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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Apparently Joseph is a mason is not something they made up.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... allurgist/
The Greek word that is translated as carpenter in both Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 is tekton. It is important to note that the 1611 KJV Bible and all of our modern Bible translated tekton as carpenter. Yet, many Christians claim that Joseph and Jesus were masons or metallurgists. Lets examine the evidence.

Evidence From Biblical Greek Scholars
Verlyn D. Verbrugge explains that tekton could refer to a carpenter, stone mason or metallurgist in classical Greek as well as in the Old and New Testaments. Here are two quotes that introduce the meaning of this word.

In cl. Greek tekton means a craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal.
Though carpenter is the common rendering here, tekton can also mean mason . . .1
J. I. Packer also states that tekton means ” craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal.”2

But Louw and Nida state that the meaning of the word tekton is simpler,

There is every reason to believe that in biblical times one who was regarded as a tekton would be skilled in the use of wood and stone and possibly even metal.3

Danker and Bauer make the point that tekton usually or primarily referred to a woodworker. Stone mason or metal worker was not the primary meaning.

“. . . one who constructs, builder or carpenter” and “one who works with wood, in contrast to a worker in bronze.”4

Balz and Schneider cite many references that indicate the most common meaning of the Greek word tekton in the time of Christ was a carpenter. They state,

Τέκτων refers to “one who makes, produces” (Latin faber), esp. when referring to woodworking (cf. Homer Il. 6.315; Plato R x.597d; Josephus Ant. xv.390; τέκτων ξύλων και τέκτων λίθων, 2 Kgdms 5:11; cf. 1 Christian 22:15; τέκτων και ἀρχιτέκτων, Sir 38:27)5

Moulton and Milligan, referring to tekton, agree with this comment,

The ordinary limitation of this word to “a worker in wood,” “a carpenter,” as in Mat 13:55, Mk 6:3, is supported by P Fay 110 (A.D. 94).6

Then the authors continue to provide numerous references from the papyri to support this conclusion.

Their conclusion is also supported by the early church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165). He gives strong reason to believe that Joseph and Jesus were carpenters.

And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes . . .)7

Justin Martyr, who lived very close to the time of Christ, understood that Jesus was a carpenter.

Conclusion:
If Justin Martyr is correct, then Joseph and Jesus were primarily carpenters and as Lou and Nida have stated they probably also worked with masonry and metal in order to make items of wood. Many modern woodworkers also have secondary skills in masonry and metal since items constructed primarily of wood often have parts made of metal or stone or must be secured to something else with metal or stone.

Whatever skills Joseph and Jesus had they were hard working men. They were laborers and not men of the aristocracy. Most likely their primary skill was that of a carpenter as evidenced by the historical data above. John Nolland in his commentary on Matthew provides the best conclusion,

A carpenter (τέκτων) was typically a woodworking craftsman who built furniture and utensils, doors, and door frames, and prepared roofing beams; he may at times have doubled as a brick mason.8
So maybe the people who make that show is Christians that think tekton = mason instead of carpenter.

But still using bible as the only source of "historical facts" is questionable. It is like if we're using a biography of Trump written by his MAGA followers as source of facts about Trump.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Max Peck wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 pm
Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:29 pm
Max Peck wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:25 pm
Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:14 pm Yes, they do. They've given him the job of mason rather than carpenter in the movie. I wish I was kidding. A change for the sake of a change.
Just to be clear, are you saying that they made him a stoneworker rather than a woodworker (i.e. a mason, but at least an occupation that existed at the time) or did they make him a member of a Freemason fraternal organization (i.e. a Mason, a member of an organization that wouldn't exist for more than another millenium)? One of those is a much larger and more bizarre change to the traditional story than the other. :lol:
Heh, you know, I went back and looked at the comment, and I realized what you meant about the stray M. Good catch! :lol: Yes they made him a regular stone worker, although the word mason was thrown about in professions such as these. It still doesn't make it very accurate.
Not so much a catch as a result of how my sense of humor is wired. :wink:
Still a good catch, given that I didn't realize leaving the M as capital would cause such a ruckus :D
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 pm Apparently Joseph is a mason is not something they made up.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... allurgist/

...

So maybe the people who make that show is Christians that think tekton = mason instead of carpenter.

But still using bible as the only source of "historical facts" is questionable. It is like if we're using a biography of Trump written by his MAGA followers as source of facts about Trump.
Interesting. Most people never bother to learn the actual languages originally used to write the scriptures, so they generally go by the good old King James edition (which I'm going to assume says carpenter).

As for using just the Bible, there really isn't much alternative. So far as I know, most of the people involved, aside from Herod, simply weren't important enough at the time to be documented in anything that has survived for the last two millenia and counting. If it wasn't for the Bible, there'd be no story to tell.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?
How do you think she got up to the clouds for that immaculate conception action?
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 pm Apparently Joseph is a mason is not something they made up.





So maybe the people who make that show is Christians that think tekton = mason instead of carpenter.

But still using bible as the only source of "historical facts" is questionable. It is like if we're using a biography of Trump written by his MAGA followers as source of facts about Trump.
I think you're way overthinking it. But the interesting thing about the language is that there might be an erosion at play. What word they used for it back then, we'll never know for sure. But Joseph as a carpenter has always been referenced this way, and that's the way it's been told for millenia. To then say he was a mason and not a carpenter is erroneous.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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In all seriousness, I try to get my history from PBS and books. If it’s on Netflix or has the name Ridley Scott attached to it, I tend to discount it as factual in anything but the most superficial of aspects.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?
Wait, are you saying that all Israeli actresses look alike to you?

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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Oh man, I’m looking forward to the Christmas joke swap on SNL between Che and Jost. That’s probably the only time I really watch. :wub:

… but yes, I am.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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To be fair, I can think of a lot of worse things to say about a woman than "She looks just like Gal Gadot."
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Apparently “She looks like Jim Rockford” isn’t one of them.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:48 pm In all seriousness, I try to get my history from PBS and books. If it’s on Netflix or has the name Ridley Scott attached to it, I tend to discount it as factual in anything but the most superficial of aspects.
Which is kind of a problem, because if you're claiming to be a biblical epic origin story, it comes with a certain set of expectations. You certainly don't expect Lucifer to pop up in the story looking like a Marvel Villain, which is exactly what happened in this movie.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Well crap, now I WANT to see it. :think:
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An origin story where Anthony Hopkins earns a paycheck, Mary is a hottie, Joseph is a stoner and Marvel's Lucifer makes a surprise cameo does sound like a good time. I can't wait until it gets the MST3K/RiffTrax treatment.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Gaaahh, it’s like you two are the marketing team for the show. Fine, I’ll watch it.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Jaymann wrote:
hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?
How do you think she got up to the clouds for that immaculate conception action?
Religious dogma correction time!

The "immaculate conception" does not refer to Mary becoming pregnant with Jesus without having sex. That is the belief of the"virgin birth."

The "immaculate conception" refers to Mary being conceived and born without the burden of Original Sin, making her a pure vessel to bear the son of God.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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How did she avoid the burden of the Original Sin?
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By not playing it? Although she may have played Original Sin II. A lot of folks prefer that one.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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disarm wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:30 pm
Jaymann wrote:
hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?
How do you think she got up to the clouds for that immaculate conception action?
Religious dogma correction time!

The "immaculate conception" does not refer to Mary becoming pregnant with Jesus without having sex. That is the belief of the"virgin birth."

The "immaculate conception" refers to Mary being conceived and born without the burden of Original Sin, making her a pure vessel to bear the son of God.
That was how she got the lasso of truth!
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Max Peck wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:11 pm An origin story where Anthony Hopkins earns a paycheck, Mary is a hottie, Joseph is a stoner and Marvel's Lucifer makes a surprise cameo does sound like a good time. I can't wait until it gets the MST3K/RiffTrax treatment.
lol Joseph a Stoner, literally! :lol:
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 7:42 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 11:43 am
Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:39 pm I just find it strange to insist on historical accuracy when it is more of a legend than a history.
Look at Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. It's fiction, and it's become legend. If you were making a film of it, wouldn't there be value in making the elements around that central story historically accurate?
Why? If we can have a movie about Abraham Lincoln hunting vampires and have no problem with it, why Julius Caesar's story has to be "historically accurate" by following Shakespeare's version?
For the same reason that nobody complained about the historical/canonical inaccuracies of The Life of Brian, but there are numerous critiques of the history in Braveheart.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Victoria Raverna wrote:How did she avoid the burden of the Original Sin?
That's a fair question without a good answer...

The idea originated as far back as the 11th century when people decided they should have a feast day to celebrate Mary's conception, but lustful sex was bad and not something that should be celebrated so they decided that Mary's conception had to have been something special...a pure act of reproduction between her parents, without lust, that produced a child that was born free from sin. There was no scriptural or biblical evidence for this and it was debated (and fought over) for centuries. Some people thought it made sense for Mary to be pure from birth, while others said that would contradict Jesus' redemption for all because a woman without sin would not need his salvation. Popularity and acceptance of the Immaculate Conception waxed and waned for hundreds of years until it was made official dogma of the Catholic church by Pope Pius IX in 1854. Why? Because a bunch of old men said so.
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disarm wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:22 am Because a bunch of old men said so.
If I understand that correctly, immaculate conception means Mary's parents copulated without enjoying it. Plausible, but hardly unique.
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So I guess my daughter which was result of IVF program and everyone like her are also counted as immaculate conception. Glad to know she isn't going to be burdened by the Original Sin.
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So given the virgin birth, that means Jesus only had Mary's DNA. A real mama's boy?
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Kraken wrote:
disarm wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:22 am Because a bunch of old men said so.
If I understand that correctly, immaculate conception means Mary's parents copulated without enjoying it. Plausible, but hardly unique.
Pretty much. Although some pushed the idea of Mary being a virgin birth as well, that was never accepted as canon in the church because then Jesus wouldn't be so special.

Ever get the feeling that these religions are just making stuff up to fit their own outlook on the world? ;-)
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That is exactly why I'm a Pastafarian.
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All hail The Great Linguini!
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I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
Did they address the issue of Mary having a baby without Joseph doing the horizontal bop?
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
Thanks for taking one for the team, Max. Sounds like they could be possibly planning a sequel :D
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Jaymann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:28 am
Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
Did they address the issue of Mary having a baby without Joseph doing the horizontal bop?
Angels and holy spirit. Same for Mary's mom, from what I could tell.
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Rumpy wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:48 am
Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
Thanks for taking one for the team, Max. Sounds like they could be possibly planning a sequel :D
Anna, the old lady that lived in the temple, was giving off some strong Bene Gesserit vibes, so maybe they already have made the sequel. :whistle:
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:51 am
Jaymann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:28 am
Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
Did they address the issue of Mary having a baby without Joseph doing the horizontal bop?
Angels and holy spirit. Same for Mary's mom, from what I could tell.
So Joseph didn't suspect the camel salesman?
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:55 am
Rumpy wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:48 am
Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.
Thanks for taking one for the team, Max. Sounds like they could be possibly planning a sequel :D
Anna, the old lady that lived in the temple, was giving off some strong Bene Gesserit vibes, so maybe they already have made the sequel. :whistle:
Haha, yeah she kind of did for me too, and is it just me or was the costuming a little odd for the time period?
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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So Mary was a case of human parthenogenesis?
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

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Did someone say parthenogenesis!
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Jaymann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 1:52 am So Joseph didn't suspect the camel salesman?
He did, but Marvel's Gabriel (if Lucifer is a "Marvel villain" then clearly Gabriel a Marvel hero, they're like peas in a pod) set him straight.
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

Post by hepcat »

I like the ending where Joseph is down at the police precinct going over everything with Lucifer. Then Lucifer leaves and Joseph looks around...only realize that Lucifer made up everything from stuff around his office and HE was Keyser Soze!
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Isgrimnur
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Re: News about Netflix exclusive films and content

Post by Isgrimnur »

16 hours from recommendation to spoilers?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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