Octopus Overlords

I found this video to be very interesting. It doesn't go where you think it does. I watched it at 1.5x speed.

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:59 am So I'm guessing your next point may be something along the lines of, "OK but does the NFL have to officially get involved beyond just the players doing something?" And here you get to whether the NFL should be responsive to its workforce or not. Should they risk alienating part of their audience by taking stances on social issues? On the other hand, are they going to risk alienating part of their audience if they don't take a stand on social issues? Personally, I'm OK with corporations and organizations like the NFL taking stands. In this case, they're taking a stand for what I think is a good cause (equality). If they took a stand I disagreed with, I could certainly evaluate whether I wanted to continue watching.

I think Chick-Fil-A falls into this type of analysis for me. I find their politics abhorrent, but I love their product. So I chose to treat it simply as an exchange of a product for compensation and work against the rest in other ways. I know others come down on the other side. Everyone's evaluation will be different and anyone is free to speak up for or against it. But don't expect everyone to agree with you or not try and tell you you're viewpoint is wrong. Such is life.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:44 am Maybe when sports are played by robots programmed by robots. Until then, there are humans involved and when shit is hitting the fan they may want to say something about it.

So the people that go out to eat and get bombarded with taunts and threats because they just want to eat their dinner are wrong and the ones calling them racists for not raising their fist in goose step with the taunters are right because THEY want to say something about it damn it and fuck you for not participating?

There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:44 am Maybe when sports are played by robots programmed by robots. Until then, there are humans involved and when shit is hitting the fan they may want to say something about it.

So the people that go out to eat and get bombarded with taunts and threats because they just want to eat their dinner are wrong and the ones calling them racists for not raising their fist in goose step with the taunters are right because THEY want to say something about it damn it and fuck you for not participating?

What on earth would make you think that LawBeefaroni was saying anything like that?

non se·qui·tur
/ˌnän ˈsekwədər/
noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.
"his weird mixed metaphors and non sequiturs"

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

Fuck off.

El Guapo wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:21 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:44 am Maybe when sports are played by robots programmed by robots. Until then, there are humans involved and when shit is hitting the fan they may want to say something about it.

So the people that go out to eat and get bombarded with taunts and threats because they just want to eat their dinner are wrong and the ones calling them racists for not raising their fist in goose step with the taunters are right because THEY want to say something about it damn it and fuck you for not participating?

What on earth would make you think that LawBeefaroni was saying anything like that?

I don't know. We're just throwing shit out there now.
Some may feel that the time to say something is during Mr. and Mrs. Jones dessert.
Some may feel it's when standing in line to buy avocados.
Some may feel it's during a sports game.
Some are right and some are wrong? I don't get it.

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:23 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

Fuck off.

Doesn't feel good, does it?

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:18 am

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:12 am So the violence and illegal acts are acceptable to you guys because you deem them to be such a small percentage.
Got it.

Not acceptable. No one said it was acceptable but you know that.

Exactly. That's like us saying that because you don't want them taking any kind of stance against racial violence, that you support cops murdering black people. Do you support that? No? Then stop making ridiculous claims.

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:24 pmI don't know. We're just throwing shit out there now.
Some may feel that the time to say something is during Mr. and Mrs. Jones dessert.
Some may feel it's when standing in line to buy avocados.
Some may feel it's during a sports game.
Some are right and some are wrong? I don't get it.

Show me on the doll where Antifa touched you.

But seriously, you seem really, really fired up over this. I like that you're raising awareness, but it feels like you've spent magnitudes of order more time complaining about the NFL raising awareness of BLM than the NFL has has spent in support of BLM. You're free to spend your time however you'd like but I'm genuinely confused this is the hill you're choosing to die on.

If you don't want to support BLM (or whatever else is happening), no one is going to force you. But if you're going to openly complain about being subjected to other Americans engaging in (limited) social justice campaigns, well...

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:44 am Maybe when sports are played by robots programmed by robots. Until then, there are humans involved and when shit is hitting the fan they may want to say something about it.

So the people that go out to eat and get bombarded with taunts and threats because they just want to eat their dinner are wrong and the ones calling them racists for not raising their fist in goose step with the taunters are right because THEY want to say something about it damn it and fuck you for not participating?

And this is how I know you're not acting in good faith and wanting to seriously discuss issues. Your continued creation of bizarre false equivalencies and attempts at playing "Gotcha!" don't show someone who is interested in real discussion.

Double edged sword. You ever think that maybe having my thoughts and opinions labeled as bizarre and ridiculous and false and disingenuous are going to encourage me to want to discuss things further?
Whether you or anyone else understands them, or if I'm not expressing myself in a way that comes across as meaning what I want, I try to post what i think and feel honestly.
Then it gets shit upon and I do go off the rails trying to defend myself or clarify what I was trying to say. Then it only goes on and on.

But I know that you know better. I didn't start out calling them bizarre, but when you continue to do it after I pointed out that they were false equivalencies, well . . . .

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:50 pm But I know that you know better. I didn't start out calling them bizarre, but when you continue to do it after I pointed out that they were false equivalencies, well . . . .

And that's what I mean. They may seem like false equivalencies to you, but to me they are me trying to further explain whatever point I'm trying to make that's apparently not being made.
When LawBeef says something like, well, NFL players are human and they may have things to say, I'm thinking, we're all human and we all have things to say. To me, it's the where, when and how that is important. Equating it to people just wanting to eat their dinner is the same as me just wanting to watch sports to me. Those people may support the hell out of BLM. Doesn't mean they have to wear it like an "I VOTED" badge and never get a respite..

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:44 am Maybe when sports are played by robots programmed by robots. Until then, there are humans involved and when shit is hitting the fan they may want to say something about it.

So the people that go out to eat and get bombarded with taunts and threats because they just want to eat their dinner are wrong and the ones calling them racists for not raising their fist in goose step with the taunters are right because THEY want to say something about it damn it and fuck you for not participating?

Dinner? The hell are you talking about? I mean I know the incident you're talking about but it is completely unrelated and just another tangent for you to get off on. Your are not making any sort of good faith effort to discuss this.


Call me when am NFL player walks into your living room uninvited to protest. Otherwise don't like the product? Don't buy it.

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:55 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:50 pm But I know that you know better. I didn't start out calling them bizarre, but when you continue to do it after I pointed out that they were false equivalencies, well . . . .

And that's what I mean. They mean seem like false equivalencies to you, but to me they are me trying to further explain whatever point I'm trying to make that's apparently not being made.

A better approach may be to ask me why I think they're false equivalencies than to double down and add more of them. Heck, maybe you'd have some great counter-arguments as to why they're actually not false equivalencies and I'd stand down.

I think they're false equivalencies because all the other activities you raise are very much different from the NFL and watching the NFL.

stimpy wrote: Video games?

First, they're nothing like football (well, except maybe Madden). There's no national anthem to kneel to. No touchdown celebrations to raise a fist during. Second, many video games do include a social agenda, but it's typically addressed more through story than through on-field logos.

Jogging?

Huh? I don't even know how to compare jogging to watching the NFL. Would you need to sit through a tolerance lecture to buy running shoes?

Going out to eat?

Does the menu in your example include "BLM" logos on it? Is the food named after civil rights figures? Again, I just don't see how you compare this to football. If you're talking about that incident where a couple was being pressured to proclaim solidarity with BLM while they were eating out as a protest went past, that's again not anything close to watching a football game and seeing "End Racism" painted in the end zone.

Concerts?

I went to a Drive-by Truckers concert shortly after Trump took office where the band led the crowd in chanting "R-E-S-I-S-T" at the end. Depending on the artist, I think many people might actually expect some level of social awareness.

Salt cave?

Am I mining salt in this example? Just gathering for my home use? Can I at least continue to label this one as bizarre?

Agreed, ILB. There are video games with strong social messages, both admirable and not so admirable. I have seen more than one concert where politics are part of the music and part of the performance. In both those instances, I can vote with my feet and dollars if I think it's inappropriate.

Artists, musicians and athletes deserve to be able to speak their feelings. I find Jon Mcnaughton's right wing hagiography repellant, but he can paint whatever the fuck he wants. If the NFL wants to make their highly soughtafter and talented players happy, even if they are cynical bastards and don't believe it themselves, then that sounds like a wise business decision. If you don't like it, then tell them so. If enough people do so, then maybe they will reverse that decision. I don't remember you being bent out of shape when the military paid the NFL to turn the pregame show into a patriotic recruiting drive.

For me, if I can manage to go through life not punching assholes with MAGA hats, a few minutes of BLM on TV shouldn't be a bridge too far.

gbasden wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:27 pm For me, if I can manage to go through life not punching assholes with MAGA hats, a few minutes of BLM on TV shouldn't be a bridge too far.

But...but...it's FOOTBALL. Can't you understand how creating awareness of inequality in a way that has no practical effect on the actual playing of the game itself can be (at the very worst) mildly inconveniencing to white people? The sheer horror!! How dare they tread on that most sacred of American grounds in such a way.

(seriously though, your point cannot be overstated)

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

I prefer the movement where people quote Isgrimnur in their sigs.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:58 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:44 am Maybe when sports are played by robots programmed by robots. Until then, there are humans involved and when shit is hitting the fan they may want to say something about it.

So the people that go out to eat and get bombarded with taunts and threats because they just want to eat their dinner are wrong and the ones calling them racists for not raising their fist in goose step with the taunters are right because THEY want to say something about it damn it and fuck you for not participating?

Dinner? The hell are you talking about? I mean I know the incident you're talking about but it is completely unrelated and just another tangent for you to get off on. Your are not making any sort of good faith effort to discuss this.


Call me when am NFL player walks into your living room uninvited to protest. Otherwise don't like the product? Don't buy it.

I'm not sure it's bad faith. I get the sense that he may be doing the best he can. I think this just may be a bridge too far, and a discussion of false equivalencies and non sequiturs isn't going to do much to cross it. stimpy is speaking from the gut. This is what he knows. Nothing you or anyone here says is really going to change that. Trying to do so is tilting at windmills.

Alefroth wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:09 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

I prefer the movement where people quote Isgrimnur in their sigs.

Ooooooooo.....that's not very supportive.......

I know I'm biased because I support the movement, but seriously I can't think of an activity I love where I would be pissed off to see a message of equality. I guess if you think it's all contrived, maybe? I guess I'm just blind to seeing how saying "Let's maybe not murder so many black people" in such a way that it does not interrupt the game is objectionable.

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:12 pm

Alefroth wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:09 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

I prefer the movement where people quote Isgrimnur in their sigs.

Ooooooooo.....that's not very supportive.......

Is there where I get butthurt?

Alefroth wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:17 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:12 pm

Alefroth wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:09 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

I prefer the movement where people quote Isgrimnur in their sigs.

Ooooooooo.....that's not very supportive.......

Is there where I get butthurt?

Could be. What kinda lube you using?

gbasden wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:16 pm I know I'm biased because I support the movement, but seriously I can't think of an activity I love where I would be pissed off to see a message of equality. I guess if you think it's all contrived, maybe? I guess I'm just blind to seeing how saying "Let's maybe not murder so many black people" in such a way that it does not interrupt the game is objectionable.

I guess if the NFL Kickers Association (are they the whitest or is it the QBs?) starting parading the Blue Line flags or whatever they are called at half-time, we might be more upset.

Of course that isn't a message of equality, but it may be how some people see the BLM stuff.

Social awareness is still pretty new to our society and it's taking time for it to percolate and it is certainly causing some... reactions.

Alefroth wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:09 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

I prefer the movement where people quote Isgrimnur in their sigs.

I'm trying to think of a way I can incorporate both, but I am not sure they really work together.

coopasonic wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:25 pm

Alefroth wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:09 pm

stimpy wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:20 pm There is a movement on OO to show our solidarity with the Black people and posters by changing our signatures to reflect our feelings.
Obviously those of you who haven't are racist and don't support the cause.

I prefer the movement where people quote Isgrimnur in their sigs.

I'm trying to think of a way I can incorporate both, but I am not sure they really work together.

I like to think I succeeded.

coopasonic wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:24 pm

gbasden wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:16 pm I know I'm biased because I support the movement, but seriously I can't think of an activity I love where I would be pissed off to see a message of equality. I guess if you think it's all contrived, maybe? I guess I'm just blind to seeing how saying "Let's maybe not murder so many black people" in such a way that it does not interrupt the game is objectionable.

I guess if the NFL Kickers Association (are they the whitest or is it the QBs?) starting parading the Blue Line flags or whatever they are called at half-time, we might be more upset.

Of course that isn't a message of equality, but it may be how some people see the BLM stuff.

Social awareness is still pretty new to our society and it's taking time for it to percolate and it is certainly causing some... reactions.

Sure, I totally understand the point. I think if it got to a point where I didn't feel I could support that, I would simply register my disapproval by consuming some other sort of entertainment that I don't find repellent. I don't argue that Kid Rock shouldn't be able to make shitty music and kiss Trump's ass, I just go out of my way to make sure I don't contribute a dime to him.

coopasonic wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:24 pm Of course that isn't a message of equality, but it may be how some people see the BLM stuff.

The difference is Blue Line flags have no equality interpretation. Understanding BLM means understanding the equality message. That difference matters in how I see the supporters of each movement.

stimpy wrote:So the violence and illegal acts are acceptable to you guys because you deem them to be such a small percentage.
Got it.

No.

They aren’t a league-wide “problem” if NFL players are significantly less likely to commit those crimes than the general population.

Not to mention that you have things like what happened to Ed Oliver, who was arrested for a DUI despite registering a 0.0 BAC, and confirming that with a blood test.

Are there pieces of shit that play in the NFL? Of course. But not nearly as many as your brain wants to believe. The overwhelming majority of NFL players are VASTLY better citizens and human beings than you are.

stimpy wrote:Well people sure the hell go out of their way to constantly dispute what I post.
Why?

It’s because you’re constantly saying dumb, wrong things.

RunningMn9 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:04 pm The overwhelming majority of NFL players are VASTLY better citizens and human beings than you are.

This hurts considering how well you've known me for all these years........
I WAS THE BEST MAN AT YOUR WEDDING FOR GOD"S SAKE!!!!!

coopasonic wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:24 pm

gbasden wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:16 pm I know I'm biased because I support the movement, but seriously I can't think of an activity I love where I would be pissed off to see a message of equality. I guess if you think it's all contrived, maybe? I guess I'm just blind to seeing how saying "Let's maybe not murder so many black people" in such a way that it does not interrupt the game is objectionable.

I guess if the NFL Kickers Association (are they the whitest or is it the QBs?) starting parading the Blue Line flags or whatever they are called at half-time, we might be more upset.

Of course that isn't a message of equality, but it may be how some people see the BLM stuff.

Social awareness is still pretty new to our society and it's taking time for it to percolate and it is certainly causing some... reactions.

Getting close here, I think. My .02 - this is just putting a microscope to the us vs them...motif we've got ravaging our country presently. Teams. Sides. Tribes.

I think the macro view of the kneeling, and BLM, protests, etc, is that those things are "liberal". Kinda like mask wearing. I would love to see a graph showing a correlation (or not) of mask wearing compared to how liberal someone claims they are.
I would bet a LOT of money that the more liberal someone claims to be, the more consistently they wear masks and social distance, etc. Bet the inverse is true also, where you have let's say hardcore Trump supporters not only not wearing masks, EVER, but actively poo-pooing them.

Same with the NFL situation. It's very much a political (and social) issue split mostly down party lines, so again, I would bet a lot of money, a graph correlated with political leaning would show right leaners against the kneeling, and left leaners supporting it. Us/them. Liberals/Democrats vs Trumpsters and Freedom Party types.

I really think a lot of people are on political auto-pilot these days, where the actual facts of a particular "event" are not as important as "which side is my side on?" and then boom, they fall in line. Because of the extreme polarization we are living, it's that much harder for people on either "side" to voice opinions counter to the herd mentality of their group. Heaven forbid someone on Team Trump supports something perceived to be an action supported by the nasty liberals! And vice versa.

stimpy wrote:This hurts considering how well you've known me for all these years........
I WAS THE BEST MAN AT YOUR WEDDING FOR GOD"S SAKE!!!!!

Thankfully you advertise who you are, loudly and proudly.

Edit: to be fair, Smoove_B actually was the best man at my wedding, and most NFL players are better than him too.

MAAD- Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

Not belonging to MAAD does not mean you aren't against drunk driving.

Belonging to MAAD doesn't mean you don't care about other issues.

I feel like a calm, thoughtful, articulate Trump supporter who came among us to make reasonable arguments and offer their views without trolling or making intentional offense would receive a polite hearing. Most of us wouldn't agree, probably, but we would welcome the tone.

Why is it, I wonder, that we never see one of those?

Holman wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:37 pm I feel like a calm, thoughtful, articulate Trump supporter who came among us to make reasonable arguments and offer their views without trolling or making intentional offense would receive a polite hearing. Most of us wouldn't agree, probably, but we would welcome the tone.

Why is it, I wonder, that we never see one of those?

You mean like Ben Shapiro? That guy is a bigger asshole than most of the rabid mouth breathers.

Jaymann wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:46 pm

Holman wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:37 pm I feel like a calm, thoughtful, articulate Trump supporter who came among us to make reasonable arguments and offer their views without trolling or making intentional offense would receive a polite hearing. Most of us wouldn't agree, probably, but we would welcome the tone.

Why is it, I wonder, that we never see one of those?

You mean like Ben Shapiro? That guy is a bigger asshole than most of the rabid mouth breathers.

I don't mean Ben Shapiro because he flees like a cornered rat at the slightest pushback.

But I was really talking about the way we interact here at OO. I know it's impolite to name names, but most of our Trumpers here have abandoned R&P not because we didn't give them a hearing but because we pushed back on trolling and bullshit.

One could be forgiven for thinking that trolling and bullshit is all that they've got.