Octopus Overlords

There isn't a good place to park this but WaPo has a piece about the spread of political violence. With the shooting Kenosha. The riots across the country. White nationalists are running amok. Some are actively seeking civil war. This is looking worse every day.

“We are sort of at the stage of polarization where there are more and more people who are seeking confrontation, where they are not simply satisfied with disagreeing with the other side or yelling at the other side, but they want to confront,” said Mark Pitcavage, a historian and senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism. “We are not just a polarized society — we are increasingly a confrontational society now.”

How do you manage a civil war when the two sides are so intermixed?

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:21 pm How do you manage a civil war when the two sides are so intermixed?

It's difficult but populations have managed it. However, I think that is why they are showing up to battle at each others rallies right now. They can clearly identify the opponents.

dbt1949 wrote:I saw an article on line that basically said that if you can't pronounce Kamala Harris' name correctly you're a racist.
<sigh>

Yo-semites!

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:21 pm How do you manage a civil war when the two sides are so intermixed?

We're not going to have a shooting war. It would be terrible for business.

Instead, we're going to have a Cold Civil War where every outcome is determined by the demands of the market and the 1% and the techo tools required to exploit us. We'll hate each other on social media while the social media titans grow fat on selling our hatred to advertisers.

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:21 pm How do you manage a civil war when the two sides are so intermixed?

Red hats.

Procedural question: Do House bills have an expiration date? If Democrats were to take the Senate in November, how long would the hundreds of bills currently bottled up there be able to advance? Are there zombie bills from past governments that could still (hypothetically) be resurrected at any time?

Kraken wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:35 pm Procedural question: Do House bills have an expiration date? If Democrats were to take the Senate in November, how long would the hundreds of bills currently bottled up there be able to advance? Are there zombie bills from past governments that could still (hypothetically) be resurrected at any time?

I think technically the end of the current Congress. They'll swear in a new session in January and I think they'll do things like ratify rules changes, etc.

Kraken wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:35 pm Procedural question: Do House bills have an expiration date? If Democrats were to take the Senate in November, how long would the hundreds of bills currently bottled up there be able to advance? Are there zombie bills from past governments that could still (hypothetically) be resurrected at any time?

Bills are dead once the Congress adjourns at the end of the two-year cycle. They can be reintroduced, but they'll have to clear the House again (basically, start over).

I don’t read The Guardian, but this was in my news feed this morning, talking about the dangerous women speakers of the RNC, and I thought this bit about Melania seemed spot on:

Also, they introduced Ivanka as “The Honorable Ivanka Trump”?! Wtf man.

“What makes Melania so dangerous is the way so many (largely male) members of the press can’t help themselves from fawning over her. “The first lady has one trait that her husband lacks: empathy,” CNN’s Chris Cillizza wrote after Melania’s speech on Tuesday. Are you kidding me? This is the woman who excused and echoed Trump’s racist birther theories about Barack Obama. This is the woman who went to visit children in cages while wearing a jacket emblazoned with “I really don’t care, do you?” There is nothing empathetic about Melania but she does help humanize Trump; she functions like Febreze for fascism.”

Why would anyone expect insight from Chris Cillizza? I think the largely men part comes from the fact that so many mediocre reporters...tend to be men. Beyond Cillizza you have people like Chuck Todd who are just borderline useless to harmful at times.

EpochTimes aren't only annoying me with saturating youtube with ads, they've taken to sending me physical copies of their paper to "resident". I hope it costs them a lot more money than it is effective for messaging to those around me.

LordMortis wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:44 am EpochTimes aren't only annoying me with saturating youtube with ads, they've taken to sending me physical copies of their paper to "resident". I hope it costs them a lot more money than it is effective for messaging to those around me.

Ah, the print arm of Falun Gong. At least you didn't pay for it like I did with Shen Yun.

This editorial headline from the NYT caught my eye this morning: Disdain for the Less Educated Is the Last Acceptable Prejudice
It’s having a corrosive effect on American life — and hurting the Democratic Party.

It's basically a lament that we've turned into a meritocracy that disparages and demeans uneducated, working class people. I think the gist is captured in this section:

Building a politics around the idea that a college degree is a precondition for dignified work and social esteem has a corrosive effect on democratic life. It devalues the contributions of those without a diploma, fuels prejudice against less-educated members of society, effectively excludes most working people from elective government and provokes political backlash.

Not sure how I feel about this, but it was an interesting perspective that's worth a read.

Kurth wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:34 pm This editorial headline from the NYT caught my eye this morning: Disdain for the Less Educated Is the Last Acceptable Prejudice
It’s having a corrosive effect on American life — and hurting the Democratic Party.

It's basically a lament that we've turned into a meritocracy that disparages and demeans uneducated, working class people. I think the gist is captured in this section:

Building a politics around the idea that a college degree is a precondition for dignified work and social esteem has a corrosive effect on democratic life. It devalues the contributions of those without a diploma, fuels prejudice against less-educated members of society, effectively excludes most working people from elective government and provokes political backlash.

Not sure how I feel about this, but it was an interesting perspective that's worth a read.

FWIW I have seen and lived this during my adult life...both sides. But I'm not sure it's a Democrat or Republican thing, more like an American thing. We so highly value wealth, the wealthy, "winners" if you will when it comes to making money, that the results mentioned are hardly surprising. OTOH we are not alone in this...and certainly not the worst (relative to other countries, writ large).

I have a 4 year degree, worked as a white collar "knowledge worker" in a nice, comfortable 17th floor office replete with an espresso machine and a "relaxation room" for most of my career (a previous life, now) Well compensated, amazing healthcare, lots of perks, etc.
I have also worked a lot of hourly wage jobs, including construction, delivery and currently Census taking (everyone should do this at least once just for the...experience). The difference in how I was perceived, as a person, because of what I did to make money in those contrasting phases, is pretty incredible, but again, not surprising (to me).

I've said this a million times here before, but the Nordic countries really get this "right" IMO. There is a palpable (and some anecdotal evidence) sense that status based on what you do for a living, is much less important. Example: the receptionist in a large company is likely going to be considered a much more important part of the company there than here. More status, less condescension that they are "just a receptionist". Cultural differences and all that. Every job adds value to the greater good.

If we still have Nordics on the board, maybe someone can step in to confirm or call BS on that.

Kurth wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:34 pm This editorial headline from the NYT caught my eye this morning: Disdain for the Less Educated Is the Last Acceptable Prejudice
It’s having a corrosive effect on American life — and hurting the Democratic Party.

It's basically a lament that we've turned into a meritocracy that disparages and demeans uneducated, working class people. I think the gist is captured in this section:

Building a politics around the idea that a college degree is a precondition for dignified work and social esteem has a corrosive effect on democratic life. It devalues the contributions of those without a diploma, fuels prejudice against less-educated members of society, effectively excludes most working people from elective government and provokes political backlash.

Not sure how I feel about this, but it was an interesting perspective that's worth a read.

And I really thought disdain for Nazis would be the last acceptable prejudice.

CBS News: Satirical paper Charlie Hebdo reruns Muhammad cartoons as 14 go on trial for Paris attacks

As the trial opened on Wednesday, the newspaper republished some of the cartoons, under the headline: "Tout ça pour ça" (All that for this).
...
It has taken five and a half years for the case to come to trial. In that time, investigators have pieced together the chain of events that led to the attacks, first on the Charlie Hebdo offices, then two days later at a Jewish supermarket in a Paris suburb.

Initially police thought the second attack was the work of a copycat. However, in building their case, investigators found the two were closely coordinated, and that the Kouachi brothers and Amedy Coulibaly — who killed a policewoman on January 8 and then four men during the hostage-taking at the Hyper Cacher supermarket on January 9 — had several accomplices in common.

On trial are 14 people accused of helping the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly. They face a range of charges including providing material support, funding, buying weapons, and procuring a getaway car for the attackers. They face possible sentences between 10 years and life imprisonment.

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:10 am

LordMortis wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:44 am EpochTimes aren't only annoying me with saturating youtube with ads, they've taken to sending me physical copies of their paper to "resident". I hope it costs them a lot more money than it is effective for messaging to those around me.

Ah, the print arm of Falun Gong. At least you didn't pay for it like I did with Shen Yun.

OMG is that what they are? Falun Gong?

Yup.

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:04 pmYup.

Well I guess they have to start somewhere. The Moonies have the Washington Times.

From 8 years ago:

2012 Is Bullshit; 2020 Is When We’ll Really Be in Trouble
Scientist Peter Turchin's work suggests that the next state of upheaval in the US is set to hit in 2020 based on historical violence cycles.

Peter’s work suggests that peaks of violence in the US work on a 50-year cycle, with the next state of upheaval set to hit humanity in 2020.

Historical studies show that society goes through long-term cycles of violence: There’s a build-up for roughly a century, then a period of violence, or upheaval, for ten or 15 years. Then people get tired of it and the next generation goes back to being peaceful. It’s then the grandchildren of that generation—who never experienced the severity of upheaval firsthand—who are likely to start causing problems again. My theory suggests that it will be 2020 when the US hits a new peak of violence.

Historically, the trouble has always come from people with power, and the number of those people who want the most power. There are too many political entrepreneurs who are all trying to get power, and they get frustrated, which is how revolutions start: when members of the elite try to overturn the political order to better suit themselves.

In case you're wondering what the Senate is up to now that recess has ended and everything is on fire because of the pandemic:

https://twitter.com/LeslieProll/status/ ... 4423169024

Senate is back today. Although it has confirmed 200+ Trump judges, more judges are first on agenda.

Look at what’s not at top of list:

Cross mark COVID relief
Cross mark Justice in Policing Act
Cross mark Restore Voting Rights Act
Cross mark Fund postal service
Cross mark Protect elections from foreign interference

I keep saying it, but revolutions have happened over less. The only silver lining here is that they're court-packing because they know they're fuct in November. I hope 2021 is known as the year of recalls and impeachment hearings.

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:09 pm I keep saying it, but revolutions have happened over less.

Usually because the revolutionaries had less to lose.

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:09 pm The only silver lining here is that they're court-packing because they know they're fuct in November. I hope 2021 is known as the year of recalls and impeachment hearings.

I look at it more as an attempt to validate the view of, "it's not about Trump, it's about the courts." Common excuse for people to "reluctantly" support Trump.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:13 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:09 pm I keep saying it, but revolutions have happened over less.

Usually because the revolutionaries had less to lose.

We are steadily getting there. Some economists are talking about a "K" recovery where the top half is getting richer and the bottom half is *going hungry*. In July Americans saved ~$3T dollars while 1 in 7 didn't have steady access to food and 33% missed partially or fully missed rent/mortgage payments.

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:38 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:13 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:09 pm I keep saying it, but revolutions have happened over less.

Usually because the revolutionaries had less to lose.

We are steadily getting there. Some economists are talking about a "K" recovery where the top half is getting richer and the bottom half is *going hungry*. In July Americans saved ~$3T dollars while 1 in 7 didn't have steady access to food and 33% missed partially or fully missed rent/mortgage payments.

Yeah, they've been beating the K shaped recovery drum on CNBC for a few weeks. Like that is even a recovery, let alone acceptable. But we're still not close to revolution yet. 24-7-365 protests?
Certainly. Impassee in DC? probably. Coup d'etat attempt? Possibly (*reserves bunker for December 2020*). But still a long way from revolution.

Revolution is obviously extreme. But rioting (over food)? Unrest? Definitely possible.

Edit: Telling anecdote - my wife's team did a skate against racism handing out goodie bags. People got wind there was a $10 gift card to McD's in it and it turned into mayhem. That gift card was the least valuable thing in the bag.

Yup. We're 6 months into this and the federal government has given out $1200 to qualifying people; it's insulting. Locally there seems to be more food pantry / donation activity on social media. I guess when the CDC magically fixes evictions (somehow) everything will be fine.

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:13 pm Yup. We're 6 months into this and the federal government has given out $1200 to qualifying people; it's insulting. Locally there seems to be more food pantry / donation activity on social media. I guess when the CDC magically fixes evictions (somehow) everything will be fine.

Wasn't the federal government responsible for the $600 a week increase in unemployment from April to July? That meant about $1800 to me (until I have to pay taxes on it) while I was on furlough. Others were actually making more on unemployment than they were making going to work. That's not to say it was all enough or put the right places but the $1200 to qualifying people is a bit under selling it. Where it all went off the rails IMO, is when the Senate went home without even an acknowledgement that they were letting he trough run dry without a plan.

Sure, I guess if you could get it. There were people that waited for months here in NJ just to get confirmation from unemployment that they qualified. The whole system imploded because of the surge in demand after we shut down. If only there was some way to generate and pay money to people quickly. Like maybe a system used by the federal government to provide income tax refunds? Nah, that would be crazy.

Also, F Mitch McConnell.

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:46 pm Revolution is obviously extreme. But rioting (over food)? Unrest? Definitely possible.

Edit: Telling anecdote - my wife's team did a skate against racism handing out goodie bags. People got wind there was a $10 gift card to McD's in it and it turned into mayhem. That gift card was the least valuable thing in the bag.

To be fair, you can advertise a free donut and they'll line up around the block.

Getting unemployment in Michigan was no problem... as long as you didn't have a problem. I had a question, spent three days trying to get to an entity that could answer my question before giving up and just filling the blanks as best I could. To date there have no problems with my answer, so I suspect it was either for demographic purposes or for no purpose whatsoever. But answering incorrectly, is pretty terrifying when your livelihood is at stake.

As to the NJ problem, well, that sounds like it was a NJ problem, not a federal problem.

The point being that was probably the best attempt by the federal government (way better than their business relief attempt or the stimulus check or deferring social security taxes and rent or writing off your vacation travel expenses (whatever becomes of that)) to get money where money was needed and quickly and even though it was considerably more than $1200 if you qualify, it was still too little, if nothing else, at least in scope of duration.

But yeah, F McConnell.

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:28 pm

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:46 pm Revolution is obviously extreme. But rioting (over food)? Unrest? Definitely possible.

Edit: Telling anecdote - my wife's team did a skate against racism handing out goodie bags. People got wind there was a $10 gift card to McD's in it and it turned into mayhem. That gift card was the least valuable thing in the bag.

To be fair, you can advertise a free donut and they'll line up around the block.

I've seen stuff like that, usually driving buy thinking "Soandso offered free suchandsuch today. I should get a suchandsuch." and inevitably just keep driving because that $4 sandwich or $1.50 taco or $.95 doughnut is just not worth an hour or more of my time.

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm $.95 doughnut is just not worth an hour or more of my time.

It's been a while since you bought a donut...or at least a Krispy Kreme one. An original is $1.19, an "assorted" are $1.39 and the "specialty" are $1.79 and up.

stessier wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:00 pm

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm $.95 doughnut is just not worth an hour or more of my time.

It's been a while since you bought a donut...or at least a Krispy Kreme one. An original is $1.19, an "assorted" are $1.39 and the "specialty" are $1.79 and up.

You got me. I was gonna put $.50 but then realized there is no way a single doughnut is still $.50.

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm Getting unemployment in Michigan was no problem... as long as you didn't have a problem. I had a question, spent three days trying to get to an entity that could answer my question before giving up and just filling the blanks as best I could. To date there have no problems with my answer, so I suspect it was either for demographic purposes or for no purpose whatsoever. But answering incorrectly, is pretty terrifying when your livelihood is at stake.

As to the NJ problem, well, that sounds like it was a NJ problem, not a federal problem.

There were reports that there were widespread issues across the country. The volume overwhelmed many states' capacity to file. Problems that required human intervention often went long periods to get resolved. I have a friend in NY who had trouble filing and didn't get it resolved until June. She started calling in early April.

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:13 pm

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm Getting unemployment in Michigan was no problem... as long as you didn't have a problem. I had a question, spent three days trying to get to an entity that could answer my question before giving up and just filling the blanks as best I could. To date there have no problems with my answer, so I suspect it was either for demographic purposes or for no purpose whatsoever. But answering incorrectly, is pretty terrifying when your livelihood is at stake.

As to the NJ problem, well, that sounds like it was a NJ problem, not a federal problem.

There were reports that there were widespread issues across the country. The volume overwhelmed many states' capacity to file. Problems that required human intervention often went long periods to get resolved. I have a friend in NY who had trouble filing and didn't get it resolved until June. She started calling in early April.

Also, Florida's (online) Unemployment system was apparently designed to discourage people from signing up.

LordMortis wrote:

stessier wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:00 pm

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm $.95 doughnut is just not worth an hour or more of my time.

It's been a while since you bought a donut...or at least a Krispy Kreme one. An original is $1.19, an "assorted" are $1.39 and the "specialty" are $1.79 and up.

You got me. I was gonna put $.50 but then realized there is no way a single doughnut is still $.50.

How much is a Jet 10?

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:36 pm

LordMortis wrote:

stessier wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:00 pm

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm $.95 doughnut is just not worth an hour or more of my time.

It's been a while since you bought a donut...or at least a Krispy Kreme one. An original is $1.19, an "assorted" are $1.39 and the "specialty" are $1.79 and up.

You got me. I was gonna put $.50 but then realized there is no way a single doughnut is still $.50.

How much is a Jet 10?

I've had that but once in 2020 but the large was around $18 before delivery and tip. I think I paid around $25. Maybe $27-$30. When last I ordered several times a year an X-Large was about $24 pick up.

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:13 pm

LordMortis wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:42 pm Getting unemployment in Michigan was no problem... as long as you didn't have a problem. I had a question, spent three days trying to get to an entity that could answer my question before giving up and just filling the blanks as best I could. To date there have no problems with my answer, so I suspect it was either for demographic purposes or for no purpose whatsoever. But answering incorrectly, is pretty terrifying when your livelihood is at stake.

As to the NJ problem, well, that sounds like it was a NJ problem, not a federal problem.

There were reports that there were widespread issues across the country. The volume overwhelmed many states' capacity to file. Problems that required human intervention often went long periods to get resolved. I have a friend in NY who had trouble filing and didn't get it resolved until June. She started calling in early April.

This is where OO becomes the liberal sounding board. The original statement was:

We're 6 months into this and the federal government has given out $1200 to qualifying people; it's insulting

Implying that is the only relief provided to "the people" and it's clearly untrue.

LordMortis wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:23 amThis is where OO becomes the liberal sounding board. The original statement was:

We're 6 months into this and the federal government has given out $1200 to qualifying people; it's insulting

Implying that is the only relief provided to "the people" and it's clearly untrue.

As a point of order, I'd likely say it's more socialist.

I believe the federal government has an obligation to protect and promote the health of all people, especially during times of crisis. Imagine (for example) if we had a program in place where money was regularly provided to both the elderly and those unable to financially provide for themselves. This would be similar, though shorter-term and wider in application.

The idea that the federal government turned its back on the states (and by proxy then, the very people in them) is unthinkable to me. And yet here we are. If that makes me a [political label], then so be it.