2012 Elections

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Yeah, one odd thing to me was the fact that the first Commandment is that you shall have no other gods before me. It kind of presupposes that there are actually other gods around.

It's fairly clear in Genesis (and Exodus) that the writers acknowledge the existence of other gods. It's just that the god of Abraham is more powerful than those gods and can kick their asses.

[hepcat]

I've read a few editorials ridiculing her plans for lowering gas prices. I can't decide if she's smart or dumb, though:

Pro Smart: She KNOWS these things are unachievable/unrealistic/stupid but is banking on blind support from a legion of slavish tea partiers that will just react to the message itself and not the facts (or truth) behind it. Thanks to Palin and her anti-media mantras, any attempt by journalists to discredit a conservative candidate is met with complete and utter denial by many in their camp. To be fair though, the media has brought that upon themselves in some instances with their love of jumping to conclusions themselves before the facts are all in. However, ignoring them when they DO have the evidence is just ridiculous.

Pro Dumb: Any other way you look at it.

[Fireball]

You're assuming the Christian God of the Bible is THE Creator.

I had an interesting conversation with a Rabbi once in which it was mentioned that the word for 'god' originally used in the early part of Genesis is actually a plural.

Ancient Judaism was clearly henotheistic, similar to pre-Islam Mecca. Monotheism came much later.

[Grifman]

I really don't want my God playing favorites or having mood swings.

Then you have nothing to worry about other than a strawman of your own creation

[Isgrimnur]

At least it should help with the crows.

[Mr. Fed]

Yeah, one odd thing to me was the fact that the first Commandment is that you shall have no other gods before me. It kind of presupposes that there are actually other gods around.

It's fairly clear in Genesis (and Exodus) that the writers acknowledge the existence of other gods. It's just that the god of Abraham is more powerful than those gods and can kick their asses.

I respectfully dissent that it's fairly clear. It's a disputed issue. There are explanations for "us" language that involve grammar or foreshadowing the Trinity rather than there being other gods about.

[Grundbegriff]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

[Rip]

So...uhh...yeah. Michelle Bachmann has revealed her plans for lowering gas to under $2 a gallon:

“We have the supply. That’s the good news. We have the resouces. The problem has been that we have not been willing to access those resources. So if we increase supply obviously we’ll be able to be a provider. We can be our own best customer and we can be a supplier to the world if we just choose to be,” she said.

Isn't that just "Drill, baby, drill" redux?

Wow, now we know she doesn't understand shit about the energy industry.

If we did nothing but drill every place we could find oil we couldn't cover ourselves, let alone be a supplier to the world.

Rip

Actually we could... for about a week.

Yea, maybe that is what she meant.

If we could just suck all of our natural resources out of the ground she could turn us into a global powerhouse...we at least for most of her presidency when it counts. Who gives a crap what happens after that unless she could get a constitutional amendment to execute that pesky little law.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, Huntsman seems to be enjoying himself. I'm enjoying the moans of anti-Huntsman outrage from the partisans.

Huntsman suggests he'd like to be VP to Michelle Bachmann

What is this I don't even

[Rip]

I really don't want my God playing favorites or having mood swings.

Then you have nothing to worry about other than a strawman of your own creation

Oh crap there it is.

Scampers off to start making tee-shirts and mugs inscribed with...

God - The ultimate strawman!

Brilliant!

[Rip]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

What about if you said the were wombmates?

[El Guapo]

Yeah, Huntsman seems to be enjoying himself. I'm enjoying the moans of anti-Huntsman outrage from the partisans.

Huntsman suggests he'd like to be VP to Michelle Bachmann

What is this I don't even

He didn't say he'd like to be VP, he said he'd be willing to - any opportunity to help the country, basically. Makes sense politically, since if you say no, what you're basically saying is "this person is grossly unqualified to be President." Which Huntsman may well think (it is true, after all), but it's something you generally avoid during primaries when you have to be more civil to your opponents.

[Smoove_B]

Fair enough

I'm trying to get this thread back on track

[Mr. Fed]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

Or, for that matter, that they should get married.

[hepcat]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

Or, for that matter, that they should get married.

He's LDS...that's only one letter away from FLDS.

[Zarathud]

If you drill deep enough, God will provide the Oil.

[Exodor]

How the hell did we miss this back during Iowa Straw Poll time?

(spoilered for NSFW-ness)

Spoiler:

Michelle Bachmann enjoys a corn dog at the Iowa State Fair






(After seeing that I'm really doubting the "Marcus is Gay" rumors)
EDIT: on the other hand...

Spoiler:

You would think someone in the campaign would have realized a corn-dog eating photo op was a bad idea

[Captain Caveman]

How the hell did we miss this back during Iowa Straw Poll time?

(spoilered for NSFW-ness)

Spoiler:

Michelle Bachmann enjoys a corn dog at the Iowa State Fair

I heard that was the original Newsweek cover before they decided to go with something more flattering.

[Defiant]

Spoiler:

n a little-noticed passage in his first book, “On My Honor,” an encomium on the Boy Scouts published in 2008, Perry also drew a parallel between homosexuality and alcoholism. “Even if an alcoholic is powerless over alcohol once it enters his body, he still makes a choice to drink,” he wrote. “And, even if someone is attracted to a person of the same sex, he or she still makes a choice to engage in sexual activity with someone of the same gender.”

In “On My Honor,” Perry also punted on the exact origins of homosexuality. He wrote that he is “no expert on the ‘nature versus nurture’ debate,” but that gays should simply choose abstinence. Perry’s campaign did not respond to a request for comment on whether he maintains this view.

In other words, as far as this Republican presidential candidate is concerned, gay people just shouldn’t have sex — ever. They should simply “make a choice” not to “engage in sexual activity.”

I think Rick Perry should simply "make a choice" not to "engage in political activity". Or in any activity that has him open his mouth, like eating corn dogs or saying stupid stuff.

[Fitzy]

Michelle Bachmann enjoys a corn dog at the Iowa State Fair






(After seeing that I'm really doubting the "Marcus is Gay" rumors)


You would think someone in the campaign would have realized a corn-dog eating photo op was a bad idea

It's a Midwest State Fair. Everything is long, hard and on a stick. It's not like they had a choice on what to eat.

[Mr. Fed]

(After seeing that I'm really doubting the "Marcus is Gay" rumors)

There's no reason to call a man gay just because he has different mannerisms. Doing so, even nominally in opposition to homophobia and in service to tolerance, helps to promote the gay=pathological idea, and does everyone a disservice.

Marcus Bachmann is perfectly classically masculine and heterosexual.

[Captain Caveman]

Meh, his elbows are too pointy.

[Carpet_pissr]

Huh. She looks a lot like a younger Barbara Bush.

[Alefroth]

Ale

[Defiant]

[GreenGoo]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

It does if the way you tell me they are roommates is by forbidding me to live with them. If they don't actually exist what's the point in making it a commandment that I can't hang out with them?

[Grifman]

I really don't want my God playing favorites or having mood swings.

Then you have nothing to worry about other than a strawman of your own creation

Oh crap there it is.

Scampers off to start making tee-shirts and mugs inscribed with...

God - The ultimate strawman!

Brilliant!

The strawmen just keep growing here

[Grifman]

If they don't actually exist what's the point in making it a commandment that I can't hang out with them?

Because while I know they do not exist, you by "hanging out with them", imply that you do believe that they do exist.

[Grundbegriff]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

It does if the way you tell me they are roommates is by forbidding me to live with them. If they don't actually exist what's the point in making it a commandment that I can't hang out with them?

As the text explains, it's highly stupid to make an idol of stone or wood with your own hands and then to turn around and worship it. In general, high stupidity is discouraged. So prohibiting the worship of, say, Asherah does not entail an affirmation that Asherah actually exists; it merely entails that humans be inclined to do such a thing.

[Defiant]

Perry's record on taxes

[Smoove_B]

[GreenGoo]

In addition, at least one term for "gods" is also used to refer to human authorities, e.g., judges or magistrates. In addition, referring to gods doesn't automatically carry existential import, just as my telling you that Holmes and Watson were roommates doesn't commit me to their actual existence.

It does if the way you tell me they are roommates is by forbidding me to live with them. If they don't actually exist what's the point in making it a commandment that I can't hang out with them?

As the text explains, it's highly stupid to make an idol of stone or wood with your own hands and then to turn around and worship it. In general, high stupidity is discouraged. So prohibiting the worship of, say, Asherah does not entail an affirmation that Asherah actually exists; it merely entails that humans be inclined to do such a thing.

Is idolatry the same commandment as no gods before me?

Serious question.

Edit: Ok, I see that they are not.

Now what? I don't buy for a minute that a God would tell us not to worship other gods, but actually mean there aren't any other gods. Especially if high stupidity is discouraged.

[Defiant]

Ron Paul: Lets Bringing Fema into the 19th century

GILFORD, N.H. -- After a lunch speech today, Ron Paul slammed the Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, and said that no national response to Hurricane Irene is necessary.

"We should be like 1900; we should be like 1940, 1950, 1960," Paul said. "I live on the Gulf Coast; we deal with hurricanes all the time. Galveston is in my district.

[Grundbegriff]

I don't buy for a minute that a God would tell us not to worship other gods, but actually mean there aren't any other gods. Especially if high stupidity is discouraged.

I'm not sure I see your point.

Are you disputing what the text of the Torah says? Or are you offering a theological opinion?

If you're asserting that the text must always affirm the actual existence of other gods when it refers to "gods" or "idols", then I don't think the evidence favors your view. The text repeatedly insists that molten gods, gods of gold and silver, household idols, and the like, are not gods at all but merely the inanimate products of human craft. The prohibition against worshiping other gods isn't affirming that other gods are real; it's affirming that people have a regrettable tendency to treat non-gods as gods. Mockery of humans for worshiping gods of their own construction is frequent in these texts.

For example, consider the amusing story of Rachel and the Teraphim:

Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole her father's household gods....

"... And now you have gone away because you longed greatly for your father's house, but why did you steal my gods?" Jacob answered and said to Laban, "Because I was afraid, for I thought that you would take your daughters from me by force. Anyone with whom you find your gods shall not live. In the presence of our kinsmen point out what I have that is yours, and take it." Now Jacob did not know that Rachel had stolen them.

So Laban went into Jacob's tent and into Leah's tent and into the tent of the two female servants, but he did not find them. And he went out of Leah's tent and entered Rachel's. Now Rachel had taken the household gods and put them in the camel's saddle and sat on them. Laban felt all about the tent, but did not find them. And she said to her father, "Let not my lord be angry that I cannot arise before you, for the way of women is upon me." So he searched but did not find the household gods.

In this comical tale, Rachel has stolen her father's set of idols, but Jacob doesn't know this. So he tells Laban to search wherever he will, and Rachel has to think fast. With the gods tucked away in a saddle bag, she mounts and then claims to be on her period-- ritually impure in a way that dissuades Laban from searching too carefully.

The word translated as "gods" here, teraphim, probably refers to votive statuettes used for personal devotion, like the ones Kara Thrace keeps in her locker. The text strongly emphasizes that they're manmade and insignificant by, in effect, treating them with a contemptuous lack of decorum.

This attitude-- that idols are just stuff, and dishonorable stuff at that-- is evident throughout the Tanakh. And the complaint isn't that the actual gods whom the statues represent are weak; the complaint is that the statues are themselves gods, and yet they're laughable because humans made them and they have no life. So we read in Deuteronomy 4 that "you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell." Here, the word is elohim but the concept is analogous: the prohibited gods are treated as craft objects, not actual divine entities.

In nearly every case in which "gods" are mentioned, the text emphasizes that they're made of metal or wood, that they can be cut down, and that they have no power. It's not that their Kung Fu is weak, but that it's nugatory. The same sort of point is made later, in 1 Kings 18, in a hilarious episode in which the prophet Elijah challenges the prophets of Baal to a competition: dueling sacrifices. They set up two altars, one for each contestant, and place an offering on each. Then the prophets of Baal pray that Baal will set his offering ablaze. They pray and pray, but nothing happens. The takeaway? Nothing happens because Baal isn't real. Then Elijah drenches his altar with four barrels of water, prays, and stands back as his God incinerates the sacrifice, the altar, all the water, and pretty much everything within the small blast radius.

You'll find many places in the text that mock people for worshiping non-sentient statues and symbols. What you'll not find in the Hebrew scriptures is any episode in which a foreign god is treated as a real metaphysical entity embroiled in the narrative.

[GreenGoo]

My point is that idolatry and no gods before me are two separate commandments, so wooden or even golden calves are a separate issue from other gods.

[Holman]

My point is that idolatry and no gods before me are two separate commandments, so wooden or even golden calves are a separate issue from other gods.

I think Grund has the weight of theological, historical, and anthropological consensus behind him: the Bible itself nowhere implies the existence of other real deities. (Satan and angelic beings are easily accommodated as parts of God's creation rather than prior to it.)

But isn't it also part of the consensus that the Bible is a later, sophisticated Scripture that scrubs out some early inconsistencies? It seems likely that beta versions of Yahweh had to argue within a polytheistic milieu, even if the text as we have it is past that point.

[Grundbegriff]

My point is that idolatry and no gods before me are two separate commandments, so wooden or even golden calves are a separate issue from other gods.

(As a matter of trivia, note that Catholics and Lutherns regard these as a single commandment and split the tenth into two.)

The fact that acts of reverence and acts of craftsmanship are separable does not imply anything about the existence of whatever is being revered.

Let me see whether I can help you here by putting it in gamer's terms.

Suppose that
(A) you have a wife and a computer.

Suppose further that
(B) Knights of the Old Republic and Planescape: Torment are installed on the computer
and that
(C) some game development software (platform, language, etc.) is installed on the computer.

If your wife says "You act like you love Bastila and Fall-from-Grace more than you love me, so stop that! Also, don't you dare make any games; the ones you have are already nothing but trouble."

Setting aside her Luddite tendencies and her iconoclasm, your imagined wife is prohibiting two things: she's forbidding you to love Bastila and Fall-from-Grace more than you love her, and she's forbidding you to make any more such characters to fritter away your time with.

Now, here's the key question. Is your imagined wife affirming
(P) that Bastila and Fall-from-Grace actually exist?
Or
(Q) that Bastila and Fall-from-Grace are merely a set of images, virtual things, to which you give greater regard than you offer to the real people around you (notably, your wife)?

With reflection, I expect you'll see that separating (B) from (C) doesn't have anything to do with implying (P) rather than (Q).

[Grundbegriff]

I think Grund has the weight of theological, historical, and anthropological consensus behind him: the Bible itself nowhere implies the existence of other real deities. (Satan and angelic beings are easily accommodated as parts of God's creation rather than prior to it.)

But isn't it also part of the consensus that the Bible is a later, sophisticated Scripture that scrubs out some early inconsistencies? It seems likely that beta versions of Yahweh had to argue within a polytheistic milieu, even if the text as we have it is past that point.

It carries a redaction history, yes. But none of the textual variants we do possess suggests radical rather than judicious editing, and any textual variants we don't possess are, by definition, outside the scope of what we can assert. We can't argue from silence that the text once affirmed actual polytheism with an alpha god, and no evidence supports that speculation.

To put that point another way: we can see evidence of where and how the text has changed; that doesn't mean we can assert without evidence that it has changed in any old way we imagine!

Indeed, I think it's fair to say, as I hope you'll agree, that monotheism is the idea perhaps most strongly associated with the faith of Abraham.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, but in your example, my hypothetical wife is an actual woman and for some reason she's forbid me from having imaginary women before her. It is not reasonable for her to treat those women as actual women, in that when she says "I forbid you from loving any other women before me" it's clear she is referring to physical women, not women in my or someone else's imagination. That would require a rider on the contract.

If I tell my wife she can have no other man but me, it is not intuitively obvious that I mean to include Jacob from Twilight, because why would I include him if he didn't actually exist and is no threat to me?

I follow your line of thought, and perhaps the original texts were not written as they are popularly translated today. *shrug*.

[Grundbegriff]

Yeah, but in your example, my hypothetical wife is an actual woman and for some reason she's forbid me from having imaginary women before her. It is not reasonable for her to treat those women as actual women, in that when she says "I forbid you from loving any other women before me" it's clear she is referring to physical women, not women in my or someone else's imagination. That would require a rider on the contract.

You're only a step away from getting it right.

The Torah doesn't mean something like "I'm an actual woman, and you shall have no other actual woman before me." Instead, it means something like, "I'm the unique and only actual woman, and (for that very reason) you shall have no other apparent woman before me."

If I tell my wife she can have no other man but me, it is not intuitively obvious that I mean to include Jacob from Twilight, because why would I include him if he didn't actually exist and is no threat to me?

The fact that he's virtual rather than actual doesn't entail that he poses no threat to you. Many wives preferred Rhett Butler over their actual husbands. Some acted accordingly.

You're assuming (correctly) that you are an instance of a class with multiple members (e.g., Jacob, other human males, ...)
You're assuming (inccorectly) that God in the Torah is also an instance of a class with multiple members. But the text goes way out of its way to assert otherwise.

I follow your line of thought, and perhaps the original texts were not written as they are popularly translated today. *shrug*.

I think you're probably just hung up on semantics. I hope this post and the preceding one will help you over the hump.