Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[Zaxxon]

This one time, at band camp, I plugged into a 15A 120V outlet on a road trip. In over 70 hours charging across 5 nights at our destination, I only got 200 measly miles of range back. BEVs are clearly not road-trippable.

[Kasey Chang]

Hours at each place, lol. Just stop, Kasey. You clearly don't know what you're talking about here.

Fine, 90 minutes, if you find one of the higher level chargers... provided someone else isn't using it, it's working, it takes YOUR payment card, and not blocked by some truckbro who decided to ICE the charger.

Or someone who just randomly decided to come and unplug you (though I do understand most Tesla plugs are locking).

[Zaxxon]

No, not 90 minutes, either. I can count one hand the number of times it's been even 60 minutes, out of literal hundreds of DCFC sessions. 30 minutes is high.

Believe me, as you can see across the history of this thread, I'm all for explaining how much better Tesla's network is, but your descriptions are selling even Electrify America short. There are issues on the other networks, and you might find yourself waiting to charge sometimes, but it's not as prevalent as you make it sound. Not by a long shot.

[Kasey Chang]

I think it also depends on the vehicle. Some vehicles don't take to high amperage charging, low-end of Level 2, even though they're sold as Level 2 capable vehicles. I don't think we're that far apart, and yes, I'm a bit more pessimistic about the future of BEVs.

[stessier]

I think it also depends on the vehicle. Some vehicles don't take to high amperage charging, low-end of Level 2, even though they're sold as Level 2 capable vehicles. I don't think we're that far apart, and yes, I'm a bit more pessimistic about the future of BEVs.

You're really only talking about the Bolt and the Leaf. Even then the Bolt can go from 10%-80% in 45 minutes and charges at 50 kW - which is so low that every other car will unplug and try to find a better charger. I've never driven a Leaf, but given the unique connector, I'd never be brave enough to road trip it.

The Mach E charges up to 150 kW and when I've road tripped it, the only time I stop for more than 30 minutes is when we are eating and the food takes longer than that. And by newer car standards, even 150 kW is slow.

[Kraken]

We're going to need a new car within the next year. Probably will be the last new car we ever buy, so it needs to last 10+ years (like all of our other cars). I'd like to go electric and will see what's available when we're ready to shop. But right now, my impression is that there aren't a whole lot of models to chose from, they're wicked expensive, and the technology isn't quite mature yet -- battery advances are still coming pretty regularly and I'd worry about my 2024 model being obsolete by 2035. Add that to the confusion about various charging types and their spotty availability, and...I just dunno if we'll be ready to make that leap. I'm open to the possibility, though. I want an EV. Just not convinced that they're really ready for prime time yet.

[em2nought]

I want an EV. Just not convinced that they're really ready for prime time yet.

Especially if you eventually move yourself out to the boondocks for the farm life.

[Kraken]

I want an EV. Just not convinced that they're really ready for prime time yet.

Especially if you eventually move yourself out to the boondocks for the farm life.

Yeah, where we live will define what kind of car/truck we need We're probably going to be rural, but there's no scenario where we're far from civilization.

Here's a possibly naive question: Are all EVs 4WD/AWD? (Because why wouldn't they be?)

[coopasonic]

I want an EV. Just not convinced that they're really ready for prime time yet.

Especially if you eventually move yourself out to the boondocks for the farm life.

Yeah, where we live will define what kind of car/truck we need We're probably going to be rural, but there's no scenario where we're far from civilization.

Here's a possibly naive question: Are all EVs 4WD/AWD? (Because why wouldn't they be?)

No.

Why? Because 1 motor is cheaper than 2 and AWD is hardly necessary.

[Kraken]

I want an EV. Just not convinced that they're really ready for prime time yet.

Especially if you eventually move yourself out to the boondocks for the farm life.

Yeah, where we live will define what kind of car/truck we need We're probably going to be rural, but there's no scenario where we're far from civilization.

Here's a possibly naive question: Are all EVs 4WD/AWD? (Because why wouldn't they be?)

No.

Why? Because 1 motor is cheaper than 2 and AWD is hardly necessary.

Then that will further narrow the range of EVs we can consider. We're going to be living amidst mountains, and it snows there.

[Zaxxon]

I want an EV. Just not convinced that they're really ready for prime time yet.

Especially if you eventually move yourself out to the boondocks for the farm life.

Yeah, where we live will define what kind of car/truck we need We're probably going to be rural, but there's no scenario where we're far from civilization.

Here's a possibly naive question: Are all EVs 4WD/AWD? (Because why wouldn't they be?)

No.

Why? Because 1 motor is cheaper than 2 and AWD is hardly necessary.

Then that will further narrow the range of EVs we can consider. We're going to be living amidst mountains, and it snows there.

Not all are AWD, but many are. Speaking as someone who lives amidst rather large mountains, AWD from electric motors is teh bomb, y'all.

[The Meal]

On the home stretch last night :"This was our best road trip ever." "I totally agree."

Repost for Kasey’s Krazy Hot Take.

[GreenGoo]

No.

Why? Because 1 motor is cheaper than 2 and AWD is hardly necessary.

I am super excited to get AWD when I buy my next car. Necessary? No. But we do have the occasional snow storm here and AWD helps.

Not all are AWD, but many are. Speaking as someone who lives amidst rather large mountains, AWD from electric motors is teh bomb, y'all.

Yes. I'd say that more EVs are available in AWD than ICE versions. I will definitely be getting AWD and most, if not all EVs have an AWD version.

I'd also mention that Kraken does not appear to be a roamer. Unless that changes he's going to be charging at home 99% of the time, which will be more than enough for trips into town and back.

[stessier]

It should also be noted that EVs are significantly heavier than their ICE counterparts which can help even the one motor versions do well in inclement weather.

Also, the Berkshires has a surprising number of Level 3 chargers being installed and plenty once you get an hour away in any direction.

[Zaxxon]

I'd also mention that Kraken does not appear to be a roamer. Unless that changes he's going to be charging at home 99% of the time, which will be more than enough for trips into town and back.

I almost brought this up earlier, in a response to Kraken's comments about the BEV space still being very much under rapid development. While I agree with that, I'm not sure how relevant it is in these specific circumstances. If you're going to buy a car, and today's specs easily meet your requirements, and you plan to keep that car for a long time (which I believe Kraken does), then what advancements happen in the next several years are largely immaterial.

If you're buying to hold for a couple years and then resell, that's a different story.

[telcta]

We visited the Bershires for the first time last year and the Marriott we stayed at had a couple of free chargers and across the street was a bank of Tesla superchargers that weren't completed. It was nice seeing all the options in that remote area for charging.

I'd suggest Kraken get the Ford F-150 Lightning so he can power his house in case of an outage. Although the Ford is a lot larger than a Miata.

[Zaxxon]

I'd suggest Kraken get the Ford F-150 Lightning so he can power his house in case of an outage. Although the Ford is a lot larger than a Miata.

That would be a hilarious transformation, and pics of the old and new vehicle next to one another would of course be required.

[The Meal]

I'd suggest Kraken get the Ford F-150 Lightning so he can power his house in case of an outage. Although the Ford is a lot larger than a Miata.

Q: when would I be most uncomfortable emptying the battery of my EV?
A: when the power was out at my home.

Initially I liked that option from the Lightning (though it also requires a pretty extensive installation of their charger, power a Lightning owner I spent a few days with in October), but that trick really seems geared towards running tools at a job site.

[stessier]

I'd suggest Kraken get the Ford F-150 Lightning so he can power his house in case of an outage. Although the Ford is a lot larger than a Miata.

Q: when would I be most uncomfortable emptying the battery of my EV?
A: when the power was out at my home.

Initially I liked that option from the Lightning (though it also requires a pretty extensive installation of their charger, power a Lightning owner I spent a few days with in October), but that trick really seems geared towards running tools at a job site.

It comes with the option to set a buffer that it won't eat into. So you could set it to 30% and use it to that point.

[Kraken]

I'd suggest Kraken get the Ford F-150 Lightning so he can power his house in case of an outage. Although the Ford is a lot larger than a Miata.

That would be a hilarious transformation, and pics of the old and new vehicle next to one another would of course be required.

Oh, I'll be keeping my Miata. We need to replace Wife's 14-year-old Fit, which is our practical car. And she does take long road trips once a month or so. She's in the Berks right now (150 miles away) and intends to make regular trips back to Boston after we move.

Berkshire County is a lefty/liberal area with a lot of money, so it doesn't surprise me that charging stations are common out there. Used to be a lot of Priuses, now it's Teslas everywhere.

[mori]

https://youtu.be/8P95NFlAnmY?si=U5Lvuls7Z0G5K77-

Be interested on what you have to say about his take on EVs and the future.

[Zaxxon]

Tl;dw?

[mori]

He is basically arguing that BEVs are carbon monsters because of the exotic raw materials needed to manufacture, and that green energy is not used when you charge the vehicle. Also goes on about not having enough raw materials to bring BEV to a national level. Then the electrical infrastructure in the US is from the 1950s and cannot support a national BEV fleet and it will take decades to get it to that level. I think that is an accurate paraphrase. He also goes on to say that they simply don't sell and most manufacturers are pulling back plans to expand electric vehicle development and manufacture.

[Zaxxon]

All of those ideas have been debunked time and again. They still persist with alarming frequency, though.

[malchior]

Zeihan wrote two books that prominently talk about the importance of the US/Canadian shale oil industry. It's not a huge surprise he is spreading disinformation like this.

Edit: Just watched the video and it's...disappointing. It's crazy to talk about the slowdown in EV plans without considering the interest rate environment/cost of money. Also, he talks about the present state clean energy mix like it's static forever and not like we've only started a huge investment in green energy. Even if I did not think he has an agenda it's an analysis with some serious gaps.

I mean then he talks about how he thinks it'd take a century to scale up industry for the materials. Ok. I sort of tuned out after that statement to be honest so maybe he said something smart but I doubt it as he started talking about high costs, range anxiety, and charging stations. It's mostly re-hashed bullshit.

[em2nought]

I'd also mention that Kraken does not appear to be a roamer. Unless that changes he's going to be charging at home 99% of the time, which will be more than enough for trips into town and back.

How do we know he doesn't take that Miata to the Tale of the Dragon? I think I would.

[mori]

I was just curious as Zeihan does have his psychophants that will beat down any dissent with his teachings. But I do have serious concerns about the energy infrastructure in the US.

[gbasden]

No, not 90 minutes, either. I can count one hand the number of times it's been even 60 minutes, out of literal hundreds of DCFC sessions. 30 minutes is high.

Believe me, as you can see across the history of this thread, I'm all for explaining how much better Tesla's network is, but your descriptions are selling even Electrify America short. There are issues on the other networks, and you might find yourself waiting to charge sometimes, but it's not as prevalent as you make it sound. Not by a long shot.

I just fast charged at an EA station a few days ago, and 20%-80% was done in a half hour. Painlessly.

[Kraken]

Zeihan does have his psychophants

If you changed sycophants to psychophants deliberately, I like it. And if you didn't, it's my job to scold you.

[Kraken]

No, not 90 minutes, either. I can count one hand the number of times it's been even 60 minutes, out of literal hundreds of DCFC sessions. 30 minutes is high.

Believe me, as you can see across the history of this thread, I'm all for explaining how much better Tesla's network is, but your descriptions are selling even Electrify America short. There are issues on the other networks, and you might find yourself waiting to charge sometimes, but it's not as prevalent as you make it sound. Not by a long shot.

I just fast charged at an EA station a few days ago, and 20%-80% was done in a half hour. Painlessly.

A dino burner can go from 0-100% in under 10 minutes, so that's not painless on our scale. We Luddites don't want to spend half an hour filling up.

[The Meal]

A half-hour is pretty far outside the norm, based on my road-tripping. (Details of that experience are linked above.) And over the months I don’t spend road-tripping, well… We Sparkies don’t want to spend _any time_ filling up.

[Zaxxon]

I put the math somewhere way back in this thread or another, but I calculated that even if you do 5k miles road-tripping in a (competent) BEV each year like I do, you still spend less time fueling up over the course of a year in an EV vs a gas car.

And less money, too.

[coopasonic]

Yeah don't forget the fact I have NEVER waited fueling my BEV up. Literally zero time waiting. Balance that against the odd get out and walk around during a road trip and it shouldn't seem that bad. My wife has to make sure she leaves time to get gas before some event. How about you take my car honey?

Bonus, I have very close to never touched a fueling device handle that someone else has used in the process of fueling my BEV.

[GreenGoo]

All of those ideas have been debunked time and again. They still persist with alarming frequency, though.

This. I come across these videos semi-regularly, and the comments are filled with exclamations about how the batteries are rare and exotic materials requiring mining. Because fossils just bubble to the surface and convert themselves into fuel that you can then turn on a faucet to access for free. It's mind boggling.

Power grids are some of the most efficient ways of powering anything, and despite still using coal in many places, are heavily augmented by wind and hydro-electric, with future expansion being more and more green.

I'm not an expert on any of this, but even the most rudimentary investigation of the two types of power shows some obvious differences that make these videos nonsense. I don't look for EV vs Gasoline, I look for electric grid vs fossil fuels (and yes coal is a fossil fuel so it impacts both sides of the equation).

[Zaxxon]

All of those ideas have been debunked time and again. They still persist with alarming frequency, though.

This. I come across these videos semi-regularly, and the comments are filled with exclamations about how the batteries are rare and exotic materials requiring mining. Because fossils just bubble to the surface and convert themselves into fuel that you can then turn on a faucet to access for free. It's mind boggling.

And the logic errors are compounded, since even if this were true, fossil fuels are dug up, refined, distributed, consumed, and then effectively gone forever. The components that make up BEV batteries will [likely]* be recycled again and again, and used for the next several decades at minimum.

* - I say 'likely' here, even though I view it as 'certainly,' since we're still in early days of BEV battery recycling.

[stessier]

In case anyone wants to see more about recycling, I thought these vids were pretty good. First one describes how to get the black mass. Second explains what to do with the black mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xrarUWVRQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H85oUBsvBN8

[GreenGoo]

First one describes how to get the black mass. Second explains what to do with the black mass.

This will never work in America. Christianity is too embedded in our culture.

[stessier]

First one describes how to get the black mass. Second explains what to do with the black mass.

This will never work in America. Christianity is too embedded in our culture.

*rimshot*

[GreenGoo]

*rimshot*

It's ok. You can boo if you want to.

[gbasden]

A dino burner can go from 0-100% in under 10 minutes, so that's not painless on our scale. We Luddites don't want to spend half an hour filling up.

I charge 95% of the time at home and rarely have to use a public charger. I have saved so much time not having to fuel a car that the extra few minutes when I do fast charge hardly put a dent in it.