World of Darkness-Game Over- Kindred Win

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:42 am

And yes, I know I've been acting strangely in the game, but with Grund, I was paranoid, and with Austin, that vote happened while I was out to lunch. That day moved REAL quick; there was nothing I could do about that.

Smutly · Post by **Smutly** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:55 am

If that's your last comment then I'll go ahead and have the last word. I agree to not participate in any further games. I would, however, suggest that you add a rule stating that members of one side are not allowed to try to defect to the other side even if game dynamics allow that situation to occur. Tru1cy should have told me that was not an option when I e-mail him my intent. Sorry to ruin your Black Panther party.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:05 am

Smutly wrote: If that's your last comment then I'll go ahead and have the last word. I agree to not participate in any further games. I would, however, suggest that you add a rule stating that members of one side are not allowed to try to defect to the other side even if game dynamics allow that situation to occur. Tru1cy should have told me that was not an option when I e-mail him my intent. Sorry to ruin your Black Panther party.

Such a rule has never been needed.

So boneheaded.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:47 am

[meta]I think smutly's decision was reasonable, though perhaps not the best. If there is a problem in the rule set then the problem would be having recruitment at all. As it goes, it is part of the game dynamic. I'd give more details but strategizing by a non player to players is bad form.[/meta]

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:53 pm

Can we have this discussion after the game? Seems to be getting disruptive.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:09 pm

While I didn't like Smutly action it wasn't against the rules. I didn't see any reason to come out against it. Next I would request that we save this talk til after the game. Thanks

Cesare · Post by **Cesare** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:21 pm

Krash wrote:In saying that, we could use data from the beginning to try to find the Tremere vampire. I think the Tremere vampire will be either pr0ner or Mr Bubbles - for reasons we should already know. Not only are their actions the most suspicious of all of us, but they are 2 of the remaining suspects on Grund's original suspect matrix (see bottom of post).

Yes, McNutt is listed there also, but he was later cleared as an innocent because of his actions against Newcastle. His actions are somewhat suspicious now, but I think he's just very easily influenced. Now, remember, I'm talking about the Tremere vamp here - whereas McNutt could have been turned on Night 3.

Back to the Tremere vampire though, as you can see I posted a little history of pr0ner and Bubbles above. While both posts can be damaging to each, I have the opinion that pr0ner's history is the most damaging. pr0ner's vote counts were higher in the bandwagons and his actions seemed to mirror Austin's. I'll hold my vote for now, but that is who I would vote for barring any other evidence.

...

Recap:
I would agree to vote for pr0ner or Bubbles.
If pr0ner is innocent: I would say Bubbles and Remus/McNutt would be next.
If pr0ner is guilty: I would look at McNutt next (maybe Cesare)

Or we voted for Bubbles:
If Bubbles is innocent: I would look at McNutt/Cesare
If Bubbles is guilty: I would look at Remus/McNutt

Also note that if we get two lynches wrong, the vampires win, so please think this through. (If I calculated that correctly)

Discuss.

Good analysis and links. I agree that either pr0ner or Bubbles are the most obvious choices right now, and that there's a childer out there that can basically be anyone. Bubbles most recent post strikes me as the most suspicious, it seems like the "oh well they caught me" type of non-defense defense. It could be fatigue, but I know I've had that feeling as a wolf when the village started closing in.

So, I will also agree to vote for pr0ner or Bubbles.. but I'd like to hear from everyone before actually voting if possible, particularly McNutt and Remus. Of course, if one of them is the childer, they could try to push us in the wrong direction..

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:32 pm

I think Krash and Cesare are innocent unless Cesare was turned, which is a possibility I suppose but that may be too obvious of a move to have tried. I'm unsure of everybody else. I'd like to hear from them before figuring out where to lay my vote.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:03 pm

vote for me if you will... have i been careless of course... I don't deny it.. but I will try to save you the trouble. I will admit to bad votes, but thats because I have not been able to keep up and analyze this game as close I would have liked.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:05 pm

I'm tempted to vote for Krash just because he's so wrong about me.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:32 pm

I think pr0ner's the must suspicious right now. As for Bubbles, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't argue for him at this point.

The problem is the person that was turned can't be discovered through old posts. For that we're probably going to have to luck up.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:59 pm

I can guarantee I'm not vampire. Don't waste your vote on me, McNutt.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:01 pm

Kelric wrote:I think Krash and Cesare are innocent unless Cesare was turned, which is a possibility I suppose but that may be too obvious of a move to have tried. I'm unsure of everybody else. I'd like to hear from them before figuring out where to lay my vote.

I, too, was thinking about the possibility of Cesare being the turned vampire. He's been away so much this game, laid so low without any real suspicion, that he might have been turned for that very reason.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:21 pm

pr0ner wrote:I can guarantee I'm not vampire. Don't waste your vote on me, McNutt.

Oh, well that changes everything.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:04 pm

Kelric wrote:I think Krash and Cesare are innocent unless Cesare was turned, which is a possibility I suppose but that may be too obvious of a move to have tried. I'm unsure of everybody else. I'd like to hear from them before figuring out where to lay my vote.

Well, Kelric, you stated earlier that you had 2 suspects in mind, but wanted to hear other's opinions. Feel free to add yours anytime.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:43 pm

pr0ner wrote:I'm tempted to vote for Krash just because he's so wrong about me.

You certainly have the right to vote for me, pr0ner, except I think I'm only saying what the majority of us are thinking - all signs point to you or Bubbles as one of the original vamps. You state we are wrong and you state you can "guarantee" your innocence. I'm not sure how that is possible, but here we are at an impasse and a choice has to be made - and that choice will probably be made for the most suspicious of us, so feel free to make your case with more than a simple "I'm innocent" plea.

I'm willing not to cast my vote until we hear from Remus and maybe some more from Kelric and the others as well. Plus the messageboard seems to be acting up, so some may not be able to check in right now.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:54 am

removed because tru1cy had asked we not talk abouot it until after the game.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:00 am

tru1cy wrote:While I didn't like Smutly action it wasn't against the rules. I didn't see any reason to come out against it. Next I would request that we save this talk til after the game. Thanks

Sorry, I posted before getting to this point. Won't happen again.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:10 am

I think that Krash's thoughts of trying to examine the whole game to find the Scanner are good. I already said that I thought pr0ner's actions against Grund and against Smutly were weird. He came out and drove hard aginst both of them. I admit that I pushed for Genghis, I thought we had them cornered and it was a bad play. pr0ner, on the other hand, did not care which one he voted for, making no arguments against either but voting for both Smutly and Genghis during that time and not Austin. I do not hold the day we lynched Austin against anyone, nor do I credit anyone for being in on the lynch. It was obvious that we would be lynching him as his lie had been revealed. All things considered though I am a bit nervous about putting my vote in the same pile as McNutt but believe that if he is a Vampire and I am the second vote on then they do not have enough to bandwagon. pr0ner has been aggressive towards the powered players trying to assist the village the entire game.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:22 am

Krash - I think he's innocent.
Cesare - Turning him falls into the 'so obvious it couldn't have been done so maybe it was done' category. I think not, however.

Remus - Has generally seemed to be playing as usual and aside from his vocab slip early on, hasn't done much to grab my attention as vampiric.
Mr. Bubbles - He hasn't made me think 'Vampire!' much for some reason, even when his ideas haven't made the most sense to me. More of a feeling that he's innocent than anything else. But both he and Remus are ones I'm not that sure of.

pr0ner - His track record makes me think vampire and he has generally seem to stay low. At least aside from his voting his conversation hasn't seemed to make an impression on me.
McNutt - I haven't really been able to get a read on him all game. I don't like that. It makes me want to stake something.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:48 am

I'll be out pretty much all day today (Sunday), so feel free to finish a vote if you guys want. I don't think there's a huge rush to finish it right now, but it seems most people have spoken.

What bothers me greatly though is that no one seems to show even a hint that pr0ner may be innocent (we know the vampire has a cohort out there), yet the 3 ACTUAL votes cast today were Mr. Bubbles, McNutt and Remus - the last two even after everyone else held back their vote for more discussion.

If I went on instinct alone, my vote would be for Mr. Bubbles and then to Remus or McNutt if Bubbles were guilty.

I'll be back later this evening. If the vote finishes and you find me dead the next morning, this game has been a wild ride indeed. Later.

Cesare · Post by **Cesare** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:13 am

-nods-

I sorta agree. I don't trust pr0ner based on his past actions, but again, the last two pages of Mr. Bubbles posts strike me as the words of a cornered and distraught vamp, especially the completely random and unexplained vote for Remus.

If we hit gridlock I'll be willing to change to change to pr0ner, but for now Mr. Bubbles.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:13 pm

I won't say don't vote for me... because that doesn't really help, but at the sametime I hope that you learn as much from my death as possible. Namely you probably should have picked the other guy.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:14 pm

on that note pr0ner Im pretty much go with the majority now since I won't pretend to know all the dynamics as well as everyone else.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:32 pm

1. lassr - vampire main course
2. remus west - pr0ner
3. mcnutt - pr0ner
4. austin - Vampire
5. cesare - Mr Bubbles
6. mr. bubbles - pr0ner
7. grundbegriff - Throat ripped out
8.chaosraven - Vampire Snack
9. newcastle - Brujah
10. pr0ner - mr bubbles
11. genghis - headless human
12. Kelric
13. Ralph Wiggum - Vampire Main Course
14. Smutly - Vampire Chalice
15. Krash
__________________________________________________

pr0ner (3)
mr bubbles (2)

Majority 4 Once majority has been reached voting will be closed

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:38 pm

Mr Bubbles

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:40 pm

By the way, that updates the voting to 3 against me, and 2 against Bubbles.

Seriously, I'm not a vampire. I've played this game like pure ass, I admit. But if you kill me, you're one night closer to losing the game. I'd seriously reconsider your votes for me.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:45 pm

Krash wrote:I'll be out pretty much all day today (Sunday), so feel free to finish a vote if you guys want. I don't think there's a huge rush to finish it right now, but it seems most people have spoken.

What bothers me greatly though is that no one seems to show even a hint that pr0ner may be innocent (we know the vampire has a cohort out there), yet the 3 ACTUAL votes cast today were Mr. Bubbles, McNutt and Remus - the last two even after everyone else held back their vote for more discussion.

If I went on instinct alone, my vote would be for Mr. Bubbles and then to Remus or McNutt if Bubbles were guilty.

I'll be back later this evening. If the vote finishes and you find me dead the next morning, this game has been a wild ride indeed. Later.

I cast my vote because you had posted that you were waiting to hear from me. I have no problem pulling it back if you want to wait. withdraw pr0ner. He remains my number one suspect due to his actions in all of the votes but I am willing to listen to arguments towards others.

As far as Mr Bubbles and pr0ner are both concerned, their "vote for the other guy that seems popular did not do much for either of their images in my eyes. I just think that pr0ner is a much better bet right now.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:50 pm

BTW, I am still operating under the idea that Krash is not the original Vampire that was working with Austin, I think Austin was trying to get him set up to be lynched in the same way he got me to go for his "I'm the Priest lynch Genghis" gambit.

I do not currently have a lead on anyone I suspect of being the converted as I think it would be foolish to rule anyone out of that search. Hopefully we find a Vampire and can make some deductions from there.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:53 pm

Remus West wrote:BTW, I am still operating under the idea that Krash is not the original Vampire that was working with Austin, I think Austin was trying to get him set up to be lynched in the same way he got me to go for his "I'm the Priest lynch Genghis" gambit.

I agree.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:37 pm

Remus West wrote:BTW, I am still operating under the idea that Krash is not the original Vampire that was working with Austin, I think Austin was trying to get him set up to be lynched in the same way he got me to go for his "I'm the Priest lynch Genghis" gambit.

I do not currently have a lead on anyone I suspect of being the converted as I think it would be foolish to rule anyone out of that search. Hopefully we find a Vampire and can make some deductions from there.

If you're working off this theory, though, isn't it possible Austin turned Krash?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:52 pm

pr0ner wrote:
Remus West wrote:BTW, I am still operating under the idea that Krash is not the original Vampire that was working with Austin, I think Austin was trying to get him set up to be lynched in the same way he got me to go for his "I'm the Priest lynch Genghis" gambit.

I do not currently have a lead on anyone I suspect of being the converted as I think it would be foolish to rule anyone out of that search. Hopefully we find a Vampire and can make some deductions from there.
If you're working off this theory, though, isn't it possible Austin turned Krash?

As I said, I am not looking at anyone as not being the Converted save for myself.

Possible converted Vampires in my eyes:
mcnutt
cesare
mr. bubbles
pr0ner
Kelric
Krash

In the order tru1cy listed them on the vote tally, there is no most likely order yet.

The logic of looking at the overall game still remains a good idea for how we might find the original Scanner Vamp. I happen to agree that you and Mr Bubbles are the top two candidates for that role. I think it much more likely you. I pulled my vote because I do not like the idea that if I were to lynch one of you and be wrong I would then be tempted to lynch the other as a "sure thing", that feels far to much like a set up to me and I want to see some more arguments before either of you face the sword.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:10 pm

Remus West wrote:BTW, I am still operating under the idea that Krash is not the original Vampire that was working with Austin, I think Austin was trying to get him set up to be lynched in the same way he got me to go for his "I'm the Priest lynch Genghis" gambit.

I do not currently have a lead on anyone I suspect of being the converted as I think it would be foolish to rule anyone out of that search. Hopefully we find a Vampire and can make some deductions from there.

I would hope I've done enough to NOT be considered one of the original vampires.
I was the first to list a detailed suspicion of Austin and voted for him accordingly. Grund actually used this list to apply pressure to Austin.
I then moved my vote to Cesare in agreement with Remus' reasons, but moved it off quickly at Grund's request.
So I then was the first to vote for Newcastle as well.

Now, I'll be the first to say it was blind luck I picked Austin and Newcastle, but I had reasons for suspicion which I stated and I wouldn't think a fellow vampire would call out his two cohorts.

As for being turned, well I cannot prove anything to be honest. You guys have every reason to suspect me as any other since we're all basically non-specials searching for a couple vamps. But, I hope I'm poking around enough to show I'm genuine in trying to help the innocent, which I'll expand on in my next post.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:08 am

Krash wrote:
Remus West wrote:BTW, I am still operating under the idea that Krash is not the original Vampire that was working with Austin, I think Austin was trying to get him set up to be lynched in the same way he got me to go for his "I'm the Priest lynch Genghis" gambit.

I do not currently have a lead on anyone I suspect of being the converted as I think it would be foolish to rule anyone out of that search. Hopefully we find a Vampire and can make some deductions from there.
I would hope I've done enough to NOT be considered one of the original vampires.

In my eyes, you have. Up to that point, I firmly believe you innocent.

As for being turned, well I cannot prove anything to be honest. You guys have every reason to suspect me as any other since we're all basically non-specials searching for a couple vamps.

The same can be said for all of us. Trying to blindly find a turned player is not really a good way to find a vampire this round. I think our best evidence is going to point to one of the originals and I think that our two best choices are probably pr0ner and McNutt.

So... pr0ner

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:26 am

Poor choice, Kelric. Very poor choice.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:42 am

Remus West wrote:
Krash wrote:...
If I went on instinct alone, my vote would be for Mr. Bubbles and then to Remus or McNutt if Bubbles were guilty.
...
I cast my vote because you had posted that you were waiting to hear from me. I have no problem pulling it back if you want to wait.
...

Well, I said that about voting on instinct to reverse attention to Bubbles to see where loyalties lay and try to get a better picture of who is aligned with whom. What I see is that Remus pulled his vote off of pr0ner and willing to have further discussion. I don't think if Remus and Bubbles were cohorts that Remus would pull off his vote for pr0ner with a single vote needed to lynch him. That makes me think Remus is not a Childer.

I also noticed that McNutt posted right after Remus withdrew his pr0ner vote, agreed with Remus on some point, but did not withdraw his own vote against pr0ner.

Also, Kelric continues to play neutral, but if he was a Childer, I would gather he was aligned with Bubbles from THIS. Still, he doesn't seem to try to push one way or the other, so I would say his neutrality makes me think he is okay.

Lastly, when I was pushing for pr0ner, Cesare agrees with my assessments HERE, but gives a subtle push to vote for Bubbles. Now, when I reverse my stance to say that my vote would be for Bubbles, Cesare again agreed with points made and again pushed to one side, this time casting a vote for Bubbles.

So, what does that all tell us? Heh, I wish I knew, but it seems to refine our search for loyalties a bit. Currently, we have 4 votes cast:

Code: Select all

  Bubbles acc Remus(1)
  Bubbles wd Remus(0)
McNutt acc pr0ner(1)
  Remus acc pr0ner(2)
Cesare acc Bubbles(1)
Bubbles acc pr0ner(3)
pr0ner acc Bubbles(2)
  Remus wd pr0ner(2)

Bubbles and McNutt accuse pr0ner
pr0ner and Cesare accuse Bubbles

Again, my disclaimer is that I only know what you guys know and making my own deductions, so please feel free to add your points or correct me if you think my logic is wrong, but for whatever reasons, I get the feeling one of those pair is our vampire and Childer.

Of course though, it is never that simple, but this is where it all points. Again, I could be terribly wrong about Kelric and Remus, so you guys will have to make your own deductions. I am out of ideas to refine this any more. Also know that people may have legitimate reasons to do what they do, so don't just take my word that any particular action is damaging.

In saying that, I think I agree with Remus and Kelric in that pr0ner is probably our best vote now. I really don't know which way to go, but his history still remains the most damaging.

However, one thing casts a little doubt for me is this post HERE - pr0ner actually states that Cesare may have been turned. Is this some kind of cover or does that exonerate the pr0ner/Cesare theory? I don't really know because it seems everyone else is content to lynch pr0ner. Cesare was the only one who didn't explicitly express a pr0ner killing. If Cesare was a Childer with pr0ner, would pr0ner suggest that in his post? Could be I guess - I don't really know.

So, basically we fall back to this:

AGAINST PR0NER:
Remus, Bubbles and McNutt voted against pr0ner
Krash and Kelric stated he's probably more guilty than Bubbles

AGAINST BUBBLES:
pr0ner and Cesare voted against Bubbles
Krash willing to vote for him
Remus seems semi-willing to vote for him
Kelric feels he is innocent, but unsure

-----------------------
If pr0ner is guilty: Then we look at Cesare (wow, everyone else just doesn't like him)
If pr0ner is innocent: We take out Bubbles, then look at McNutt (or Kelric/Remus)

If Bubbles is guilty: Then we look at McNutt (or Kelric/Remus)
If Bubbles is innocent: We take out pr0ner, then look at Cesare
-----------------------

Are we able to also make an educated guess as to who Austin would turn? Would he turn someone under the radar like Cesare? Would he turn someone who helped make a push for Genghis when he and Smutly came out - that would be McNutt? /shrug

Alrighty then, where do we go from here? I'm okay with voting now unless anyone else wants more discussion. I just don't know the "right" place at the moment.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:51 am

FYI: Kelric has voted for me. I don't know if that changes your analysis or not.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:51 am

I started typing that last post before Kelric cast his vote, so we are now at 5 votes cast - 3 against pr0ner and 2 against Bubbles.

If pr0ner is innocent and we go after Bubbles - I think I would look at McNutt and Kelric equally after that. But, we'll see what happens now. We may not have to take it that far.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:56 am

pr0ner wrote:FYI: Kelric has voted for me. I don't know if that changes your analysis or not.

Not a great deal - it just confirms his "alignment" with Bubbles. However, with his statment that he "feels" Bubbles is innocent and that he states you and McNutt seem to be the best to vote for now, I would say that IF Bubbes were guilty, I would probably point to Kelric being the Childer over McNutt.

Also, I'm new to these games, but would I be wrong in thinking that Austin would choose Kelric over McNutt? Probably not.

Krash · Post by **Krash** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:01 am

You know, pr0ner, I want to believe you, especially after the way we lynched you in the BSG game when we all thought you were guilty then. However, I just cannot bring myself to defend you based on your play in this game. Well, my defense for you is that I'm not casting my vote right now, but I fully expect someone else to come in and do it.