Canada 2015-25 and Beyond: New Hope or Phantom Menace?

[GreenGoo]

I despise Tom Green. At least I used to. Is he still alive?

[Rumpy]

Yeah, he is, though he's much mellowed out and now living a farm life back in Canada. Like you, I despised his earlier crude attempt at humour, but he seems to be very different now.

[IceBear]

Today he harped on our lack of spending on defense again as to why we should be 51st State. All I know is, that since he essentially told Europe to take care of themselves, I hope our next government will spend on the military to protect ourselves. Heck, if we bought missile launchers and other US military supplies, we'd also tap down that trade deficit he's always on about.

[IceBear]

Well, that's new. This is with respect to the reciprocal tariffs

Trump sees Canada's general sales tax as a tariff, two senior Canadian government sources told Radio-Canada. The president raised the issue during one of his calls with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Feb. 3, to which Trudeau said there are several American states, including Florida, with sales taxes of their own.

Trump's issue is that Canada has a federal sales tax and the U.S. does not, a third source said.

[YellowKing]

to which Trudeau said there are several American states, including Florida, with sales taxes of their own.

Not just several. There are only 5 states that do not have a sales tax.

[GreenGoo]

Many people, smart people, have agreed with me that Federal and State sales taxes are different. One is a tariff, the other is helping me keep inflation up. I mean down. I mean they are bigly good.

[Holman]

Trump apparently floated the idea today that every country in the world with a VAT (which is the vast majority of them) is effectively levying a tariff.

Leaving aside that this is not how things actually work, what the hell does he think he is doing? Most probably, he's poking at taxes and tariffs towards the goal of eliminating the USA's income tax and replacing it with something much more regressive like a national consumption tax.

In other words: Canada, the target isn't you; it's us.

[stessier]

How is a consumption tax not a federal sales tax?

[Blackhawk]

...the goal of eliminating the USA's income tax and replacing it with something much more regressive like a national consumption tax.

That would be a hard blow for the disabled and many retired people - people who typically don't pay income taxes. We'd get all of the extra costs, but none of the extra income.

[Rumpy]

It's kind of interesting that he'd say that, given that Canada has always paid more in taxes for pretty much everything.

[Holman]

...the goal of eliminating the USA's income tax and replacing it with something much more regressive like a national consumption tax.

That would be a hard blow for the disabled and many retired people - people who typically don't pay income taxes. We'd get all of the extra costs, but none of the extra income.

Yep.

But won't you think of the m/b/trillionaires? What about *their* suffering?

[GreenGoo]

That would be a hard blow for the disabled and many retired people - people who typically don't pay income taxes. We'd get all of the extra costs, but none of the extra income.

Yes. That's a well known consequence. Working as expected.

[Max Peck]

A federal sales tax is obviously not the same as a tariff, given that it applies equally to domestically produced and imported goods. But I suppose you'd need to understand what tariffs are in order to understand that distinction, so it explains why Trump is confused by the issue.

[Rumpy]

Yep, economics 101. Meanwhile, it's like he's trying to re-invent economics to his level of understanding, which ain't much. Square peg, round hole. He can keep trying as much as he wants, but it will never work, and make a mess of things in the end.

[GreenGoo]

Meanwhile, it's like he's trying to re-invent economics to his level of understanding, which ain't much.

Lol. YES! That's exactly what's he's doing. He's "fixing" the economy, but doesn't understand what the economy is. I've seen this a thousand times in IT.

Hilarious and apt.

[IceBear]

WASHINGTON — Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Andrew Furey says it was “chilling” to hear a top White House adviser say U.S. President Donald Trump is serious about making Canada the 51st state.

All 13 premiers travelled to Washington this week for the first time in history for a joint mission to push back on Trump’s escalating tariff threats.

Speaking to CPAC Friday, Furey says he left the U.S. capital very aware that the president was launching an attack not just on Canada’s economy but on its sovereignty.

He says it’s time to revaluate the Team Canada strategy to ensure a firm response that draws a line in the sand.

The diplomatic push comes during a month-long pause on Trump’s threat to hit Canada and Mexico with 25 per cent across-the-board duties, with a lower 10 per cent levy on Canadian energy.

The president last week signed executive orders to impose 25 per cent tariffs on all steel and aluminum imports into the United States, including Canadian products, starting March 12.

I think when he said that his voters would never need to vote again he meant it, and if so having Canada won't mess up future elections like people theorize as a reason why he isn't serious.

And they just found a pound of fentanyl in Seattle that came from Vancouver so there's that

[GreenGoo]

And they just found a pound of fentanyl in Seattle that came from Vancouver so there's that

They could find a thousand tons of injectable maple syrup and it would be just a meaningless. I know you've been watching, so haven't you noticed that the target is constantly moving?

He doesn't need justification for his bullcrap statements and will use the flimsiest of reasons that even a child can see through to attack.

It's NEVER about the rationale. So just let it go when some vaguely supportive piece of "evidence" is produced that lines up with his purported reasonings.

He's moved the goal posts several times since he's targeted Canada and you started noticing. So do your best to let go of the goal posts completely.

He's been doing this with his businesses for 50 years in order to get concessions from people. It's tired and it's old, and rational, serious people keep falling for it. It's maddening.

[Alefroth]

They could find a thousand tons of injectable maple syrup

Can you hook a brother up?

[GreenGoo]

They could find a thousand tons of injectable maple syrup

Can you hook a brother up?

Maybe.

[Holman]

I'm still convinced that all this 51st state talk is just bluster and distraction.

It's inconceivable that Trump could just order the military to invade Canada and take it. Trump is an unhinged narcissist, but we are not a culture of blind obedience. Generals, officers at all levels, and soldiers would resign or refuse in large numbers. The military would grind to a halt.

As bad as we are, there is no sense in which the volunteer US military would adopt an "obey the dictator or die" stance. Most soldiers etc are there to get money for college, and killing yesterday's allies for the POTUS's ambitions was never part of the deal.

[YellowKing]

Generals, officers at all levels, and soldiers would resign or refuse in large numbers. The military would grind to a halt.

This. I have a friend at a fairly high level in the military and he tells me this all the time. Most military brass hate Trump with a passion.

[Rumpy]

I'm still convinced that all this 51st state talk is just bluster and distraction.

It definitely is bluster. And should Trump even try anything, he'd be breaking a number of international laws and treaties and putting the U.S in an awkward situation.

[IceBear]

He doesn't care about laws. He's appealing all the court pushback on his EOs right now because he knows that he has stacked the Supreme Court in his favor. If they ever rule against him he'll drop all the pretense and just do whatever he wants.

[Blackhawk]

He doesn't care about laws, but those around him who control the money care about paying for a war while the US economy collapses and the rest of the world sanctions us and cuts us off. Those people would never allow Trump to actually follow through with this. He'd have a window-based slip-and-fall first.

[Holman]

And if you want to talk about DEI, someone pointed out recently that the US Army approached this year's recruiting goals only because of black women. And white male volunteers were rejected at higher rates than other categories because they couldn't pass the fitness tests.

[Kraken]

Generals, officers at all levels, and soldiers would resign or refuse in large numbers. The military would grind to a halt.

This. I have a friend at a fairly high level in the military and he tells me this all the time. Most military brass hate Trump with a passion.

The brass, yes. The rank and file, not so much. I wonder how many layers of rank he'd have to fire to take direct control.

[Rumpy]

He doesn't care about laws. He's appealing all the court pushback on his EOs right now because he knows that he has stacked the Supreme Court in his favor.

His laws. Not ours. Nothing he can do about laws that aren't from his Country.

[Max Peck]

He doesn't care about laws. He's appealing all the court pushback on his EOs right now because he knows that he has stacked the Supreme Court in his favor.

His laws. Not ours. Nothing he can do about laws that aren't from his Country.

Aside from ignore them? Laws are just words on paper if there's no way to enforce them.

[Rumpy]

He doesn't care about laws. He's appealing all the court pushback on his EOs right now because he knows that he has stacked the Supreme Court in his favor.

His laws. Not ours. Nothing he can do about laws that aren't from his Country.

Aside from ignore them? Laws are just words on paper if there's no way to enforce them.

Maybe from a Country which he presides over, but we're talking an international (to him) Country with its own set of laws, treaties and allies. To ignore them would be at his own peril, and his alone.

[IceBear]

But he's already doing it. Listen to what Vance told the EU yesterday. Look at the deathly quiet from Canada's allies and the Commonwealth. Everyone has their heads down hoping to stay in Trump's good graces so they don't get the treatment we're getting. Just think about another country threatening to annex another country and the world wide condemnation that would follow vs what we're seeing here. When he called Trudeau governor in the past he was just president elect, but now he's saying it as the President of the United States...that should normally be condemned by the world, but for the most part its crickets. That's just going to embolden him.

[LordMortis]

I don't think (and I hope) the Europe isn't simply keeping their head down but rather they are working de-USAing themselves. I hate that would need to and that it will suck for me, personally. But this boat ain't steady and life jackets to get you to safety are still a thing. After all; risk mitigation, system hardening, and resiliency have been government and corporate central initiatives since 2020. Or at least they still were when I left the workforce in 2023.

[Blackhawk]

The USA is deeply intertwined in the world. I think that a lot of the 'heads down' and silence is the world trying to figure out how to untangle themselves from us, to shield themselves from us, to isolate us. They're not ignoring Trump - they're working on plans to neutralize his influence and power outside of our borders.

If Trump actually crossed certain lines, the world would respond - especially in the case of NATO members.

[Rumpy]

The USA is deeply intertwined in the world. I think that a lot of the 'heads down' and silence is the world trying to figure out how to untangle themselves from us, to shield themselves from us, to isolate us. They're not ignoring Trump - they're working on plans to neutralize his influence and power outside of our borders.

If Trump actually crossed certain lines, the world would respond - especially in the case of NATO members.

Exactly, if they have their head down, it's not that they're ignoring him, but rather trying to figure out what the next step is, ie an action plan. Don't mistake their current silence for inaction. They've made plenty of noise backing Canada while harshly criticizing Trump's actions. This is why we have international laws. And supposedly Trump already violated laws by threatening Canada in the first place. You can be sure they would be watching Trump with a very critical eye in everything he is saying and doing. Doing things to his own Country is one thing... Doing it on a world stage is another.

--

Slightly different topic, but something I've had on my chest for awhile. The corridor via Highway 17 between Sudbury and Ottawa has few amenities. It's not like the 401 via Toronto where you can find Onroutes about every 100 km. On this route, we only have one big truck stop/restaurant along this route that can accommodate a large number of trucks, and it's a locally owned business that has fared quite well, enough that they had outgrown their original building to build a bigger establishment.

And now we get to the meat of the issue. Of course, during Covid, we had the trucker convoy on its way to Ottawa. With this place being the only thing that could accommodate the convoy, it would have been stupid to deny them service. It's not like they had a choice, and I don't think making it available to the convoy meant they were taking a political stance or supporting them in an way. For a business like this and the only one like it available for much of the route, it's purely logistics. But of course, there are a number of locals who are now boycotting this place because they think being open for the truckers meant they were supporting them, even now during the whole "Buy Canadian" movement, despite this being a wholly independently owned place, not a chain, using locally sourced ingredients including baking everything themselves and using eggs from their own farm. Sometimes I feel boycott movements take things a little too far and people can't see the full picture and only end up hurting the local economy.

[waitingtoconnect]

Meanwhile, it's like he's trying to re-invent economics to his level of understanding, which ain't much.

Lol. YES! That's exactly what's he's doing. He's "fixing" the economy, but doesn't understand what the economy is. I've seen this a thousand times in IT.

Hilarious and apt.

IT can’t put out fires or run a domestic women’s violence shelter…

[waitingtoconnect]

The USA is deeply intertwined in the world. I think that a lot of the 'heads down' and silence is the world trying to figure out how to untangle themselves from us, to shield themselves from us, to isolate us. They're not ignoring Trump - they're working on plans to neutralize his influence and power outside of our borders.

If Trump actually crossed certain lines, the world would respond - especially in the case of NATO members.

Sometimes I feel boycott movements take things a little too far and people can't see the full picture and only end up hurting the local economy.

Such a gross betrayal that Trump is making to Canada now is rare in history but bad enough. Attacking an ally militarily with no provocation at all, I cannot think of any historical situation where it has happened. (Plenty of examples of innocent countries being assaulted of course.)

Canada would be on its own in a military sense because of geography. Realistically it would have massive sympathy and support but any help would come from over the ocean and by air and aside from basic supplies that wouldn’t get past the us navy.

Assuming trump did this. Such an action would cause massive unrest in America. Less than 2% want to use military force to take Canada. P Troops could well desert and disobey. Stock markets would tank, allies would recoil in horror. America would stand alone for the first time since the civil war.

Taking Canadas cities would be easy but holding it is another question.

Assume just 2% of Canadians join an armed insurgency. That’s a million people. The guns exist in Canada to make that happen. Canadians are among the most skilled outdoorsman and hunters in the world. And they have all the second biggest country in the world to hide in. Small units of special forces could lead semi skilled civilians in insurgent attacks that would destroy oil pipeline, bridges and power stations all over North America.

And Canadians speak English and know America well. The fight wouldn’t just be north of the border.

Canadians would make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic.

[Punisher]

The USA is deeply intertwined in the world. I think that a lot of the 'heads down' and silence is the world trying to figure out how to untangle themselves from us, to shield themselves from us, to isolate us. They're not ignoring Trump - they're working on plans to neutralize his influence and power outside of our borders.

If Trump actually crossed certain lines, the world would respond - especially in the case of NATO members.

Exactly, if they have their head down, it's not that they're ignoring him, but rather trying to figure out what the next step is, ie an action plan. Don't mistake their current silence for inaction. They've made plenty of noise backing Canada while harshly criticizing Trump's actions. This is why we have international laws. And supposedly Trump already violated laws by threatening Canada in the first place. You can be sure they would be watching Trump with a very critical eye in everything he is saying and doing. Doing things to his own Country is one thing... Doing it on a world stage is another.

If this is true then doesn't this make the point that international laws don't actually matter to him?
Unless I missed it, there are no consequences for this so it's defacto making it legal.
If murder is illegal but nobody ever gets prosecuted for it then having the law in the first place doesn't matter.

[Rumpy]

Such a gross betrayal that Trump is making to Canada now is rare in history but bad enough. Attacking an ally militarily with no provocation at all, I cannot think of any historical situation where it has happened. (Plenty of examples of innocent countries being assaulted of course.)

Yep, exactly. And good to have you on our side

If this is true then doesn't this make the point that international laws don't actually matter to him?

Not necessarily. It might just be a case where it's not enough for our allies to do anything about it. But the minute he does make a move would be the deciding factor. And again, make no mistake that our allies aren't paying attention, as they're very likely strategizing a course of action should something does happen. Because the minute he does something to us, he would no longer be playing in his tennis court, but ours and the world at large.

[LordMortis]

Something less than 2% of the US think we should take Canada by force? The idea that you could find 1 in 100 seem incredulous to me. I mean I underestimated exactly how derp and violently stupid with a nearly total loss of what civil is my nation is. I know this but even then I can not wrap my head around a number that high.

[Blackhawk]

The USA is deeply intertwined in the world. I think that a lot of the 'heads down' and silence is the world trying to figure out how to untangle themselves from us, to shield themselves from us, to isolate us. They're not ignoring Trump - they're working on plans to neutralize his influence and power outside of our borders.

If Trump actually crossed certain lines, the world would respond - especially in the case of NATO members.

Exactly, if they have their head down, it's not that they're ignoring him, but rather trying to figure out what the next step is, ie an action plan. Don't mistake their current silence for inaction. They've made plenty of noise backing Canada while harshly criticizing Trump's actions. This is why we have international laws. And supposedly Trump already violated laws by threatening Canada in the first place. You can be sure they would be watching Trump with a very critical eye in everything he is saying and doing. Doing things to his own Country is one thing... Doing it on a world stage is another.

If this is true then doesn't this make the point that international laws don't actually matter to him?
Unless I missed it, there are no consequences for this so it's defacto making it legal.
If murder is illegal but nobody ever gets prosecuted for it then having the law in the first place doesn't matter.

There are absolutely consequences if it goes beyond bluster. At best, economic sanctions that further isolate the US and cripple our economy by cutting off most foreign trade. At worst, World War 3 if NATO becomes involved on Canada's side against the US.

Both would be so devastating to all of the billionaires clustered around Trump that I can't imagine that he'll be 'allowed' to get past bluster. Before that happens, his one-percenter horde will either stop him quietly, oust him by pushing their influence in Congress, or arrange for him to have a nasty slip-and-fall. They aren't going to let Trump lose them billions.

[GreenGoo]

IT can’t put out fires or run a domestic women’s violence shelter…

Huh? I don't...what's your point?

Edit: If I had phrased it as "I have seen management similarly incompetent in similar ways in IT", would that help?