to conceal your face shape are the way to go.

[Max Peck]

For a true revolutionary, there can be only one correct choice:



It's never wrong to go with the classics.

[Isgrimnur]

Too limited on visibility. Not to mention you're paying Warner Brothers for the privilege.

[Kraken]

I think this shooting and the response to it showed that Americans are united in their view that the healthcare is broken. Hopefully that is enough to push for a change. Just because US is a capitalist country doesn't mean you can't have a socialist solution for healthcare. Not everything has to be profit oriented.

The care system itself -- practitioners, facilities, equipment, etc. -- is mostly fine.

I disagree with this. Hospitals are charging outrageous prices that are so wildy different from even hospitals in the same city that it's out of control. They then negotiate preferential pricing with health insurance providers that are (at least I believe) willing to play ball with them. A hospital charge is often the biggest health care bill a person in need of care receives, but good luck getting any real transparency on what they paid for.

Practitioners are wined and dined and given incentives by pharmaceutical companies to navigate their patients to the drugs made by those companies. Even when they don't need them.

Our health care system is broken at every level. That absolutely includes practitioners and facilities.

This is all about pricing and billing.

[Max Peck]

Too limited on visibility. Not to mention you're paying Warner Brothers for the privilege.

Sometimes you need to sacrifice functionality for style. And the head honchos at Warner Bros will back off if they don't want to move up in The List.

[hepcat]

I think this shooting and the response to it showed that Americans are united in their view that the healthcare is broken. Hopefully that is enough to push for a change. Just because US is a capitalist country doesn't mean you can't have a socialist solution for healthcare. Not everything has to be profit oriented.

The care system itself -- practitioners, facilities, equipment, etc. -- is mostly fine.

I disagree with this. Hospitals are charging outrageous prices that are so wildy different from even hospitals in the same city that it's out of control. They then negotiate preferential pricing with health insurance providers that are (at least I believe) willing to play ball with them. A hospital charge is often the biggest health care bill a person in need of care receives, but good luck getting any real transparency on what they paid for.

Practitioners are wined and dined and given incentives by pharmaceutical companies to navigate their patients to the drugs made by those companies. Even when they don't need them.

Our health care system is broken at every level. That absolutely includes practitioners and facilities.

This is all about pricing and billing.

Yes, and it's broken. If you want to start discussing quality of care, then it's still broken.

Generally, the U.S. performs worse in long-term health outcomes measures (such as life expectancy), certain treatment outcomes (such as maternal mortality and congestive heart failure hospital admissions), some patient safety measures (such as obstetric trauma with instrument and medication or treatment errors), and patient experiences of not getting care due to cost. The U.S. performs similarly to or better than peer nations in some other measures of treatment outcomes (such as mortality rates within 30 days of acute hospital treatment) and patient safety (such as rates of post-operative sepsis).

Across a wide variety of measures of quality, the U.S. health system appears to perform worse than peer nations on more indicators than it does better. However, inconsistent and imperfect metrics make it difficult to firmly assess system-wide health quality. Some measures of quality – particularly long-term measures like life expectancy – are not only reflective of the health system itself, but also of differences in socioeconomic conditions and other differences between countries that are largely outside of the domain of the health system.

The amount of money the health care industry rakes in should result in better health care overall. It does not. We have the most expensive health care in the world and we STILL rank lower than many countries with subsidized health care.

[Max Peck]

The amount of money the health care industry rakes in should result in better health care overall. It does not. We have the most expensive health care in the world and we STILL rank lower than many countries with subsidized health care.

"Mangione agrees with you," he said, in an attempt to move the discussion back on topic.

[Max Peck]

It seems more likely something else was going on. Like there's a tool or technology the police were using that we aren't aware of. Like this.

Stingray and the like is old news and I'm not sure it'd be of a lot of use in this particular case. Something like real-time facial recognition would be more likely to be of service, although I don't know if it's actually out in the field in the USA just yet.

[LordMortis]

Oni masks to conceal your face shape are the way to go.

I was thinking Tengu

[Victoria Raverna]

Maybe he was right:

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... r-progress

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

[hepcat]

Everybody go ahead and shoot people you think are harmful to society, I guess. VR will support you.

[Pyperkub]

Everybody go ahead and shoot people you think are harmful to society, I guess. VR will support you.

See Zimmerman and Rittenhouse. (this isn't a VR issue)

[Victoria Raverna]

Everybody go ahead and shoot people you think are harmful to society, I guess. VR will support you.

You're choosing the wrong solution.

Make peaceful revolution possible then there is no need of violent revolution.

[hepcat]

I’m not the one who has expressed support for the murder of Brian Thompson.

[hepcat]

See Zimmerman and Rittenhouse. (this isn't a VR issue)

See above reply

[Victoria Raverna]

I’m not the one who has expressed support for the murder of Brian Thompson.

Do you think JFK would support the murder of Brian Thompson? Why you interpreted his words negatively when his words were just warning to other leaders about the possible outcome of oppression.

[hepcat]

Because of your previously expressed support for the shooting, I interpreted your reply and link as further support of violence in the face of what you consider oppression…especially in light of the quote you chose to end it with. If you’re now saying that you don’t support shooting CEOs of health insurance companies, I retract my reply.

[Pyperkub]

See Zimmerman and Rittenhouse. (this isn't a VR issue)

See above reply

TBH, I'm ambivalent about the shooting. I work at a Public University, and have had to deal with the RW amplification of the 2nd Amendment consequences for over 20 years, what with Active Shooter trainings, posters, campus lockdowns, etc.

As you can see if you roll back, on that very same day there was a school shooting where 5 and 6 year olds were shot and I posted about it. I'm more interested in preventing more school shootings than vampire health care exec shootings as of now.

Those kindergartners are recovering at least. Their names are Roman Mendez, 6, and Elias Wolford, 5.

[Victoria Raverna]

If citizens can't do something with their guns to fight injustice, then what is the need of 2nd amendment. Why Americans need to live with school shootings because gun rights when you can't use those guns to fight back against injustice?

[hepcat]

So we should arm teachers?

[Pyperkub]

So we should arm teachers?

No, you're being silly that the guns aren't the problem. Teachers are teachers, not armed guards.

I mean seriously, do you remember any of your HS teachers? Could you say with 100% certainty that you'd trust them to ALWAYS, with zero mistakes ever, practice gun safety and never lose their gun or leave it somewhere a kid would get access to it? And then, be 100% certain that if there was a school shooter incident, that every single teacher would 100% of the time be able to keep their classroom of kids safe (the first priority), and then, if they actually saw someone running down the halls in an active shooter situation be able to make a 100% certain judgement whether that person has a gun, was in fact the active shooter, and be able to take them down while also maintaining 100% safety of their students in their classroom, and not just shoot a random, unarmed student possibly running away from a shooter?

All for pitiful pay.

Hell, many of my HS teachers could barely keep track of their reading glasses.

[Blackhawk]

If citizens can't do something with their guns to fight injustice, then what is the need of 2nd amendment.

Beats the hell out of me (and a significant portion of the country.) Go look around OO - we've discussed the 2nd many, many times, and you won't find many of it's supporters here.

Here's the thing: Leave this particular shooting aside, and look at what your position represents. What happens when those who've lost court cases suddenly feel justified in shooting their opponent or the judge if they feel the verdict was unjust? The not-victims of criminal acts where the suspect was found not guilty? Boss who fired you for 'unjust' reasons? Head of a company that you had a bad business experience with, but is too powerful for the courts to address? Those who believe doctors who vaccinate children are actively hurting them? Those who think illegal aliens are ignored criminals, and that anyone with brown skin is an illegal alien? Every politician who has opponents, from mayor to President? What happens when Republicans scattered across the country decide that, between the stolen election and investigations, individual Democrats dealt them injustice?

If we declare that injustice that the courts can't resolve is justification for murder today, then tomorrow will be a blood bath.

[Victoria Raverna]

Apparently UH group is even worse than what I thought, not only making profit from denying care to patients but also make profit by denying and slowing payment to care providers then also make profit by lending money to those care providers that need loan because of that. Then eventually bought those care providers if they can't pay their loans.

[hepcat]

So we should arm teachers?

No, you're being silly that the guns aren't the problem. Teachers are teachers, not armed guards.

I was responding to VR’s comment that we should use our 2nd amendment rights to solve the issue of school shootings, I absolutely do not think we should arm teachers.

Apparently UH group is even worse than what I thought, not only making profit from denying care to patients but also make profit by denying and slowing payment to care providers then also make profit by lending money to those care providers that need loan because of that. Then eventually bought those care providers if they can't pay their loans.

Yes, they are part of a broken health care system in the U.S.. We’ve all been saying that. But we've got to fix the system via the courts, our representation and other legal venues. Killing the people who work legally within a system doesn't fix the system. It may draw attention to the problem, but that attention is usually focused on even more violence in a misguided belief that THAT is the solution. Meaningful change in this country comes from the people working together to effect change, not vigilantes murdering the heads of corporations they think are harming them.

Indonesia has a history of violent political change so your belief that violence is the best solution for change may just be drawn from that shared experience though. A broken health care system isn't analogous to a dictatorship where you can assassinate a tyrant and a solution is suddenly within reach (I simplify, I know, but you get the point). Brian Thompson didn't make the rules/keeps this broken system alive. There is no one person in that role. So if you think killing is the solution, you're not going to be able to stop killing until everyone involved in that system is dead. And even then, you'll be left with a different kind of broken. Not a fixed system.

[Victoria Raverna]

Actually Indonesia never had an assassination of a tyrant or non tyrant leader.

Maybe there is a good thing that can come from this killing.

First step? Maybe there'll be enough support to start break up companies like United Health Group:

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/5 ... harmacies/

A bipartisan group of lawmakers introduced legislation that would force the breakup of pharmacy benefit managers (PBMs), the drug industry middlemen that have come under increasing scrutiny by lawmakers and regulators.

A Senate bill led by Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) would prohibit a parent company of an insurer or PBM from also owning pharmacies, forcing companies to divest their pharmacy businesses within three years.

It’s a practice the lawmakers called “a gross conflict of interest that enables these companies to enrich themselves at the expense of patients and independent pharmacies.”

A companion bill in the House is led by Reps. Diana Harshbarger (R-Tenn.) and Jake Auchincloss (D-Mass.)

PBMs are on the hot seat, as lawmakers and regulators dig into what they say are the perverse incentives within the industry that drive up drug prices.

“PBMs have manipulated the market to enrich themselves — hiking up drug costs, cheating employers, and driving small pharmacies out of business,” Warren said in a statement.

PBMs negotiate the terms and conditions for access to prescription drugs for hundreds of millions of Americans. They are responsible for negotiating prices with drug companies, paying pharmacies and creating formularies that determine which drugs patients can access and how much they cost.

As the industry has grown more consolidated, critics say PBMs have exerted greater control over patients’ access to medicine. PBMs are vertically integrated, serving as health plans and pharmacists.

The three biggest PBMs—CVS Health’s Caremark, Cigna’s Express Scripts and UnitedHealthGroup’s OptumRx—are owned by insurance companies, which in turn also own specialty, mail order or retail pharmacies.

PBMs and brand drug manufacturers negotiate rebates — volume-based discounts for plans and pharmacies — which the PBM then passes on to employers. The industry argues they help keep costs contained and insurance premiums low.

But a Federal Trade Commission investigation found PBMs also impose restrictions that limit access to less expensive drugs and inflate the cost of cancer drugs. A report by House Republicans had similar findings, and also explored how PBMs charge patients more to use their local pharmacy as a way to steer patients to the PBM-affiliated ones.

“The insurance monopolies are ruining American health care. Patients and independent pharmacies are paying the price. This legislation will stop the insurance companies and PBMs from gobbling up even more of American health care and charging American families more and more for less,” Hawley said in a statement.

It’s likely too late in the year for the bill to advance, but the bipartisan effort shows lawmakers are trying to lay the groundwork for reform next year. President-elect Trump has also indicated he backs efforts to crack down on PBM business practices.

There are efforts to include a provision in the year-end spending bill that would change how PBMs are paid in order to eliminate an incentive to drive patients to the highest-cost drugs.

Last summer, Harshbarger and Auchincloss teamed up for a bill targeting PBMs attempts to steer patients to their preferred pharmacies.

But Wednesday’s legislation, if passed, would represent the most significant attempt yet to regulate the industry.

[hepcat]

Actually Indonesia never had an assassination of a tyrant or non tyrant leader.

But it does have a history of violent political strife. That's my point. You may be more willing to accept violence as a solution because of that history is all I'm saying.

Maybe there is a good thing that can come from this killing.

First step? Maybe there'll be enough support to start break up companies like United Health Group:

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/5 ... harmacies/

They've introduced such bills in the past, as that article points out. This isn't new. Also, this targets the pharmaceutical industry, not health care insurance. This is coincidental, not reactionary.

[Victoria Raverna]

But maybe this time, there'll be enough support to pass.

[hepcat]

If you want to find a silver lining in a murder, knock yourself out. I'm just pointing out that this is unrelated and legislation to control big pharma has been on the table far more than once. Timing would be the only thing that supports your assertion that it's related.

[Zarathud]

Americans have guns under the Second Amendment to defend ourselves from foreign invaders, not to kill each other. Those who fantasize about creating political change by violence are dangers to civil society.

Funny how some people call for the deaths of CEOS in peace but insist action must be taken to stop death during a war.

I hate that UHC makes my family pre authorize insulin for my child’s lifelong type 1 diabetes, but they don’t deserve to die. They deserve to get put out of business.

[hepcat]

Americans have guns under the Second Amendment to defend ourselves from the deep state.

FTFY

[Pyperkub]

So we should arm teachers?

No, you're being silly that the guns aren't the problem. Teachers are teachers, not armed guards.

I was responding to VR’s comment that we should use our 2nd amendment rights to solve the issue of school shootings, I absolutely do not think we should arm teachers.

Yeah, I keep missing that - you two have your own discussion going in this thread and I keep missing it w/o direct quotes. :shrug:

[gbasden]

Brian Thompson didn't make the rules/keeps this broken system alive. There is no one person in that role. So if you think killing is the solution, you're not going to be able to stop killing until everyone involved in that system is dead. And even then, you'll be left with a different kind of broken. Not a fixed system.

I mean, to a certain extent that's absolutely not true. From many of the things I've read Thompson was fully onboard with the corporate culture of denying care to maximize profits. It's not like he was powerless.

I'm not disagreeing that the solution should absolutely come from policy, but you seem to be implying that these leaders are helpless cogs.

[hepcat]

So you believe UHC is the only player in the current health care system? And that Brian Thompson was the only person in UHC and any other business in health care taking advantage of the legally available tools to maximize profits that a broken health care system provides?

What about venture capitalists who break up companies and lay off thousands who then can't afford to feed their families? Should they be shot too? I'd argue they're doing just as much damage.

We're all cogs. It's the potential for damage that is the only difference in many cases.