Dawn of War 2

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:57 pm

Should start being careful of flamethrowers though. On forums you'll read a lot of whining about how much flame weapons were nerfed against sluggas and hormigaunts (which have flame resistant armor) but the reality in play is I've had slugga squads burned into ash in barely a few seconds with the tacs then rushing up and burning down all my generators just as quickly.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:22 am

I've taken some time off the game to just kinda get away from it all and hopefully take a fresh look at it again after said break. Well, I've been taking that look over the last couple nights, just checking out some replays and seeing what people are doing. Hopefully a little less impartial now that none of this is happening to me personally, watching these replays gives me the sense that the feel of this game is just off... even now.

I think the biggest thing that keeps hitting me over the head is the presence of the retreat system. It worked great in CoH where all armies were humanoid and relatively symmetrical in that vein. Relic thought it would be a great idea to port it into DoW2 in exactly that same state and this proved not to work well. It's since been tweaked to function better but I still feel like, with with so many more different variables, combinations of infantry types, and so on the entire system just doesn't belong. It turns what's supposed to be a strategy game of carnage and unit combat into what I feel is a game focusing on maneuvering and tactical retreats that often suffer extremely minor penalties due to the small map size. Your tacs in trouble? Ah, just hit retreat. You might lose a strategic point, but just bring it all back again and all will be well.

Anyway, here are the replays I've watched over the last couple of days. I chose these because of the high number of wubs over on gamereplays.org.

Game 1: http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... s&id=91844" target="_blank

Orks vs. Nids. Nid player is rank 60, so assuming he's been around a while. Tight game throughout, entertaining to watch at times, but maddening in that the game makes it into tier 2 without either side losing much of anything because of really early tactical retreats. Smart play perhaps, but what results feels like more the whack-a-mole I've read so many players complain about and far less like the Warhammer it's supposed to be. The Ork player is particularly interesting to watch as he plays almost the entire game with nothing but Sluggas and his Warboss, hitting T3 but building nothing in T2 whatsoever. This game is fun for the most part and actually worth watching.

Games 2 and 3: http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... s&id=92130" target="_blank and http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... s&id=92128" target="_blank

Two games out of what was supposedly a three-game set pitting the same Nid player from game 1 against an SM player. SM player goes Apo (I swear I didn't choose these intentionally for that reason). Both games follow relatively the same approaches, at least early: nid player focuses on adrenal hormas plus a single barbed strangler warrior in the early game, SM goes 2x scout with tac and goes for shotguns immediately. In both games the SM chose for his APO the Power Axe, Armor of Purity, and Purification Rites. EXcept for a Carnifex and a single Zo in game 2, that's nearly all that showed up.

Unlike the first game, I honestly don't feel these two are worth watching. Though the Nid player played decently in the first game, his opponent suffered five casualties for the entire game. Five. For most of the game the Apothecary was at least 2-3x the level of the Nid Hive Tyrant as a result of this. The second game was better and the SM player was on his heels for some time, but eventually the same problem resurfaced as the Nid player continually sacrificed units here and there trying desperately to inflict SM casualties and failing repeatedly. Even Scouts spent time in melee without much concern and often retreated while being smacked around by gaunts, generally escaping without losing a single figure. As the game wore on the SM player remained in ferocious melee battles longer and longer, the retreat window growing ever wider as his squads gained in level, hit points, and general badassedness. The nid player appeared to try just about everything, including a venom squad to take out a razorback (which it eventually succeeded in doing, after losing almost the entire squad twice), Raveners, switching wargear up on his HT, and more. He finally ran out of steam and guys and quit early knowing it was over.

I know it's only three replays, but here's a reiteration of what I'm feeling after watching:

--the retreat system as implemented is still FUBAR. The system desperately needs implementation of REAL penalties to frequent mass retreats in lieu of the small map size in this game.
--SM still appears broken and the Apothecary is again center stage. Who's the brainiac that thought adding huge knockback to Purification Rites to give supremely buff SM units even more time to retreat from melee attackers was a good idea? After seeing this guy tweaked over and over for the 6 months since release, I feel like he's a microcosm of what SM has been about since the beginning: a race they're trying desperately to keep somewhat faithful to the fluff but that just isn't fitting into this game properly.
-Sluggas are fun and relatively potent units now and the Warboss is a joy to watch. This makes me want to play Orks.
-Are nids the new Dow2 whipping post?

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:50 am

I think you're thinking of retreats in the wrong way. Also, I think you need to remember they're trying to keep the games around 15-30 minutes long. It's also map dependant. There are big and small maps and you adjust your behavior accordingly.

SM has always had it good in terms of retreating, its part of their army. Also, not sure what replay you were watching but gaunts have had no problem running down units in melee once they got their adrenal gland upgrade.

DoW2 isn't about early carnage, it's a build up to the carnage at late T1.5 and through T2 and T3.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:54 am

Also, 1v1 is perhaps the least interesting game play mode and requires FLAWLESS unit maneuvering. 1v1 is all about controlling the map, fighting is an afterthought. Team games are an entirely different game.

As for Nids they are the weakest current race but they are far from broken. One mistake I see Nids make all the time against SM is to blob attack a single unit. This will almost never work. However, if you manually order each Gaunt squad to attack a different Tactical you will win every time. Gaunts are especially dangerous to SM because they are the only unit in the game I know of that can keep pace with retreating units. Banshees and Sluggas can keep up for a little while but quickly lose steam. Gaunts on the other hand can continue to pounce on retreaters all the way to the enemy base.

whispa · Post by **whispa** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:15 pm

I haven't played in months but hope to play again in a few weeks. My video card died out and the new one I bought is just a temp card until I get my new rig up and running. I7 lovin

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:58 pm

Turtle: You asked about the replays - they're all linked in the previous post if you want to check them out.

Otherwise, here's how I view retreating: the game revolves around resources - req, power, space (which arguably the first two could be classified under), time (VPs), and material. Throughout a given game you end up, intentionally or otherwise, giving up one or more in exchange for one or more of the others with the goal to have the most time remaining at the end. Fighting is a pretty reliably way of accomplishing this - you invest material in destroying enemy material in the pursuit of any of the other resources. Someone usually causes more damage than the other and inevitably gets a better return on their investment.

Retreating in this game is, for better or for worse, a way to give up req, power, or space to conserve material. The problem is, unless you're one of the squishy races, there's less of a sacrifice to be made in this department. With SM in particular, assuming they have an army of decent size, they often give up nothing at all by hitting the 'reset' button.

So with that advantage in mind, what advantage(s) do the other races get to counter this? Maneuverability? Maybe, but that's only really useful as the maps get bigger. There has to be something - you can't just give one race a big "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card and everyone else gets left out in the cold.

>DoW2 isn't about early carnage, it's a build up to the carnage at late T1.5 and through T2 and T3.

I'm confused, then. Relic made T1 longer because it was virtually a neglected tier as people raced to T2. So what you're saying is what this has amounted to (with the exception of late 1.5) is a longer buildup period?

I do agree with Nine - 1v1 is definitely a different animal that I haven't touched now since probably a month or so after beta. I can see it's definitely still not the place to be. With regard to nid blob attacking though, it's ironic you mention that because someone commented on one of the replays I linked saying he thought the Nid player SHOULD have blobbed. He didn't, instead trying to spread out a little both for map control purposes and for power aggression and that just never really worked out either. Retreating units still got away relatively scot-free, though one time in two games the SM player was a hit or two away from losing a tac squad early (which would have been disastrous). I found myself wondering if a termagaunt squad or two would have helped, especially with their slowdown-thingie upgrade, but somehow I doubt it.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:02 pm

Oh you misunderstood me. Nids are supposed to blob just not blob stupidly. You basically want one Gaunt squad for each Tac squad. Don’t think that just because you have two Gaunts attacking one Tac that it will die faster. The opposite happens. The Tac has enough HP and only so many Gaunts can fit around it at once which means the other SM will kill you off faster than you kill it. Nids are also different against SM in that you want the SM heroes’ full attention on your hero. If you’re a Tyrant you need to make sure he’s attacking you. If you’re a Lictor keep the SM hero away from your Gaunts by pulling.

KiloOhm · Post by **KiloOhm** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:28 am

Where's my orc campaign.

The really dropped the ball with the DLC so far. But I guess that's their track record.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:55 am

it's likely in-progress but they had so much to clean up after release (especially bugs they introduced themselves, like the popcap problem) it doesn't surprise me it's played out this way.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:56 pm

There is a new co-op mode being introduced called Last Stand, I assume it's a Survivor style online mode where you have to survive waves of more and more difficult enemies. There's some suggestion that you'll just control the heroes too.

Unfortunately, they'll reveal this around PAX so we have to wait.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:11 pm

Interesting that they included this mode in CoH as of the Tales of Valor expansion and now here it is again in Dow2. Maybe it's just me being a fogey but on paper it sounds like a braindead way to just blow stuff up for a while. Not really interested.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:58 pm

How is that different from blowing stuff up in 2fort for a while?

I’m interested to see what it’s like. Might sound strange but I hope they implement it as a full mode with auto match capabilities and rankings. Getting people to play through incentives increases the fun for a lot of us.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:34 am

there are actually times when 2fort isn't braindead.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:49 pm

Last Stand DLC info up:

http://community.dawnofwar2.com/index.php" target="_blank

Previews and movies from various sites:

http://ow.ly/lDYz" target="_blank

http://au.pc.gamespy.com/pc/warhammer-4 ... 421p1.html" target="_blank

Yes, it's free.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:04 pm

I can't go through 29 pages, but how is the game purely for single play only? I enjoyed DOW I.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:21 pm

Jag wrote:I can't go through 29 pages, but how is the game purely for single play only? I enjoyed DOW I.

Solid B+.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:54 pm

Just be aware it isn't on DoW1's scale in terms of the size of battles. The missions get a bit repetitive, but overall the gameplay is solid, the story interesting (but nothing amazing), and presentation is great.

Also, it's even more worthwhile to try now with Last Stand coming out, many people are just daunted (and rightfully so) with the versus multiplayer. Gamespy put it best when they said that the online basically did all that it could to push new and more casual players away since matchmaking tends to pit you against experienced players. This leaves mainly hardcore and more abrasive players.

With Last Stand, however, you can get quite a bit of online play, for free, that has you doing co-op and can be played casually. Plus, it plays more similarly to the single player since you control just your hero and earn wargear as you level up.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:23 pm

Turtle wrote:Just be aware it isn't on DoW1's scale in terms of the size of battles. The missions get a bit repetitive, but overall the gameplay is solid, the story interesting (but nothing amazing), and presentation is great.

Also, it's even more worthwhile to try now with Last Stand coming out, many people are just daunted (and rightfully so) with the versus multiplayer. Gamespy put it best when they said that the online basically did all that it could to push new and more casual players away since matchmaking tends to pit you against experienced players. This leaves mainly hardcore and more abrasive players.

With Last Stand, however, you can get quite a bit of online play, for free, that has you doing co-op and can be played casually. Plus, it plays more similarly to the single player since you control just your hero and earn wargear as you level up.

Interesting. I'll put it on my buy list

I'm a pure turtler, Turtle, when it comes to RTS, so I rarely venture online.

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:10 am

ChrisGrenard wrote:
Jag wrote:I can't go through 29 pages, but how is the game purely for single play only? I enjoyed DOW I.
Solid B+.

yah, single player was awesome, for it alone it worth a purchase. Campaign really draws you in.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:27 am

Really loved the SP, never played MP. Played through it twice and wish they would stop worrying about you damn mulitplayer people and give us a new campaign.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:14 am

Bugz and Boyz is Best!

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:16 pm

That's it, you two are just breaking the game now.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:24 am

We attempted to replicate the awesomeness tonight. I built the full 100 popcap worth of Sluggas, he built 100 pop of Gaunts.

The enemy player built like 6 Carnifex's and 2 Dreadnaughts. We lost pretty much everything.

And yet we still won.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:27 pm

One of the coolest things I’ve seen happened in a game today. I was playing Lictor and I got pulled by an enemy Lictor. In the second before I had targeted his as well and as I was flying through the air my Flesh Hook shot out and grabbed him. For a moment both Lictors were somersaulting through the air. This pic really doesn’t do it justice but here it is.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:12 pm

http://relicnews.com/archives/2009/09/i ... expansion/" target="_blank

Looks like an expansion is coming in 2010, and the army in it will be Chaos.

Bleh, more space marines... On the other hand, we can continue the story arc began in DoW1 and some of its expansions. After all, the Blood Angels are inexorably tied to Chaos.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:51 pm

Bah, that’s a huge letdown for me. They better do something with Chaos this time around to make them stand out from Space Marines. Maybe make the Chaos Space Marines themselves a late tier 2 unit and only have cultist and corrupt guardsmen in tier 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised if main characters from the DoW2 campaign went over to chaos though. There were actually a couple points that hinted at them finding out bad things about their heritage.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:56 pm

I was hoping for IG, but then as I'm sure I've told everyone their mom in PM, I think eldar are IG.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:58 pm

Word has it Eliphas will be making an appearance in the expansion. L9 should appreciate that.

Any bets on whether the XP will be all Khorne again or at least a mix of some of the other gods? Nurgle would be fun.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:51 am

Where did you hear that? I would love Eliphas to make a reappearance; he was pretty much the only likeable Chaos leader from the original games. I’m not sure how they would do it though. If he won the campaign he became a Demon Prince and if he lost he was torn apart by Khorne.

Eliphas was Chaos Undivided by the way. Personally I would like them to have one leader for each God and give each a God specific summon unit. Noise Marines, Deamonets, etc. This is going by the assumption that the expansion adds one new leader for each preexisting race bringing each of them up to four.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:45 am

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/50380 ... -Announced" target="_blank

Officially confirmed.

Press release also mentions pitting chaos in multiplayer against newly reinforced Space Marine, Eldar, Ork, and Tyranid armies, so looks like the expansion adds new stuff for every army.

Your squad is back from the main campaign, and can now level to 30. There's also something about legendary wargear and stuff.

KiloOhm · Post by **KiloOhm** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:24 am

It's not an Ork campaign but I'll take it. I was surprised to see you will carry though your dudes from the first campaign (wonder if that's required??).

Really liked the original campaign.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:01 pm

sounds like this is where the librarian and other hinted-at units will finally show up - let the guessing as to which those are begin. Regardless, one would think it's gotta be a hefty expansion based on the lag time.

Unless my perspective changes before Spring next year I'll be letting you guys guinea pig this one balance-wise, etc for a while before I pick it up. With all the growing pains this game had I can't imagine they're going to get balance right out of the box.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:03 pm

well I'm mildly horny over this one.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:27 pm

some screens.

Right now it looks like a big sack of meh. I'm not a fan of the pred or dread. There's little enough units as it is, why duplicate?

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:02 pm

Not even a Defiler instead of a dred? *yawn*

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:17 pm

what hiro and 9 said. defilers could have been sweet as hell with the new engine.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:01 am

Sadly, the truth is space marines sell, either normal or chaos versions.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:07 pm

new very short marketing trailer up. only new thing i see are some kinda horned demonic things with huge one-handed flaming runeswords. I dunno what they are but I'm sure one of you will recognize them.

Link here: http://www.thq.com/uk/thqtv/index" target="_blank

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:08 pm

Those would be bloodthirsters or bloodletters. Basically really nasty in melee, not really any AV ability, decently tough, good on the charge.

I really hope SM gets more tools and option to deal with melee swarms though.

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:56 am

now i know what i wont be buying expansion for. Seriously, space marines of all races? wow what a huge variety. "Just like marines but a bit different." should be their slogan.