[WW - nonvariant] Back to Basics - Game Over

[pr0ner]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record? I'm only two votes from termination, and the possibility of the wolves (since I'm not one) jumping on the bandwagon and killing me without a full discussion exists.

Let me ask you something. Dropping all other games from your thought process, and going off of only what's been presented to you in this game, does my behavior truly strike you as the behavior of a wolf?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record?

If you're not a wolf, I'd be shocked if one wolf hasn't already voted for you.

My guess is that the other wolf either hasn't voted or has voted for someone else.

[Grundbegriff]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record? I'm only two votes from termination, and the possibility of the wolves (since I'm not one) jumping on the bandwagon and killing me without a full discussion exists.

Seems like a good idea, since you're interactive and not exactly fighting tooth and nail.

Withdraw pr0ner

{Edit to add: I'm not recommending that everyone withdraw votes from pr0ner. Vote your conscience. I'm withdrawing my vote for now as a courtesy, to provide him the requested buffer that prevents a bumrush from putting him over the top. It's worth noting, though, that Remus is taking the flexible approach toward majorities; they're reversible until he notices. }

Dropping all other games from your thought process, and going off of only what's been presented to you in this game, does my behavior truly strike you as the behavior of a wolf?

What is the behavior of a Wolf? Concretely, I actually play informed by my knowledge of what folks have done in other games. In the abstract, any one of us could be a Wolf, since the Remester assigned roles randomly.

Your behavior so far is odd relative to the broader, intergame context. Within this gamespace alone, nobody really stands out yet-- the harsh reality of Day One Voting.

[pr0ner]

Thanks for the vote withdraw, Grund. Sadly, continuing our discussion will have to be on hold for now, as I'm out the door to dinner, and won't be back for a few hours.

One thing I'd like to get your thoughts on in the meantime. What are your feelings on Archinerd? He's made three posts so far: he asked what I've been up to with my nights, he was sarcastically happy about getting the first vote, then cast the first vote for me based on being off in my behavior (which you elaborated on), and then he vanished. That, to me at least, is more odd than my verbose behavior.

[pr0ner]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record?

If you're not a wolf, I'd be shocked if one wolf hasn't already voted for you.

My guess is that the other wolf either hasn't voted or has voted for someone else.

But if we go on the assumption that I'm not a wolf, there's nothing that would stop a wolf currently voting for someone else to tip the balance on a moment's notice.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record?

If you're not a wolf, I'd be shocked if one wolf hasn't already voted for you.

My guess is that the other wolf either hasn't voted or has voted for someone else.

But if we go on the assumption that I'm not a wolf, there's nothing that would stop a wolf currently voting for someone else to tip the balance on a moment's notice.

Sure there is. Everyone playing in this game is a veteran. Thus, we all know that vote timing is one basis for garnering suspicion. The last thing a wolf wants to do, especially early in the game, is cast the deciding vote. Thus, I would wager that only one wolf will vote for you and, if he does, that wolf probably has already voted.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Following that line of reasoning (and if you're innocent), one of these players is probably a wolf:

Archinard
Grundbegriff
Cesare
Austin

Since a true wolf probably wouldn't cast the first vote, I'm going to say that Archinard is innocent.

So that leaves Grund, Cesare, and Austin as possible wolves.

If Grund was a wolf, I don't think he would be as forceful in his condemnation of you as he has been. So I'm ruling him out.

That leaves Cesare and Austin as potential wolves. But which one? That I haven't figured out yet.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

If, however, you are a wolf then our suspects are obviously different. A wolf would have done two things, either vote for you early and forcefully or not vote for you. So that means our potential wolves are anyone but Cesare and Austin.

[Grundbegriff]

Thanks for the vote withdraw, Grund. Sadly, continuing our discussion will have to be on hold for now, as I'm out the door to dinner, and won't be back for a few hours.

Bait and switch, eh?

Bon appétit! Who's the victim?

One thing I'd like to get your thoughts on in the meantime. What are your feelings on Archinerd?

Why would you ask me that when I (and I alone) have already shared my thoughts about everyone, including Archinerd under (h), right here?

If you're trying to seem less suspicious, you're not doing very well. Having gained an opportunity to discuss your possible imminent demise, you (a) bail, which is understandable in view of pesky Reality, and (b) waste the opportunity by hashing over stuff already in the record.

That's weird, Broderick.

He's made three posts so far: he asked what I've been up to with my nights, he was sarcastically happy about getting the first vote, then cast the first vote for me based on being off in my behavior (which you elaborated on), and then he vanished. That, to me at least, is more odd than my verbose behavior.

Well, that's why I said "I guess the two who seem most interesting at this point are pr0ner and Archinerd." Yeah, he's making the antennae pulse. But you're making 'em pulse more.

It does look as if Archinerd's gunning for you a bit. My problem is that I don't know whether that sort of thing is normal for him. It's true that a forward Vampire will sometimes ride and harass an innocent until it comes across like overplaying the hand. Maybe Archinerd's doing that (or maybe he was doing that, until you called him out on it).

What I do know-- or think I know-- is that your behavior isn't consistent with how you've played in the past. I considered voting against each of you, and you won. This much is clear, though; since Archinerd is gunning for you, you're probably not on the same team. If we do lynch one of you and the hanged is innocent, the other is gonna have some splainin' to do.

[Lassr]

withdraw Austin

proner is bugging me now.

It's early and I don't have much to go on.

[Lassr]

He seems defensive for just a normal villager. His asking about archinerd seems to me to be trying to steer people away from him. It's not much but all I got for now.

edit: I'm talking about proner...

edit#2 spelling

[Austin]

Following that line of reasoning (and if you're innocent), one of these players is probably a wolf:

Archinard
Grundbegriff
Cesare
Austin

Since a true wolf probably wouldn't cast the first vote, I'm going to say that Archinard is innocent.

So that leaves Grund, Cesare, and Austin as possible wolves.

If Grund was a wolf, I don't think he would be as forceful in his condemnation of you as he has been. So I'm ruling him out.

That leaves Cesare and Austin as potential wolves. But which one? That I haven't figured out yet.

Ralph, I disagree with this. (And not because I'm on the this list. I matter not) Everyone here has played these games and know that Grund or you or someone is waiting to make that exact argument. I wouldn't be surprised if none of your list are wolves. Of course I know that 3 of the 4 might be. It just strikes me as too easy and actually gives the wolves a shelter to hide under. Just don't vote.

The danger here is eventually people will just start avoiding voting and we won't have voting records to go on. Of course you may be right and there is a wolf on your list though. I dunno'. I don't care much for Day 1 but don't start setting a precedent for people to avoid voting to avoid early termination from the game. It's becoming that it's almost more likely those with nothing to lose will vote on Day 1. (From my medium experience)

[Archinerd]

Following that line of reasoning (and if you're innocent), one of these players is probably a wolf:

Archinard
Grundbegriff
Cesare
Austin

Since a true wolf probably wouldn't cast the first vote, I'm going to say that Archinard is innocent.

So that leaves Grund, Cesare, and Austin as possible wolves.

If Grund was a wolf, I don't think he would be as forceful in his condemnation of you as he has been. So I'm ruling him out.

That leaves Cesare and Austin as potential wolves. But which one? That I haven't figured out yet.

I don't think you should be so quick to rule Grund out, unless you two are buddies, then go ahead and minimize suspicion on him as much as you can.

Honestly though, I think Grund hopped on pr0ner for two reasons. Like me, he also picked up on pr0ners unusual quanity and quality of posts AND, he wanted to see who else would jump on after him.. or who doesn't.

As it is right now, another better target hasn't presented itself, so I'm going to stick with pr0ner. Sorry if you were trying something new pr0ner, maybe next time.

[Cesare]

Following that line of reasoning (and if you're innocent), one of these players is probably a wolf:

Archinard
Grundbegriff
Cesare
Austin

Since a true wolf probably wouldn't cast the first vote, I'm going to say that Archinard is innocent.

So that leaves Grund, Cesare, and Austin as possible wolves.

If Grund was a wolf, I don't think he would be as forceful in his condemnation of you as he has been. So I'm ruling him out.

That leaves Cesare and Austin as potential wolves. But which one? That I haven't figured out yet.

Heh. Nice try.

You're assuming pr0ner is innocent, which is still up in the air, but you immediately try really hard to shift wolf-blame on either me or Austin.

..the whole thing smacks of effort.

[Grundbegriff]

Heading for bed. Here's an update:

Code: Select all

Kelric acc Archinerd ("for the hell of it")
Lassr acc Austin ("seems overly active and it's bugging me")
  pr0ner acc Austin ("simply because he's irked me from the start")
Archinerd acc pr0ner ("is most out of character")
  Grundbegriff acc pr0ner ("probable evildoer")
Cesare acc pr0ner ("based on what we know (practically nothing)")
Ralph-Wiggum acc tru1cy ("has stood out with ... lack of posting")
  pr0ner wd Austin
  pr0ner acc tru1cy ("It would be far better to lie low")
tru1cy acc tru1cy ("I'm not a wolf, so losing me is no great concern")
  pr0ner wd tru1cy
PR_GMR acc Ralph-Wiggum ("My sixth sense is tingling")
  Grundbegriff wd pr0ner ("as a courtesy to provide him the requested buffer")
  Lassr wd Austin
Lassr acc pr0ner ("is bugging me now")

Against Archinerd(1): Kelric
Against pr0ner(3): Archinerd, Cesare, Lassr
Against tru1cy(2): Ralph-Wiggum, tru1cy
Against Ralph-Wiggum(1): PR_GMR

No vote registered yet: Austin, Bakhtosh, Grundbegriff, pr0ner

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Heh. Nice try.

You're assuming pr0ner is innocent, which is still up in the air, but you immediately try really hard to shift wolf-blame on either me or Austin.

..the whole thing smacks of effort.

Did you not read my post immediately following that one?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

No vote registered yet: Austin, Bakhtosh, Grundbegriff, pr0ner

Unless I'm mistaken, Austin has voted (and hasn't withdrawn his vote) for pr0ner.

[Austin]

Heading for bed. Here's an update:

Code: Select all

Kelric acc Archinerd ("for the hell of it")
Lassr acc Austin ("seems overly active and it's bugging me")
  pr0ner acc Austin ("simply because he's irked me from the start")
Archinerd acc pr0ner ("is most out of character")
  Grundbegriff acc pr0ner ("probable evildoer")
Cesare acc pr0ner ("based on what we know (practically nothing)")
Ralph-Wiggum acc tru1cy ("has stood out with ... lack of posting")
  pr0ner wd Austin
  pr0ner acc tru1cy ("It would be far better to lie low")
tru1cy acc tru1cy ("I'm not a wolf, so losing me is no great concern")
  pr0ner wd tru1cy
PR_GMR acc Ralph-Wiggum ("My sixth sense is tingling")
  Grundbegriff wd pr0ner ("as a courtesy to provide him the requested buffer")
  Lassr wd Austin
Lassr acc pr0ner ("is bugging me now")

Against Archinerd(1): Kelric
Against pr0ner(3): Archinerd, Cesare, Lassr
Against tru1cy(2): Ralph-Wiggum, tru1cy
Against Ralph-Wiggum(1): PR_GMR

No vote registered yet: Austin, Bakhtosh, Grundbegriff, pr0ner

Actually I voted for Pr0ner. I think... I'll check.

Edit: Uh... yeah, what Ralph said above me.

Anyway, I don't see any compelling reason to withdraw my vote for Pr0ner. Sorry Pr0ner, I'm not sure who else to vote for today though.


(If you're wolfy and I'm probably 60% sure you are, I withdraw my apology. )

[Grundbegriff]

No vote registered yet: Austin, Bakhtosh, Grundbegriff, pr0ner

Unless I'm mistaken, Austin has voted (and hasn't withdrawn his vote) for pr0ner.

Whoops. You're right; I missed this post here.

Sorry about that. Here's a corrected update:

Code: Select all

Kelric acc Archinerd ("for the hell of it")
Lassr acc Austin ("seems overly active and it's bugging me")
  pr0ner acc Austin ("simply because he's irked me from the start")
Archinerd acc pr0ner ("is most out of character")
  Grundbegriff acc pr0ner ("probable evildoer")
Cesare acc pr0ner ("based on what we know (practically nothing)")
Ralph-Wiggum acc tru1cy ("has stood out with ... lack of posting")
  pr0ner wd Austin
  pr0ner acc tru1cy ("It would be far better to lie low")
tru1cy acc tru1cy ("I'm not a wolf, so losing me is no great concern")
  pr0ner wd tru1cy
PR_GMR acc Ralph-Wiggum ("My sixth sense is tingling")
Austin acc pr0ner ("Does seem a bit odd.... Best I can guess at")
  Grundbegriff wd pr0ner ("as a courtesy to provide him the requested buffer")
  Lassr wd Austin
Lassr acc pr0ner ("is bugging me now")

Against Archinerd(1): Kelric
Against pr0ner(4): Archinerd, Cesare, Austin, Lassr
Against tru1cy(2): Ralph-Wiggum, tru1cy
Against Ralph-Wiggum(1): PR_GMR

No vote registered yet: Bakhtosh, Grundbegriff, pr0ner

[Austin]

Where is Bahktosh anyway?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Where is Bahktosh anyway?

I don't think he has easily acquirable internet access during the weekends.

[Bakhtosh]

Right...dial-up sucks the big one. That, a sick daughter and lots of home projects kept me offline this weekend.

Catching up now.

[Austin]

Right...dial-up sucks the big one. That, a sick daughter and lots of home projects kept me offline this weekend.

Catching up now.

Yay!

[Remus West]

Current Vote Tally

1. Austin - pr0ner
2. ChrisGrenard - First Snack
3. Grundbegriff -
4. Ralph-Wiggum - tru1cy
5. PR_GMR - Ralph-Wiggum
6. Bakhtosh -
7. tru1cy - tru1cy
8. Kelric - Archinerd
9. pr0ner -
10. Cesare - pr0ner
11. Lassr - pr0ner
12. Archinerd - pr0ner

Ralph-Wiggum - 1
tru1cy - 2
pr0ner - 4
Archinerd - 1

Cast your votes at will.
6 votes needed for majority.
Votes are not binding until I check the thread and may be withdrawn at any time before I declare a majority reached.

[Archinerd]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record? I'm only two votes from termination, and the possibility of the wolves (since I'm not one) jumping on the bandwagon and killing me without a full discussion exists.

This post makes me more suspicious.

pr0ner is rarely this verbose, we've been over this. Grund pointed it out also. What is interesting is that pr0ner could have asked anyone to withdraw their votes long enough for discussion, but he specifically asked Grund to. Is it possible that Grund and pr0ner worked something out behind the scenes to give Grund an 'out' for not voting for a friend?

Even if this is not the case, it is still odd that pr0ner singled Grund out of the rest of us.

[Grundbegriff]

Is it possible that Grund and pr0ner worked something out behind the scenes to give Grund an 'out' for not voting for a friend?

No, it's not possible. I've already expressed my intention to vote against pr0ner unless another option comes along. In fact, I expressed that intention in the very message where I withdrew my vote, so this shouldn't be unclear to you.

I'm merely giving him a chance to explain himself.

Even if this is not the case, it is still odd that pr0ner singled Grund out of the rest of us.

I think it was habit. In past games, he has sometimes waited for me to vote my own recommendation before following it, and he has sometimes asked me whether I'd be willing to retract. It's one of the tactics by means of which pr0ner sizes someone up.

[Archinerd]

pr0ner is again in dog pile position. I'm withdrawing long enough for him to respond to my above observation.

withdraw pr0ner.

[Bakhtosh]

I agree that pr0ner is acting suspicious. I'm also going to put Ralph on my list with Kelric rounding out the top 3.

Like most everyone, I'd like to be a bit cautious on this first vote. You really hate to have this vote scrutinized and analyzed when only 2 people know what's going on. Even worse would be not voting and that person turns out to be a wolf.

Give me an hour to bounce it around. If someone casts the deciding vote by then, so be it...but I need to think it over.

[pr0ner]

Grund, while we debate this further, would you be willing to strike your vote of me from the record? I'm only two votes from termination, and the possibility of the wolves (since I'm not one) jumping on the bandwagon and killing me without a full discussion exists.

This post makes me more suspicious.

pr0ner is rarely this verbose, we've been over this. Grund pointed it out also. What is interesting is that pr0ner could have asked anyone to withdraw their votes long enough for discussion, but he specifically asked Grund to. Is it possible that Grund and pr0ner worked something out behind the scenes to give Grund an 'out' for not voting for a friend?

Even if this is not the case, it is still odd that pr0ner singled Grund out of the rest of us.

I've had no PM contact with Grund whatsoever. The only communication I've had with him is here in the thread, as he already said.

[pr0ner]

Thanks for the vote withdraw, Grund. Sadly, continuing our discussion will have to be on hold for now, as I'm out the door to dinner, and won't be back for a few hours.

Bait and switch, eh?

Bon appétit! Who's the victim?

One thing I'd like to get your thoughts on in the meantime. What are your feelings on Archinerd?

Why would you ask me that when I (and I alone) have already shared my thoughts about everyone, including Archinerd under (h), right here?

If you're trying to seem less suspicious, you're not doing very well. Having gained an opportunity to discuss your possible imminent demise, you (a) bail, which is understandable in view of pesky Reality, and (b) waste the opportunity by hashing over stuff already in the record.

That's weird, Broderick.

He's made three posts so far: he asked what I've been up to with my nights, he was sarcastically happy about getting the first vote, then cast the first vote for me based on being off in my behavior (which you elaborated on), and then he vanished. That, to me at least, is more odd than my verbose behavior.

Well, that's why I said "I guess the two who seem most interesting at this point are pr0ner and Archinerd." Yeah, he's making the antennae pulse. But you're making 'em pulse more.

It does look as if Archinerd's gunning for you a bit. My problem is that I don't know whether that sort of thing is normal for him. It's true that a forward Vampire will sometimes ride and harass an innocent until it comes across like overplaying the hand. Maybe Archinerd's doing that (or maybe he was doing that, until you called him out on it).

What I do know-- or think I know-- is that your behavior isn't consistent with how you've played in the past. I considered voting against each of you, and you won. This much is clear, though; since Archinerd is gunning for you, you're probably not on the same team. If we do lynch one of you and the hanged is innocent, the other is gonna have some splainin' to do.

The problem I have with everything you're saying is that you are/were trying to convince everyone to railroad me to my death based on a suspicion. The posts of mine you've quoted in the past is grasping for straws. At that, I could just as easily cite your comments that you've been "running with the wolves" and that I'm not fighting "tooth and nail" and your "Bon appétit! Who's the victim?" comment while accusing me of a bait and switch because I had a real life engagement to go to as reeking of wolfdom. But, which one of us has the better case? I'd say neither, since we're both going off wild suspicion that we see in each others' posts that has no real basis in logic, only idle speculation.

[Bakhtosh]

Sorry...work and zombie killing intruded.

I think I'm going with Ralph-Wiggum for right now.

I'm not ruling out pr0ner, but he seems to be fighting a little hard...could he be the seer? Or is he a wolf? Or just an innocent who wants to keep playing?

[Grundbegriff]

The problem I have with everything you're saying is that you are/were trying to convince everyone to railroad me to my death based on a suspicion.

First, I'm doing no such thing. Far from attempting to persuade anyone, all I've done is (a) openly present my assessment of what the vote counts and posting styles so far might mean, and (b) explain why they tilt me toward wondering about you and Archinerd. Everyone else is free to do the same, and some have.

I realize my opinions might influence others (just as theirs might influence me), so I encourage each player to think for himself. That's precisely why I post tools and data without commentary and then provide my take on the data separately. Think of it as a public service.

Second, your "based on a suspicion" comment makes no sense. Isn't every single play in the entire game reducible to "based on a suspicion" for everyone except the Seer and Wolves? It's a game of suspicion and intrigue; that's sort of the point, eh?

The posts of mine you've quoted in the past is grasping for straws.

As Cesare rightly observes, the gruel is rather thin on Day#1. I suppose we could allow that to paralyze us entirely, but the game would be somewhat less interesting if we did.

I could just as easily cite your comments that you've been "running with the wolves" and that I'm not fighting "tooth and nail" and your "Bon appétit! Who's the victim?" comment

Yes, you could.

which one of us has the better case? I'd say neither, since we're both going off wild suspicion that we see in each others' posts that has no real basis in logic, only idle speculation.

You have a vested interest in saying "neither", don't you, pr0ner? You're the one whose weird behavior has attracted attention at the very moment that we're looking for a malefactor in our midst. "Can't we all just get along?" is hardly a rebuttal when various people remark on how much you're standing out.

"Going off on wild suspicion" is colorful language; "no real basis in logic" is misleading language. There would be no need for color or misdirection if you hadn't acted Wolfy in the first place. I temporarily retracted my vote to give you a chance to make your case. I figured you'd either (a) grasp at straws in a desperate effort to stall for time, or (b) you'd make some sense and try to help us uncover the Invaders.

I'm sorry to see, pr0ner, that you've done (a) and not (b). In light of what you've done with your borrowed time, what choice do we have? If you're Human, that'll be an unfortunate but typical way to start the game; but if you're a Werewolf, that'll be a huge advantage for the game's first turn.

[Kelric]

Since my Archinerd vote has only my support, I might as well switch it up.

pr0ner

Not because anyone convinced me to vote for him, mostly just to get the game moving.

[Grundbegriff]

Code: Select all

Kelric acc Archinerd ("for the hell of it")
Lassr acc Austin ("seems overly active and it's bugging me")
  pr0ner acc Austin ("simply because he's irked me from the start")
  Archinerd acc pr0ner ("is most out of character")
  Grundbegriff acc pr0ner ("probable evildoer")
Cesare acc pr0ner ("based on what we know (practically nothing)")
Ralph-Wiggum acc tru1cy ("has stood out with ... lack of posting")
  pr0ner wd Austin
  pr0ner acc tru1cy ("It would be far better to lie low")
tru1cy acc tru1cy ("I'm not a wolf, so losing me is no great concern")
  pr0ner wd tru1cy
PR_GMR acc Ralph-Wiggum ("My sixth sense is tingling")
Austin acc pr0ner ("Does seem a bit odd.... Best I can guess at")
  Grundbegriff wd pr0ner ("as a courtesy to provide him the requested buffer")
  Lassr wd Austin
Lassr acc pr0ner ("is bugging me now")
  Archinerd wd pr0ner ("long enough for him to respond")
Bakhtosh acc Ralph-Wiggum ("for right now")
Grundbegriff acc pr0ner ("What choice do we have?")
Kelric acc pr0ner ("just to get the game moving")

Against pr0ner(5): Cesare, Austin, Lassr, Grundbegriff, Kelric
Against tru1cy(2): Ralph-Wiggum, tru1cy
Against Ralph-Wiggum(2): Bakhtosh, PR_GMR

No vote registered yet: Archinerd, pr0ner

[Remus West]

Current Vote Tally

1. Austin - pr0ner
2. ChrisGrenard - First Snack
3. Grundbegriff - proner
4. Ralph-Wiggum - tru1cy
5. PR_GMR - Ralph-Wiggum
6. Bakhtosh - Ralph-Wiggum
7. tru1cy - tru1cy
8. Kelric - pr0ner
9. pr0ner -
10. Cesare - pr0ner
11. Lassr - pr0ner
12. Archinerd -

Ralph-Wiggum - 2
tru1cy - 2
pr0ner - 5


Cast your votes at will.
6 votes needed for majority.
Votes are not binding until I check the thread and may be withdrawn at any time before I declare a majority reached.

[pr0ner]

Grundbegriff

[Archinerd]

..and back to pr0ner

[Remus West]

Current Vote Tally

1. Austin - pr0ner
2. ChrisGrenard - First Snack
3. Grundbegriff - proner
4. Ralph-Wiggum - tru1cy
5. PR_GMR - Ralph-Wiggum
6. Bakhtosh - Ralph-Wiggum
7. tru1cy - tru1cy
8. Kelric - pr0ner
9. pr0ner - Grundbegriff
10. Cesare - pr0ner
11. Lassr - pr0ner
12. Archinerd - pr0ner

Grundbegriff - 1
Ralph-Wiggum - 2
tru1cy - 2
pr0ner - 6


Voting is closed

[pr0ner]

Weee, way to go, killing the seer on day 1.

[Kelric]

Weee, way to go, killing the seer on day 1.

Of course, if the Seer had come out and said he was the Seer....