Octopus Overlords

Remus West wrote: If you speak of working to solve an issue but then decline to participate in the simplest manner I reserve the right to no longer respect you.

Yawn. His simple act of taking a knee created a national discussion of the reasons he was taking that knee (and a separate sidebar discussion of the merits of knee taking).

THAT is a far bigger step to making social change than voting ever would. Don't you read these forums? Don't you vote? An absolutely TINY percentage of votes matter. If you're not in a swing state, no one, not even the system, gives a shit about who you voted for or what you think.

Voting is the LEAST effective way to make social change, especially in a two party system like in the US. Especially when the social change is not inherently political. It's not like the GOP is running on a "more racial injustice via cops" platform while the Dems are running a "less racial injustice via cops" platform.

I get it. Voting. It's important. See: South Park Turd Sandwich vs Giant Douche for the realities of your system. With that said I actually agree that it is important. But come on, the reality is that only a tiny number of votes in specific geographical locations matter. Dismissing someone who brought attention and almost single handedly created a national discussion about racial inequality at the cop level, is asinine.

Unbelievably narrow minded and ... naive, I guess. Simplistic, maybe.

Remus West wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:

msteelers wrote:

Remus West wrote:On a side note, Kapernick lost all credibility to me when he admitted he did not even vote.

I agree with this. I lost respect for Kaepernick because he didn't vote.

If he feels that neither party has his best interests in mind, why on earth would he think voting was a way to effect meaningful change? I mean, WE have had conversations where the difference between parties is blurred until you can't tell the difference.

Is volunteering twice a week at a soup kitchen/homeless shelter a better or worse way to impact social change than pulling a lever? When you have a national audience, you don't think addressing that audience would have enormously more impact than anonymously writing someone's name down? If he voted and kept his mouth shut, would we even know who he is or what he thinks? Would the Drumpf have decided to criticize his voting habits? Would the entire NFL have defied Drumpf because of a lever that was pulled?

I've never heard such an asinine reason for dismissing a person out of hand.

Sure, yes, I completely agree that he should vote. Spoil your ballot at a minimum. But the idea that what he says is less than meaningless because he doesn't participate in the election process is bunk. If you haven't noticed, the election process seems to be experiencing some challenges that aren't going to be addressed with a larger turnout.

If you speak of working to solve an issue but then decline to participate in the simplest manner I reserve the right to no longer respect you. I still respect the need for change - something I did well before he began kneeling - but I simply view his protest as meaningless grandstanding rather than any true effort to effect change. Removing yourself from participating in the nation does nothing to attempt to fix the challenges facing it.

He has a hell of a lot more impact and (peaceful) potential to affect change by kneeling than he does by voting.

It would have been one thing if Kaepernick had said that there was nobody who he believed would make things better. But that's not what he said. What he said was incredible stupid.

"I think it would be hypocritical of me to vote," Kaepernick said. "I'd said from the beginning I was against oppression, I was against a system of oppression. I'm not going to show support for that system. And, to me, the oppressor isn't going to allow you to vote your way out of your oppression."

That's dumb, and will never bring about the change he wants.

Martin Luther King wrote:Voting is the foundation stone for political action. The basic elements so vital to Negro advancement can only be achieved by seeking redress from government at local, state and Federal levels. To do this the vote is essential.

President Lyndon B. Johnson wrote:The vote is the most powerful instrument ever devised by man for breaking down injustice and destroying the terrible walls which imprison men because they are different from other men.

LawBeefaroni wrote: He has a hell of a lot more impact and (peaceful) potential to affect change by kneeling than he does by voting.

Thank.

You.

People should ABSOLUTELY vote. No question. But it's not a magical solution. Its only been a couple of generations since he was even allowed to vote. Meanwhile in plenty of locations gerrymandering is hard at work ensuring that his vote is worthless.

Defiant wrote:

Of freakin' course both. That goes without saying.

msteelers wrote:It would have been one thing if Kaepernick had said that there was nobody who he believed would make things better. But that's not what he said. What he said was incredible stupid.

"I think it would be hypocritical of me to vote," Kaepernick said. "I'd said from the beginning I was against oppression, I was against a system of oppression. I'm not going to show support for that system. And, to me, the oppressor isn't going to allow you to vote your way out of your oppression."

That's dumb, and will never bring about the change he wants.

Sometimes you need a Malcolm X (and yes I'm aware he renounced his activities with the NoI later in life) before a Martin Luther King. Or sometimes you just need to approach the problem from a different angle, because the current angle isn't working. I'm not 100% behind Kaepernick's thoughts on this matter, but I do respect his approach, and I think people who have no respect for him because of the stated reason that he doesn't vote, are missing the point.

I guess there's some minorities who get a pass from the Mangerine when it comes to protesting.

Although I bet the real reason is he had no clue as to Ali's past with protesting and sports. It's been well established that the orange one isn't terribly bright and really hates to read.

What's really weird is that Ali called him out (if not by name) in 2015. How Drumpf let that go and didn't form a life long grudge that kept him up at night is beyond me.

Muhammad Ali comments.

GreenGoo wrote:I'm not 100% behind Kaepernick's thoughts on this matter, but I do respect his approach, and I think people who have no respect for him because of the stated reason that he doesn't vote, are missing the point.

I can agree with Kaepernick's argument and support his protest while also thinking he is an idiot and wrong for not voting.

It sounds like the issue here is that you and I have different opinions on the importance of voting. That's fine, and not a conversation I'm all that interested in having. Not in this thread anyway.

GreenGoo wrote:Dismissing someone who brought attention and almost single handedly created a national discussion about racial inequality at the cop level, is asinine.

Except that is all crap. He did not do that single handedly. Black Lives Matter had already brought the issue forward. Plenty of people were already discussing it. Understand that I do not dismiss him because he did nothing. I agree he drew more attention to it. I am fine with his chosen protest. Kneeling doesn't offend me in the least. I'm not fine with his protest combined with inaction. He made himself a national figure then chose to do less than nothing. Has he been a leader in any efforts to get things changed? Nope. Literally all he has done is take a knee in all things. Had he shown up at protests to support people impacted by the injustice he sees maybe I'd have a different opinion but right now all I see from him is nothing but other people complaining he doesn't have a job in the NFL and they seem to forget that he opted out of his contract.

Remus West wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:Dismissing someone who brought attention and almost single handedly created a national discussion about racial inequality at the cop level, is asinine.

Except that is all crap. He did not do that single handedly. Black Lives Matter had already brought the issue forward. Plenty of people were already discussing it. Understand that I do not dismiss him because he did nothing. I agree he drew more attention to it. I am fine with his chosen protest. Kneeling doesn't offend me in the least. I'm not fine with his protest combined with inaction. He made himself a national figure then chose to do less than nothing. Has he been a leader in any efforts to get things changed? Nope. Literally all he has done is take a knee in all things. Had he shown up at protests to support people impacted by the injustice he sees maybe I'd have a different opinion but right now all I see from him is nothing but other people complaining he doesn't have a job in the NFL and they seem to forget that he opted out of his contract.

Oh, yeah, no, voting totally would have been more effective than all that, and certainly more deserving of respect. Making himself the target of every racist asshat in the country was a pussy move. Voting, that's an effective way to reduce the number of blacks unjustly killed by cops.

How in the hell do you even affect that kind of change through voting?

Listen, you've already said that not voting means no respect, and msteeler has called his position dumb. I think that's an idiotic stance to take. I think we're done.

I haven't followed the story closely, but I don't think Kaepernick has done nothing but kneel.

From what I've read incidentally, he has thrown himself into activism with both his money and his time.

Obviously I agree he should have voted. He should definitely do so and encourage others to do so in the future, especially because his example is so visible now.

GreenGoo wrote:msteeler has called his position dumb

I have not said this. I said his stated reasons for not voting are dumb.

Isgrimnur wrote:

stessier wrote:There is a sports bar here that decided today to no longer show NFL games until "the players stop disrespecting the flag and our country." Should make it a lot easier to get into on Sundays.

If you want to support that kind of behavior. They have every right to to make that decision. And I'm sure their customers will be more than willing to let them know if the market supports them in it.

I'm in South Carolina. I'm surprised this is the first place that has tried it.

Just to be clear, I think they are nuts.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

stessier wrote:There is a sports bar here that decided today to no longer show NFL games until "the players stop disrespecting the flag and our country." Should make it a lot easier to get into on Sundays.

Yeah, especially once their revenue drops by 40%. It won't last. Fortunately for them it's a vague enough target so they can be back to showing games in a week or so.

Yeah, I'm not sure how much their revenue was from the games. I'm wondering if it will drop, though. Places are relatively crowded after church around here and so knowing that a place won't have football on might make it a bit more attractive for some for non-football reasons.

Remus West wrote:Had he shown up at protests to support people impacted by the injustice he sees maybe I'd have a different opinion but right now all I see from him is nothing but other people complaining he doesn't have a job in the NFL and they seem to forget that he opted out of his contract.

Well, granted, the 49ers GM confirmed that if Kaepernick hadn't opted out, he would have been released anyway.

I understand that to many people - including Kaepernick - voting may have seemed as a pointless exercise if he didn't like either candidate. However, if you want to promote change, you have to participate in the process, and if you think that a symbolic gesture of taking the knee is significant - then just suck it up and pull the lever (and consider it another symbolic gesture). U.S. already has one of the lowest voter turnouts in the developed world, and the turnout in the last election was atrocious, considering how much was on the line.

What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

America knew racism existed in 1968. Are you saying Tommie Smith and John Carlos were wasting their time with ridiculous protests?

msteelers wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:msteeler has called his position dumb

I have not said this. I said his stated reasons for not voting are dumb.

My apologies, sincerely. If it helps, I meant it as "his position for not voting". It's on me that I wasn't clear, and to make matters worse, it was more easily understood as you did than as I meant it.

hepcat wrote:

Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

America knew racism existed in 1968. Are you saying Tommie Smith and John Carlos were wasting their time with ridiculous protests?

Is there a list of policy changes these anthem protesters are asking for? I'm asking, what is the point of their protests? What specific things do they want to see happen?

Holman wrote:I haven't followed the story closely, but I don't think Kaepernick has done nothing but kneel.

From what I've read incidentally, he has thrown himself into activism with both his money and his time.

Obviously I agree he should have voted. He should definitely do so and encourage others to do so in the future, especially because his example is so visible now.

Yeah, "attention whore" is definitely not fair. He was kneeling for sometime before it became a story. He didn't ask for the attention, but once given, he didn't shy away from it. He's contributed more than $1 million to causes and has volunteered at several non-profits. He's also very young - only 29. I have trouble blaming anyone in their 20s if they don't always express themselves as clearly as one might hope.

Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

Stop murdering his brethren during traffic stops?

I think that would put an end to most of these protests. The goal of which, seemingly, is to bring national attention to the fact that cops are murdering black people is disproportionate numbers to the other races that they murder.

So the point of the protest is to remind us that cops are murdering black people semi-regularly. To goal of that reminder, is hopefully getting them to stop.

How is this even a question? What is the confusing part? If your actions are not the direct and immediate cause of the solution to your problem, it is irrelevant? This is like the opposite of the Voting argument. Vote or nothing you say matters. Take specific, directed action to fix the problem or nothing you say matters.

That's not how humans work (both for affecting change or being influenced to change), if history is any judge.

Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

To have these discussions? Change doesn't happen all at once and minds aren't changed overnight.

GreenGoo wrote:

Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

Stop murdering his brethren during traffic stops?

I think that would put an end to most of these protests. The goal of which, seemingly, is to bring national attention to the fact that cops are murdering black people is disproportionate numbers to the other races that they murder.

So the point of the protest is to remind us that cops are murdering black people semi-regularly. To goal of that reminder, is hopefully getting them to stop.

That is what Kaepernick originally started protesting, but the event has evolved as more people got involved. A large portion now (as evidenced by the players who spoke out this weekend) is that inequality remains rampant and should be addressed. Also a fair number of comments that our president is part of the problem rather than helping bring us together.

Moliere wrote: Is there a list of policy changes these anthem protesters are asking for? I'm asking, what is the point of their protests? What specific things do they want to see happen?

I'm curious what policy changes you think would stop the murdering? How would you phrase it?

It's ALREADY against policy to murder people. I don't think policy is the problem.

Stop murdering people who look like me more often than you murder people who look like other races. Kthxbye.

I think that pretty much covers it.

Howie Long breaks it down.

Standing for the anthem is something I would not choose to do, but I fully support the right to do it. That being said, what’s being lost in the criticism of the form of the protest is the message of inequality. Put it in perspective: As a white father having raised three boys, there were a million things to worry about on a daily basis. But it’s impossible for me to understand the challenges that an African-American father faces at every turn while raising his children. But in a league that is comprised of 70% African-American players, if you’re a white player in an NFL locker room, that puts you in a position to try to better understand those struggles, and, subsequently as we have seen, show your support for your teammates in your own way. Understanding starts with a dialogue, and the most important part of dialogue is to listen.

So no, there is no list of demands. Mainly because no one is being held hostage by this protest. But with the increased coverage that cell phones and other personal recording devices afford us, we're seeing just how prevalent police violence against minorities is. So I would equivocate Kaepernick's protests with those of the aforemented 1968 Olympics, as well as the protest actions of Ali.

I do think it's stupid of him not to exercise his right to vote though. If anything, it shows a younger generation that they do have a voice. They just need to use it.

stessier wrote: That is what Kaepernick originally started protesting, but the event has evolved as more people got involved. A large portion now (as evidenced by the players who spoke out this weekend) is that inequality remains rampant and should be addressed. Also a fair number of comments that our president is part of the problem rather than helping bring us together.

I don't see murdering a certain percentage of the population more often than the rest as a separate issue from equality, but if they want to co-opt it into a more general equality drive, have at it.

I'm white. My lot in life is already covered.

Moliere wrote:

hepcat wrote:

Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?

America knew racism existed in 1968. Are you saying Tommie Smith and John Carlos were wasting their time with ridiculous protests?

Is there a list of policy changes these anthem protesters are asking for? I'm asking, what is the point of their protests? What specific things do they want to see happen?

It's just an escalation of the racial justice protests initiated by Kaepernick (at least, I think he was the first to make it a thing). Trump randomly decided to shitpost about players taking a knee during the anthem, and a lot of the players decided to tell him to fuck off. Do they really need to draft a political manifesto to go along with that?

hepcat wrote:
I do think it's stupid of him not to exercise his right to vote though.

for the record, me too. Which could be inferred from my earlier words. I attacked voting because I feel the idea that a person's respect hinges on their voting or not to be somewhat...myopic, in nature.

Voting is an equalizer. That doesn't mean that it is the most effective way to change things, even in the voting booth. Someone with enough money or fame can vote thousands of times without pulling the lever.

Granted espousing the "I don't vote" stance is counter productive and Kaepernick most certainly would have a better foundation to his protest if he voted but not voting is his right as much as voting is. With over 40% of eligible voters doing the same thing even in 2016 he's certainly representing a sizable portion of the country.

There is this strange idea that not voting removes a person's right to have an opinion/criticize/whatever. I've never understood it. Does an ex-con lose any future right to take issue with the way he is treated because the state has removed his right to vote despite having "paid his debt to society" (I realize there are some who would say yes to this question)? Are teenagers attempts to affect change meaningless or unworthy of respect until they hit age of majority? Voting is just one way of affecting change.

Voting is AWESOME. It's the foundation of democracy, which is AWESOME. In some ways it is a super awesome mega weapon against tyranny. But not all ways.

GreenGoo wrote:There is this strange idea that not voting removes a person's right to have an opinion/criticize/whatever. I've never understood it. Does an ex-con lose any future right to take issue with the way he is treated because the state has removed his right to vote despite having "paid his debt to society" (I realize there are some who would say yes to this question)? Are teenagers attempts to affect change meaningless or unworthy of respect until they hit age of majority? Voting is just one way of affecting change.

Do not conflate not being able to vote and choosing not to vote.

gilraen wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:There is this strange idea that not voting removes a person's right to have an opinion/criticize/whatever. I've never understood it. Does an ex-con lose any future right to take issue with the way he is treated because the state has removed his right to vote despite having "paid his debt to society" (I realize there are some who would say yes to this question)? Are teenagers attempts to affect change meaningless or unworthy of respect until they hit age of majority? Voting is just one way of affecting change.

Do not conflate not being able to vote and choosing not to vote.

Fair enough, I stand admonished.

I'm still confused how anyone's opinion of someone can hinge on whether they voted or not. I get that it can influence it, sure, I guess I'm just confused by the scale of it's influence for some people.

Here's one. If I go in and vote (or mail in my ballot), but leave a particular race blank, can I still stake out a portion on that particular office or those candidates? Or have I forfeited the right to have a valid criticism of them?

I mean I've gone through the effort of showing up but have decided, for whatever reason, not to cast a vote for that race. Is showing effort the difference?

And how about someone who does no research and just goes straight party line regardless of the candidate?

GreenGoo wrote:

Remus West wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:Dismissing someone who brought attention and almost single handedly created a national discussion about racial inequality at the cop level, is asinine.

Except that is all crap. He did not do that single handedly. Black Lives Matter had already brought the issue forward. Plenty of people were already discussing it. Understand that I do not dismiss him because he did nothing. I agree he drew more attention to it. I am fine with his chosen protest. Kneeling doesn't offend me in the least. I'm not fine with his protest combined with inaction. He made himself a national figure then chose to do less than nothing. Has he been a leader in any efforts to get things changed? Nope. Literally all he has done is take a knee in all things. Had he shown up at protests to support people impacted by the injustice he sees maybe I'd have a different opinion but right now all I see from him is nothing but other people complaining he doesn't have a job in the NFL and they seem to forget that he opted out of his contract.

Oh, yeah, no, voting totally would have been more effective than all that, and certainly more deserving of respect. Making himself the target of every racist asshat in the country was a pussy move. Voting, that's an effective way to reduce the number of blacks unjustly killed by cops.

How in the hell do you even affect that kind of change through voting?

You certainly do not do it by standing aside while a known racist is elected. Or making yourself into a public figure whose actions may cause an even greater portion of a population already under represented to become voluntarily disenfranchised.

Listen, you've already said that not voting means no respect, and msteeler has called his position dumb. I think that's an idiotic stance to take. I think we're done.

Allow me to clarify. If he wanted to not vote and not protest then I have no issue with it. I simply feel that by making himself a topic of conversation in that way he becomes responsible to encourage folks to also engage in whatever manner they can. Voting is a manner everyone should (should not can, I'm aware of the efforts to diminish voting which is part of the reason this pisses me off so much) be able to engage in. Too many of the folks that will follow his lead do not have access to a million dollars to give away or custom suits to donate so they will follow his lead the only way they can and that way hurts them.

We need more political engagement from minorities not less.

GreenGoo wrote:I'm still confused how anyone's opinion of someone can hinge on whether they voted or not. I get that it can influence it, sure, I guess I'm just confused by the scale of it's influence for some people.

Hopefully addressed this above but to me it is not the act of a private person not voting that pisses me off but the act of someone who places themselves into the political arena of activism then publicly opting to not vote because it discourages others as well. His choice to not vote may have meant a few thousand people around the nation also choose to do so in the future. This past election that may have made a difference (iirc he didn't say anything until after this last election though so his impact there would be minimal).

LawBeefaroni wrote:Here's one. If I go in and vote (or mail in my ballot), but leave a particular race blank, can I still stake out a portion on that particular office or those candidates? Or have I forfeited the right to have a valid criticism of them?

I mean I've gone through the effort of showing up but have decided, for whatever reason, not to cast a vote for that race. Is showing effort the difference?

And how about someone who does no research and just goes straight party line regardless of the candidate?

Are you an activist? If not then whatever. If you're going to blow the horn for action and then bow out of that simple act then yes, you lose the right to criticize the result of that election imo.

You can still criticize - valid or not - but your words carry less weight because there is no effort to fix the issue. You become a guy standing in the rain complaining of being wet without moving to shelter or trying to open an umbrella. If you care enough to note a problem then you ought to attempt to be part of the solution.

Remus West wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:Here's one. If I go in and vote (or mail in my ballot), but leave a particular race blank, can I still stake out a portion on that particular office or those candidates? Or have I forfeited the right to have a valid criticism of them?

I mean I've gone through the effort of showing up but have decided, for whatever reason, not to cast a vote for that race. Is showing effort the difference?

And how about someone who does no research and just goes straight party line regardless of the candidate?

Are you an activist? If not then whatever. If you're going to blow the horn for action and then bow out of that simple act then yes, you lose the right to criticize the result of that election imo.

You can still criticize - valid or not - but your words carry less weight because there is no effort to fix the issue. You become a guy standing in the rain complaining of being wet without moving to shelter or trying to open an umbrella. If you care enough to note a problem then you ought to attempt to be part of the solution.

I understand your point and certainly agree that discouraging people from voting is a bad thing.

However, "do as I say, not as I do" is kind of a foundation of American politics. Kaepernick's stance and comments do benefit his cause IMO. At the very least it gets the discussion of voting (or not) going.

Steelers offensive tackle Alejandro Villanueva is being lauded for his patriotism by some groups after the U.S. Army veteran chose not to stand with his teammates in the tunnel during the national anthem and instead take the field.

That decision is already having a major impact — on his jersey sales. Overnight the obscure offensive lineman went from the depths of Steelers’ jersey sales to its No. 1 seller in the men’s and women’s categories on both Fanatics.com and NFLShop.com. It’s also the No. 2 youth jersey on both sites behind Antonio Brown.

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/9/ ... sey-anthem

Awesome. How are the jersey sales of all the other patriots (I use this unironically) who chose to stand during the anthem?

Surely he wasn't the only one who chose to stand on Sunday? More importantly though, than kneeling or standing, did he vote?