The Former Trump Presidency Thread

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:59 pm

I think, in order for msteeler and remus's position to hold any sway with someone like Kaepernick is that you have to have faith in the system in order to utilize it to make change. Right or wrong, it seems like Kaepernick (and many, many others if this year is any indication) has no faith in the system. What's the point in voting if you "know" it's only gonna be the GOP serving their corporate overlords or the Dems paying lipservice to equality while filling their pockets.

I'm not saying he's right, but that doesn't change the fact that it seems like that's what he believes. And it's not particularly rare to hear other people of colour state that opinion outright.

Disenfranchisement is a dangerous thing when it hits that level. Telling the disenfranchised to vote is all well and good, but I doubt it's likely to sway their already wounded outlooks much.

Telling the disenfranchised to be more franchised is a questionable approach to the problem.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:08 pm

Dang, yo. How much coffee have you had today?

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:12 pm

Rip wrote:
Steelers offensive tackle Alejandro Villanueva is being lauded for his patriotism by some groups after the U.S. Army veteran chose not to stand with his teammates in the tunnel during the national anthem and instead take the field.

That decision is already having a major impact — on his jersey sales. Overnight the obscure offensive lineman went from the depths of Steelers’ jersey sales to its No. 1 seller in the men’s and women’s categories on both Fanatics.com and NFLShop.com. It’s also the No. 2 youth jersey on both sites behind Antonio Brown.
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/9/ ... sey-anthem

So you're saying he did it as a cynical marketing ploy, to build his brand?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:23 pm

No, he's saying Trump engineered this whole thing after buying stock in the company that makes his jersey.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:58 pm

Moliere wrote:
hepcat wrote:
Moliere wrote:What is the end goal of these anthem protests? Is Trump supposed to resign? Is it to make us aware that racism still exists? Well, Trump is not going to resign and now we now racism still exists. Great, what's next?
America knew racism existed in 1968. Are you saying Tommie Smith and John Carlos were wasting their time with ridiculous protests?
Is there a list of policy changes these anthem protesters are asking for? I'm asking, what is the point of their protests? What specific things do they want to see happen?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

...Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances...

...The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...

...All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That's end goal of the protests - that the USA live up to the ideals enshrined in the Constitution and Declaration, and the reason for the protests is that we aren't.

It's not about policy changes, it's about actually living up to our most sacred ideals.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:Dang, yo. How much coffee have you had today?

Heh. Tried to take a break. Sometimes I get the bit between my teeth. Mostly it's the meds.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:06 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:Dang, yo. How much coffee have you had today?
Heh. Tried to take a break. Sometimes I get the bit between my teeth. Mostly it's the meds.

I hope you brought enough for everyone?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:09 pm

Rip wrote:
Steelers offensive tackle Alejandro Villanueva is being lauded for his patriotism by some groups after the U.S. Army veteran chose not to stand with his teammates in the tunnel during the national anthem and instead take the field.

That decision is already having a major impact — on his jersey sales. Overnight the obscure offensive lineman went from the depths of Steelers’ jersey sales to its No. 1 seller in the men’s and women’s categories on both Fanatics.com and NFLShop.com. It’s also the No. 2 youth jersey on both sites behind Antonio Brown.
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/9/ ... sey-anthem

Now that's an effective boycott.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:10 pm

Pyperkub wrote:It's not about policy changes, it's about actually living up to our most sacred ideals.

Since it's clear that the GOP's most sacred ideals are "I got mine, so fuck you" and "Don't be brown and/or poor", I'd say they're doing a remarkable job of living up to them so far.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:12 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Rip wrote:
Steelers offensive tackle Alejandro Villanueva is being lauded for his patriotism by some groups after the U.S. Army veteran chose not to stand with his teammates in the tunnel during the national anthem and instead take the field.

That decision is already having a major impact — on his jersey sales. Overnight the obscure offensive lineman went from the depths of Steelers’ jersey sales to its No. 1 seller in the men’s and women’s categories on both Fanatics.com and NFLShop.com. It’s also the No. 2 youth jersey on both sites behind Antonio Brown.
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/9/ ... sey-anthem
Now that's an effective boycott.

I don't know how NFL merchandising works, but I hope he gets a piece of that pie.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:21 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Rip wrote:
Steelers offensive tackle Alejandro Villanueva is being lauded for his patriotism by some groups after the U.S. Army veteran chose not to stand with his teammates in the tunnel during the national anthem and instead take the field.

That decision is already having a major impact — on his jersey sales. Overnight the obscure offensive lineman went from the depths of Steelers’ jersey sales to its No. 1 seller in the men’s and women’s categories on both Fanatics.com and NFLShop.com. It’s also the No. 2 youth jersey on both sites behind Antonio Brown.
https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/9/ ... sey-anthem
Now that's an effective boycott.
I don't know how NFL merchandising works, but I hope he gets a piece of that pie.

He does. There's an NFLPA cut and players get 2/3 of that cut. The other third goes to the Union and the retired player fund. I only know this because there was a thing about Kaepernick jersey sales being in the to 50 when he wasn't even on a team. He donated all his jersey proceeds to charity.

If I were forced to guess I'd say players get around $8-20 per $100 jersey.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:50 pm

Remus West wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
msteelers wrote:
Remus West wrote:On a side note, Kapernick lost all credibility to me when he admitted he did not even vote.
I agree with this. I lost respect for Kaepernick because he didn't vote.
If he feels that neither party has his best interests in mind, why on earth would he think voting was a way to effect meaningful change? I mean, WE have had conversations where the difference between parties is blurred until you can't tell the difference.

Is volunteering twice a week at a soup kitchen/homeless shelter a better or worse way to impact social change than pulling a lever? When you have a national audience, you don't think addressing that audience would have enormously more impact than anonymously writing someone's name down? If he voted and kept his mouth shut, would we even know who he is or what he thinks? Would the Drumpf have decided to criticize his voting habits? Would the entire NFL have defied Drumpf because of a lever that was pulled?

I've never heard such an asinine reason for dismissing a person out of hand.

Sure, yes, I completely agree that he should vote. Spoil your ballot at a minimum. But the idea that what he says is less than meaningless because he doesn't participate in the election process is bunk. If you haven't noticed, the election process seems to be experiencing some challenges that aren't going to be addressed with a larger turnout.
If you speak of working to solve an issue but then decline to participate in the simplest manner I reserve the right to no longer respect you. I still respect the need for change - something I did well before he began kneeling - but I simply view his protest as meaningless grandstanding rather than any true effort to effect change. Removing yourself from participating in the nation does nothing to attempt to fix the challenges facing it.

Pretty sure his actions are having a much larger effect than his vote would have. It seems you are more concerned with ideals than results, and you have every right to be.

Edit: Oh boy, I didn't notice there were two more pages of discussion.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:02 pm

FWIW, I thought Kaepernick's orginal protest was counterproductive. I also thought not voting was even more ridiculous.

If you want mainstream society to listen, you don't tell them how fucked up the ideology of the system is. They'll listen to execution, but not the things we take for granted like stand for the flag and vote.

However, clearly I was wrong. I still think it's counterproductive, but at least more people are paying attention. It's now bigger than him. It wasn't before.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:11 pm

I'm about to explode on facebook on people posting these meme's/articles about this protest. From the Jerry Jones telling his team they will stand or be fired, to the NFL telling Tebow he can't pray, to people saying the protest is about the dispresepcting the flag/military and the newest one going around... the false reporting of the NFL's policy that all players must stand for the anthem.

1: It's not about the flag
2: It's not about the Military
3: It's not about hatred of America
4: Nowhere does it say you have to stand. It said you should be in the sidelines
5: Jerry Jones or any other coach has not told their players that if you don't stand you're fired.

I think people are trying to come up with all these excuses\reasons, false news, so that they don't have to deal with what the real issue is being protested about.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:13 pm

noxiousdog wrote:FWIW, I thought Kaepernick's orginal protest was counterproductive. I also thought not voting was even more ridiculous.

If you want mainstream society to listen, you don't tell them how fucked up the ideology of the system is. They'll listen to execution, but not the things we take for granted like stand for the flag and vote.

However, clearly I was wrong. I still think it's counterproductive, but at least more people are paying attention. It's now bigger than him. It wasn't before.

The thing is, he wasn't trying to be productive. He just felt that he couldn't stand for the anthem of a country he felt was so hypocritical regarding its values. He didn't ask anyone else to do anything, it was purely personal and he didn't publicize it at all.

Everyone else did however.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:27 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:FWIW, I thought Kaepernick's orginal protest was counterproductive. I also thought not voting was even more ridiculous.

If you want mainstream society to listen, you don't tell them how fucked up the ideology of the system is. They'll listen to execution, but not the things we take for granted like stand for the flag and vote.

However, clearly I was wrong. I still think it's counterproductive, but at least more people are paying attention. It's now bigger than him. It wasn't before.
The thing is, he wasn't trying to be productive. He just felt that he couldn't stand for the anthem of a country he felt was so hypocritical regarding its values. He didn't ask anyone else to do anything, it was purely personal and he didn't publicize it at all.

Everyone else did however.

In fact, he had done it for 2-3 weeks into preseason before it was even noticed by a journalist who posted it on Twitter. Then it blew up.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:38 pm

https://apnews.com/e5846c33e572498ba949 ... _medium=AP

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — North Korea’s top diplomat said Monday that U.S. President Donald Trump’s weekend tweet was a “declaration of war” and North Korea has the right to retaliate by shooting down U.S. bombers, even in international airspace.

It was the latest escalation in a week of undiplomatic exchanges between North Korea and the U.S. during the U.N. General Assembly’s annual ministerial meeting.

Foreign Minister Ri Yong Ho told reporters that the United Nations and the international community have said in recent days that they didn’t want “the war of words” to turn into “real action.”

But he said that by tweeting that North Korea’s leadership led by Kim Jong Un “won’t be around much longer,” Trump “declared the war on our country.”

I wish my nephew hadn't signed up for the military.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:49 pm

I've got lots of friends who are Trump supporters because he has vowed to "strengthen our military and respect our soldiers". Wonder how they're feeling now.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:49 pm

He really does have a tweet for every occasion

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... index.html

President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name-our country has far bigger problems! FOCUS on them,not nonsense

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:51 pm

Remember back in the 1960s when Freedom Riders and marchers and MLK and other civil rights icons were protesting injustice in a such a proper and respectful way that none of the racists found any reason to complain about it?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:54 pm

Holman wrote:Remember back in the 1960s when Freedom Riders and marchers and MLK and other civil rights icons were protesting injustice in a such a proper and respectful way that none of the racists found any reason to complain about it?

Dale Junior does.

https://twitter.com/DaleJr/status/912284220067893248

All Americans R granted rights 2 peaceful protests Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable-JFK

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:55 pm

Now he's bringing up Pat Tillman and just pissing all over his memory by trying to use him to defend himself. Trump is pure trash.

Captain Caveman · Post by **Captain Caveman** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:06 pm

Max Peck wrote:Once again, I can't tell if Trump is indulging in baseless speculation or leaking classified information.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 9815702529
@realDonaldTrump wrote:Iran just test-fired a Ballistic Missile capable of reaching Israel.They are also working with North Korea.Not much of an agreement we have!

Uh, guys?

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/912421495103787013
Shoudn't Trump be privy to intel telling him this missile launch didn't happen?

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:11 pm

Holman wrote:Remember back in the 1960s when Freedom Riders and marchers and MLK and other civil rights icons were protesting injustice in a such a proper and respectful way that none of the racists found any reason to complain about it?

No worries, your state governments are on it.

The civil rights and Vietnam protests changed America. Today, they might be illegal.

What’s the state of free speech in America?

Sanford Ungar, who teaches about it at Harvard and Georgetown, has a simple, depressing answer.

“It’s a mess,” he says.

It’s not just the problems on college campuses where high-profile speakers haven’t been allowed to talk. It’s not just what happened in Charlottesville, where a counterprotester was run over and killed. It’s not just President Trump’s insistent call for the firings or suspensions of NFL players who take a knee during the national anthem to protest police violence.

An insidious problem also is developing in dozens of states where legislatures are considering — and sometimes approving — new laws that restrict free speech.

“They are criminalizing things that are pretty routine,” Ungar told me. “Much of the activism of the Vietnam and civil rights era would be completely illegal” under the new laws.

The lunch-counter sit-ins that were a staple of civil rights protests in the ’60s would, under some new legislation, be punishable because they “disrupt commerce.” And the demonstrations that brought thousands into the streets of major cities to protest the Vietnam War would be a crime because they blocked traffic.

Twenty-seven states have considered such legislation, he said. Twelve bills have become law, and many others remain under consideration.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:12 pm

Trolled. So easily. The POTUS.

It's like a guy sitting in front of a dictionary not bothering to check a definition of a word he's never heard before, before making a declarative statement about that word.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:15 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Max Peck wrote:Once again, I can't tell if Trump is indulging in baseless speculation or leaking classified information.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 9815702529
@realDonaldTrump wrote:Iran just test-fired a Ballistic Missile capable of reaching Israel.They are also working with North Korea.Not much of an agreement we have!
Uh, guys?
https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/912421495103787013
Shoudn't Trump be privy to intel telling him this missile launch didn't happen?

The shocking development is that Trump isn't parroting a Fox News story.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:07 pm

naednek wrote:I'm about to explode on facebook on people posting these meme's/articles about this protest. From the Jerry Jones telling his team they will stand or be fired, to the NFL telling Tebow he can't pray, to people saying the protest is about the dispresepcting the flag/military and the newest one going around... the false reporting of the NFL's policy that all players must stand for the anthem.

1: It's not about the flag
2: It's not about the Military
3: It's not about hatred of America
4: Nowhere does it say you have to stand. It said you should be in the sidelines
5: Jerry Jones or any other coach has not told their players that if you don't stand you're fired.

I think people are trying to come up with all these excuses\reasons, false news, so that they don't have to deal with what the real issue is being protested about.

I'm dealing with the same exact frustrations on my Facebook today, and I 100% agree with your assessment of the situation. The real story here is the social injustice, but very few people actually are talking about that. Instead everyone is in a tiff about how disrespectful it is not to stand for the anthem. That's a side circus. Unfortunately it's turned into the main discussion about this, and I think that was a deliberate attempt to get people to not focus on the fact that the players are right.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:17 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Max Peck wrote:Once again, I can't tell if Trump is indulging in baseless speculation or leaking classified information.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 9815702529
@realDonaldTrump wrote:Iran just test-fired a Ballistic Missile capable of reaching Israel.They are also working with North Korea.Not much of an agreement we have!
Uh, guys?
https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/912421495103787013
Shoudn't Trump be privy to intel telling him this missile launch didn't happen?

What a fine way to celebrate the eve of Stanislav Petrov Day...

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:32 pm

msteelers wrote:I'm dealing with the same exact frustrations on my Facebook today, and I 100% agree with your assessment of the situation. The real story here is the social injustice, but very few people actually are talking about that. Instead everyone is in a tiff about how disrespectful it is not to stand for the anthem. That's a side circus. Unfortunately it's turned into the main discussion about this, and I think that was a deliberate attempt to get people to not focus on the fact that the players are right.

The people who are most uncomfortable with the NFL protests are the very ones that need to see it. The mere fact that they want it out of sight and out of mind is further proof that they are part of the problem.

I've dealt with it all day at work. "I'm not watching the NFL anymore." "There are other ways to get your point across." Blah blah blah. Everything but ask themselves why someone would feel so disenfranchised from their own country that they'd feel the need to turn their back on the national anthem. Don't shoot the messenger. Listen to the message.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:08 pm

According to Villanueva, his standing that far in front of his teammates was a mistake.

Villanueva, who served in the United States Army, said that he spoke to Ben Roethlisberger on Saturday night after the team came to a decision about their plan for Sunday and asked if he could stand at the front of the team so he could see what was happening on the field. He said he walked to a point where he could see the flag on the field, but wound up too far in front of his teammates and didn’t want to walk back to the team during the song.

Villanueva said he did not want to give the impression that the team was not unified and said several times that it was “my fault only” that things didn’t go off as planned.

“Unfortunately I threw my teammates under the bus, unintentionally,” Villanueva said in a video from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Jerseys and shirts with Villanueva’s number have been selling well since the anthem on Sunday and many have attributed that to where he was standing during the anthem. Villanueva said that impression is “completely wrong” and that he feels embarrassed every time he sees a picture of him standing by himself.

Villanueva spoke passionately about his service during his 15 minutes with the media and said that he does not believe that players who choose not to stand disrespect that service, adding that he’s heard thanks for it from players who have knelt and that he’d be OK with teammates who chose to kneel even though he’d never do it himself.

“We as a team tried to figure it out, obviously we butchered it, but I have learned that … I can’t tell you that I know what my teammates have gone through,” Villanueva said. “I’m not gonna pretend like I have the righteous kind of voice that you should stand up for the national anthem.”

This matches up from what we know of the meeting, where Villanueva said he just didn't want to draw attention to himself.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:30 pm

I have Rmn9s personal guarantee that the Steelers have absolutely no problem with Villanueva's actions. He should stop worrying about it.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:30 pm

YellowKing wrote:
msteelers wrote:I'm dealing with the same exact frustrations on my Facebook today, and I 100% agree with your assessment of the situation. The real story here is the social injustice, but very few people actually are talking about that. Instead everyone is in a tiff about how disrespectful it is not to stand for the anthem. That's a side circus. Unfortunately it's turned into the main discussion about this, and I think that was a deliberate attempt to get people to not focus on the fact that the players are right.
The people who are most uncomfortable with the NFL protests are the very ones that need to see it. The mere fact that they want it out of sight and out of mind is further proof that they are part of the problem.

I've dealt with it all day at work. "I'm not watching the NFL anymore." "There are other ways to get your point across." Blah blah blah. Everything but ask themselves why someone would feel so disenfranchised from their own country that they'd feel the need to turn their back on the national anthem. Don't shoot the messenger. Listen to the message.

I don't care that they bash their brains in for my entertainment but try to make a point during some jingoistic joke of a show of "respect" and I'm out. Selfish bastards. I hear cockfighting is livestreamed nowdays...

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:32 pm

So apparently Jerry Fuckin' Jones kneeled tonight with the whole Cowboys team. Or so I hear. I'm at my girls' ballet class...

Trump will just love that one.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:42 pm

He did, and smiled.

gilraen · Post by **gilraen** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:43 pm

Zaxxon wrote:So apparently Jerry Fuckin' Jones kneeled tonight with the whole Cowboys team. Or so I hear. I'm at my girls' ballet class...

Trump will just love that one.

19-second clip as proof

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:45 pm

gilraen wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:So apparently Jerry Fuckin' Jones kneeled tonight with the whole Cowboys team. Or so I hear. I'm at my girls' ballet class...

Trump will just love that one.
19-second clip as proof

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:45 pm

Zaxxon wrote:So apparently Jerry Fuckin' Jones kneeled tonight with the whole Cowboys team. Or so I hear. I'm at my girls' ballet class...

Trump will just love that one.

Strip him of ownership!

Also, that grin...he knows Twitter is blowing up.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:51 pm

A quick clarification, since this incident is sure to be used as proof of "winning" by both sides. The team kneeled before the anthem was played, and stood together during.

And now the Cowboys have followed suit, albeit before the National Anthem began. The entire team kneeled while they all locked arms to show unity amongst the team -- with owner Jerry Jones standing amongst them.

It was a strong show of solidarity while also staying true to their tradition of standing during the Anthem itself.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:05 pm

it needs to be said - this isn't about being against America. (not saying you said that, Clearly)

taking a knee in the NFL is generally done when someone you respect (a fellow football player) is seriously hurt - and a moment is needed to say "above this game, this is NOT what we are about... no one want's THIS"

I believe that is the psychology behind 'the knee', and to make it about being patriotic, or respecting the United States is absurd.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 pm

Can someone translate his latest tweets on Puerto rico and their infrastructure being destroyed, but sadly they're in billions of debt which must be dealt with first? Is he really holding them hostage over debts when the island has been destroyed?