That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://garbi.online/forum/
It's not that it's new, it's that the casual reasoning just struck me particularly hard. If everything is better, faster, cheaper then it follows that the vast majority of people will get less while the cost of things will increase.Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:54 pm Because capitalism. You're acting like this is all new to you and I can't believe that is true.
Exactly. This is why Elysium may end up being a prescient vision of the future. Eventually even the technological benefits will be locked off to all but the wealthiest as the movie depicted. We have hints that some of it is *happening right now*. Children of less wealthy people don't have adequate Internet access to attend school remotely and their parents have to go to work, get sick, and die. But at least the kids each have a Switch (maybe) to comfort them.Holman wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:30 am It's far better to be in the lower class in modern American than in ancient Rome or whatever, but that's cold comfort when medical bills wipe you out completely or you have to work three jobs just to eke out security and and place to raise your kids. This, while those just a couple of rungs above you live like emperors.
Sorry for the delay. I'm working on my third straight day of 12 hour workdays.malchior wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:22 am How so? Unless I'm getting the benefit you are describing wrong I am attempting to address the core of the logic in the claim. I'll rephrase if it helps, the idea is that waitresses wages haven't kept up but they got all the "benefits" of the advance of 'technology' and increased purchasing power for goods, right?
The data says otherwise. Notably - Figure A.noxiousdog wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:33 pmSorry for the delay. I'm working on my third straight day of 12 hour workdays.malchior wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:22 am How so? Unless I'm getting the benefit you are describing wrong I am attempting to address the core of the logic in the claim. I'll rephrase if it helps, the idea is that waitresses wages haven't kept up but they got all the "benefits" of the advance of 'technology' and increased purchasing power for goods, right?
I believe LM was asking why productivity gains aren't being seen by the average worker, and the reality is that they are and significantly.
It is at the very least correlated and likely driven by the income-productivity split. Income distribution has been systematically squashed out of the middle class and almost entirely pushed up into the top 1%. As I noted before, costs for essentials like housing and healthcare have exceeded inflation while real salaries are close to parity with the 70s (+10%). It is next to impossible at society scale to build wealth in a middle class if aggregate incomes for that segment aren't keeping up with aggregate costs for them. Housing costs are +80% in real dollars for that middle class family for instance since the 70s. It has driven the average age of a first-time buyer from 25-34 in the early 80s to 44 in 2017. There are a lot of different theories about the whys here but I don't think there is much support for the idea that income and wealth inequality are disconnected.Wealth inequality is a completely different conversation and is kind of like saying the sky is blue. I'm not even sure our arch-conservatives on this board would argue it doesn't exist. There's plenty of disagreement on what to do about it though.
What are they then? It is only a monologue in the sense that you haven't contributed *any specifics* at all. I provided specific data and how I and others have interpreted it. Feel free to refute it, point out the flaws, or don't engage at all if you choose. I just ask that you leave the snark behind because it is completely uncalled for.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:28 am "Have they reaped any of the benefits of all of the productivity gains of the last 55 years?"
Yes. Quite a bit. Not in their pay, but yes.
But enjoy your monologue.
Cell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.malchior wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:18 amWhat are they then? It is only a monologue because you haven't contributed *any specifics* at all. I provided specific data and how I and others have interpreted it. Feel free to refute it, point out the flaws, or don't engage at all if you choose. I just ask that you leave the snark behind because it is completely uncalled for.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:28 am "Have they reaped any of the benefits of all of the productivity gains of the last 55 years?"
Yes. Quite a bit. Not in their pay, but yes.
But enjoy your monologue.
You are conflating productivity and automation. While the latter is a direct contributor to the former, they are not the same thing.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 am Cell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.
The snark is because you know all that and instead wanted to grandstand on income inequality. I called it out rightfully as a non-sequiter as it has nothing to do with LM's question (unless you're an LM whisperer and that was his real question, I suppose). Then you doubled down.
Funny this is why I addressed this above and Holman's post above captures it succinctly.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 amCell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.
I thought this place was an open discussion. The 'grandstanding' was a defense of your claim that it is non-sequitur. I still disagree. Even taking into account what LM asked I still think it is the heart of the matter. You keep talking past it. That's your right but again I think the snark is completely uncalled for.The snark is because you know all that and instead wanted to grandstand on income inequality. I called it out rightfully as a non-sequiter as it has nothing to do with LM's question (unless you're an LM whisperer and that was his real question, I suppose).
What does this even mean? You mean addressing your blatantly absurd claim that income and wealth aren't related? If you don't want to have a serious discussion that's again your right but please don't make this out to be anything than you being thorny here.Then you doubled down.
Yes, but when you are measuring the economics, it's in productivity. Most of the list above is a combination of both technology.. an engineer is far more productive with CAD than with a desk sketcher (no idea what the real name is), and then automation which allows mass production.gilraen wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:45 amYou are conflating productivity and automation. While the latter is a direct contributor to the former, they are not the same thing.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 am Cell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.
The snark is because you know all that and instead wanted to grandstand on income inequality. I called it out rightfully as a non-sequiter as it has nothing to do with LM's question (unless you're an LM whisperer and that was his real question, I suppose). Then you doubled down.
Still, CAD doesn't create a need for more engineers, while automation sends people home from the factory.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:59 amYes, but when you are measuring the economics, it's in productivity. Most of the list above is a combination of both technology.. an engineer is far more productive with CAD than with a desk sketcher (no idea what the real name is), and then automation which allows mass production.gilraen wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:45 amYou are conflating productivity and automation. While the latter is a direct contributor to the former, they are not the same thing.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 am Cell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.
The snark is because you know all that and instead wanted to grandstand on income inequality. I called it out rightfully as a non-sequiter as it has nothing to do with LM's question (unless you're an LM whisperer and that was his real question, I suppose). Then you doubled down.
Yep - we can even allow that there are cases where automation may create some jobs. Especially when it wrings out bottle necks that block growth. There is a solid history of that but we're largely on the other side and its heavily on the job destruction/low wage job creation path now. Why do "we" accept that? That's tough and we might find out soon how long it can continue as the economic situation gets worse now that the government has decided to let the unemployed fend for themselves.Holman wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:19 amStill, CAD doesn't create a need for more engineers, while automation sends people home from the factory.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:59 amYes, but when you are measuring the economics, it's in productivity. Most of the list above is a combination of both technology.. an engineer is far more productive with CAD than with a desk sketcher (no idea what the real name is), and then automation which allows mass production.gilraen wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:45 amYou are conflating productivity and automation. While the latter is a direct contributor to the former, they are not the same thing.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 am Cell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.
The snark is because you know all that and instead wanted to grandstand on income inequality. I called it out rightfully as a non-sequiter as it has nothing to do with LM's question (unless you're an LM whisperer and that was his real question, I suppose). Then you doubled down.
That's way to broad of a statement. The more my team automates the more highly skilled workers we need. That's probably pretty true across the board as there's a shortage of engineers throughout the world. There's a couple reasons for this. 1) technology tends to require skilled workers to maintain and 2) productivity allows projects that were previously too expensive, to become available for development.Holman wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:19 amStill, CAD doesn't create a need for more engineers, while automation sends people home from the factory.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:59 amYes, but when you are measuring the economics, it's in productivity. Most of the list above is a combination of both technology.. an engineer is far more productive with CAD than with a desk sketcher (no idea what the real name is), and then automation which allows mass production.gilraen wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:45 amYou are conflating productivity and automation. While the latter is a direct contributor to the former, they are not the same thing.noxiousdog wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:34 am Cell phones, internet, car safety and reliability features, bigger homes, technology improvements in nearly every appliance that exists, medical technology, air conditioning. That's without even thinking very hard. None of that stuff would be affordable by median workers (let alone minimum wage) without productivity gains.
The snark is because you know all that and instead wanted to grandstand on income inequality. I called it out rightfully as a non-sequiter as it has nothing to do with LM's question (unless you're an LM whisperer and that was his real question, I suppose). Then you doubled down.
I'd agree but I don't know how we get from point A to point Z on that considering the impasse we are seeing in the Congress right now around unemployment support.LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:37 am UMI/UBI is inevitable IMO. One way or another.
If we don't do it we'll always be one hiccup away from collapse.
blog link: https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/ - note i do not agree with some of his conclusions regarding Seattle protests, but i feel the expression of a _reasoned_ opposing view is important to political discourse.KNKX Public Radio announced Thursday it was axing its long-running weather segment with meteorologist Cliff Mass after the University of Washington professor wrote a post on his own blog comparing some Seattle protesters to the early Nazi German militia known as the Brownshirts.
Mass wrote that “Seattle has had it(s) Kristallnacht and the photos of what occurred during the past weeks are eerily similar to those of 80 years ago.”
Kristallnacht was a pogrom carried out by the Nazis in 1938 that is widely seen as a precursor to the Holocaust, a turning point in Germany when social, political and economic persecution of Jewish people turned physical.
“We abhor the comparison and find it sensationalized and misleading — it does not reflect who we are and what we stand for at KNKX,” the radio station wrote on its website.
Mass, a professor of atmospheric sciences at the UW, said Friday morning that he was “stunned by the reaction. It exploded in a way I was stunned by.”
He said Friday morning, and wrote in a comment on his blog post Thursday night, that he wasn’t referring broadly to all protesters, just referring to people who destroyed property. “I compared those DOING VIOLENCE to Brownshirts,” he wrote in an email to The Seattle Times.
Mass, who is Jewish, said he wrote his blog post after being “deeply moved when I took a walk around the city.” He said the shattered windows and empty, boarded-up businesses he saw reminded him of the infamous November night when German paramilitary officers and rioters broke the windows of 7,000 Jewish-owned businesses.
He said Friday he believes Seattle needs strong leadership and not police defunding.
He also said, had he not used the words “Kristallnacht” and “Brownshirts,” he suspects the reaction would have been different.
precisely so. which is why i said 'consequences of free speech' - nothing to do with 1st Amendment rights itself.Alefroth wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:44 pm Was the station within it's rights to end the relationship with him.
While "Kristallnacht" means "night of broken glass," does he think breaking windows was the point of it?hitbyambulance wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:04 pm local politics, this time involving an activist weather blogger...
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... tallnacht/
KNKX Public Radio announced Thursday it was axing its long-running weather segment with meteorologist Cliff Mass after the University of Washington professor wrote a post on his own blog comparing some Seattle protesters to the early Nazi German militia known as the Brownshirts.
Mass wrote that “Seattle has had it(s) Kristallnacht and the photos of what occurred during the past weeks are eerily similar to those of 80 years ago.”
Kristallnacht was a pogrom carried out by the Nazis in 1938 that is widely seen as a precursor to the Holocaust, a turning point in Germany when social, political and economic persecution of Jewish people turned physical.
Well, he's Jewish. He walked around downtown and saw a bunch of smashed property, and Kristallnacht is kind of in the wheelhouse of cultural references for Jews seeing that kind of thing. I assume that he understood that Jews weren't being targeted. Though obviously with no minority groups that I'm aware of being specifically targeted that rather limits the point of the comparison.Holman wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:44 pmWhile "Kristallnacht" means "night of broken glass," does he think breaking windows was the point of it?hitbyambulance wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:04 pm local politics, this time involving an activist weather blogger...
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... tallnacht/
KNKX Public Radio announced Thursday it was axing its long-running weather segment with meteorologist Cliff Mass after the University of Washington professor wrote a post on his own blog comparing some Seattle protesters to the early Nazi German militia known as the Brownshirts.
Mass wrote that “Seattle has had it(s) Kristallnacht and the photos of what occurred during the past weeks are eerily similar to those of 80 years ago.”
Kristallnacht was a pogrom carried out by the Nazis in 1938 that is widely seen as a precursor to the Holocaust, a turning point in Germany when social, political and economic persecution of Jewish people turned physical.
What minority group is the target of Seattle protesters' repression? Violent cops?
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Bully who believes Coronavirus is a hoax harasses city of Austin lifeguards working as park monitors.
Almost unbelievably, Alex Jones is Gen X. He was born in 1974.
Not early enough.YellowKing wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:51 pm Being pissed off all the time is not a great way to stay healthy. Stress takes an incredible toll on the body. All these people working them up in a rage over libtards are doing nothing but driving themselves into an early grave.
follow up post:El Guapo wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:05 pmWell, he's Jewish. He walked around downtown and saw a bunch of smashed property, and Kristallnacht is kind of in the wheelhouse of cultural references for Jews seeing that kind of thing. I assume that he understood that Jews weren't being targeted. Though obviously with no minority groups that I'm aware of being specifically targeted that rather limits the point of the comparison.Holman wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:44 pm
While "Kristallnacht" means "night of broken glass," does he think breaking windows was the point of it?
What minority group is the target of Seattle protesters' repression? Violent cops?
Anyway, I can see why that comparison came to him in terms of visuals, but obviously it doesn't work and he shouldn't exactly be shocked that people reacted strongly to the comparison.
I hopped this over to R&P because I wanted to ask which "groups" are having hate slung at them. There are two that spring to mind right now. One is the "old guard" that refuses to give up on racism and bigotry as a way of life; society has become pretty intolerant towards that mentality, but I'm not seeing it geared at other cultures. The other isn't anything I'd call militant or dangerous, but I've seen some folks in the LGBT+ community lash out with sometimes irrational anger when someone doesn't understand them well enough. I may be wrong or insulated from whatever it is and wanted to ask, but that thread didn't seem the right place.msduncan wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:24 amWhile I would love to agree with this, all I see is a very real and very militant shift towards slinging anger, rage, hate, and violence towards those who do not lock-step share whatever views they might have on any matter you can come up with. So while it’s nice to think they are “accepting” and “open”, the reality is that they are militant and close minded if you don’t agree with them. In some cases dangerously so.Paingod wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:02 amI think that anyone under the age of 30 right now is seeing a dramatic shift towards acceptance to all manner of lifestyles. Repeatedly, too, I've been hearing a recurring theme for years about the new generations placing far higher value on experiences than material possessions - as in they'd rather take a vacation to an Air BnB somewhere cool and have a lifetime memory over picking up a new doodad they'll toss out in a couple years.MHS wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:26 pmWould that everyone would learn this, and do it sooner. I think the millennials and zoomers already have a better grasp on it than previous generations, but maybe I'm being too optimistic.Smoove_B wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:28 pmThe older I get, this is becoming clearer and clearer. Our meatbags are here for such a short period of time, really the best we can wish for anyone is that they find some happiness.
I don't think it's too optimistic at all. I think the folks in their youth right now are living a sort of mellowed out 60's vibe. There's no huge party or movement they'll define themselves with, but they're becoming far more open to the world and other cultures than their parents.
I've seen this pop up as a talking point many times when discussion of bigotry comes up. In fact, the last time I heard it used as an excuse was during the Chick-Fil-A boycotts. And essentially the idea is that if you don't agree with a bigot, then YOU are the one who is intolerant.msduncan wrote:So while it’s nice to think they are “accepting” and “open”, the reality is that they are militant and close minded if you don’t agree with them.
YellowKing wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:21 pmI've seen this pop up as a talking point many times when discussion of bigotry comes up. In fact, the last time I heard it used as an excuse was during the Chick-Fil-A boycotts. And essentially the idea is that if you don't agree with a bigot, then YOU are the one who is intolerant.msduncan wrote:So while it’s nice to think they are “accepting” and “open”, the reality is that they are militant and close minded if you don’t agree with them.
It's a false equivalency being used to justify bigotry. And it's bullshit.
The bigot would have you believe that in order for you to not be a hypocrite, then you must stand aside and let the bigot freely practice their discrimination. They would also have you believe that calling someone out for discriminating against an LGBT+ person is morally equivalent, if not worse, than the person doing the discrimination!
Are there entitled assholes in every community that get overly butthurt at the slightest provocation? Absolutely. But that's a far cry from passing discriminatory laws or engaging in hate crimes.
P.S. Wanted to add, I see this argument used a lot on Facebook from my Trump supporting friends. It's usually something along the lines of "Woe is me, why can't we all just get along" as if they haven't spent the last four year sowing divisiveness. Sorry, you don't get a free pass for being a horrible person when you start facing the repercussions of your actions.
I've seen this pop up as a talking point many times when discussion of bigotry comes up. In fact, the last time I heard it used as an excuse was during the Chick-Fil-A boycotts. And essentially the idea is that if you don't agree with a bigot, then YOU are the one who is intolerant.msduncan wrote:So while it’s nice to think they are “accepting” and “open”, the reality is that they are militant and close minded if you don’t agree with them.
As California enters another dangerous fire season, the COVID-19 pandemic has depleted the ranks of inmate fire crews that are a key component of the state’s efforts to battle out-of-control wildfires
This week, state prison officials announced they had placed 12 of the state’s 43 inmate fire camps on lockdown due to a massive outbreak at a Northern California prison in Lassen County that serves as the training center for fire crews.
Until the lockdown lifts, only 30 of the state’s 77 inmate crews are available to fight a wildfire in the north state, prison officials said.
California’s incarcerated firefighters have for decades been the state’s primary firefighting “hand crews,” and the shortage has officials scrambling to come up with replacement firefighters in a dry season that is shaping up to be among the most extreme in years. The state is hunting for bulldozer crews and enlisting teams that normally clear brush as replacements.
Inmate crews are among the first on the scene at fires large and small across the state. Name a major wildfire in recent years — from the devastating wine country and Thomas fires in 2017 to the massive Carr and Camp fires the following year — and inmates were there, on the ground cutting fire breaks around evacuated homes.